Official Discussion of 7.11 "Showtime" (UPN-US)

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i doubt giles is in england with the coven because willow talked to the coven in one of the last episodes and dont u think they would have mentioned he wasnt there or something??? and the coven ask for him right???
 
Maybe they want to protect Buffy and Willow from Giles' coma (and potential death) until this is over? But even that sounds doubtful, since axe wounds to the neck tend not to put people in comas.

And I don't understand what all this "Dawn telepathy" talk is. It was Buffy's voice--it never even occured to me it was Dawn's.
 
I have a couple of things to say about this thread...

1.- about the Turok-Han discussion, do you remember the story behind the origin of regular vampires??? they where here before christianity as well, so why is it now a controversy with the Turok-Han?

2.- about the FE being in two different places at the same time, i have to things to say about this: first, in "Amends" the first in a long speech stated it was everywhere, so if it is technically everywhere why is it so hard to believe that it was inpersonating both Giles and Eve (though, i hope giles ain't the FE) and second, from the way I see it, it's already a fact that it CAN be in 2 places, why? because in "CWDP", at the beginning of the episode it said what time it was, something that had never happened in a buffy episode, and all of the stories where taking place at the same time. I think the time was given to make the audience understand that it CAN be in different places at the same time

well, those are my two cents.. have a good day!

PS: I still support my theory that when Willow tried the locating spell on the first, she found it inside her because it exists in every one (like it said in amends)
 
About 1, I have never heard this story addressed on Buffy. If it has, and if does say vampires predate organized religion, it is totally inconsistent with vampire mythology as it is now widely known.

About 2, another storyline in CWDP would've had to verify the time as well, a plot device silmilar to when Willow came home from rehab, in order to confirm that the First can be in two places at once. I don't remember that happening--does anyone know?
 
1.- first episode, when the last demon left our reality it bit a man infecting the human soul, which bit another and another bla bla bla
also, if you don't remember, the first slayer is kinda a cave woman, and there was no vatican hiding in the caves!!!
and how is it inconsistent? bullets were invented thousand of years after me existed, and still if i shoot you.. YOU DIE!


2.- why do they have to verify the time again? it's pretty clear that everything is happening at the same time!!
 
1. It isn't the symbolism of the bullet that kills you, it's the metal racing into your body. I've wondered about the cave woman myself, but honestly there's no indication that she's prehistoric--and none that I remember saying she's over two thousand years old. Having dreads and living in Africa doesn't mean you're ancient. I have no idea how old she is, though.

Vampire myth in pop culture would have definitely started with Vlad of Tepes, who is decidely post-Catholic. I guess Buffy differs on this? That's strange, because they honor the icon of Dracula (the fictional recreation of Tepes), which...makes no sense.

2. I thought it was fairly obvious that on TV when they cut away to another scene that there's no guarantee that the time is progressing consistently. Sometimes it shows Willow doing one thing during the day, and then--cut--Buffy is in a graveyard at night. I don't think the sun disappered suddenly--the narrative progressed to another time. Isn't that issue the basis of 24? It's the one show where the narrative does progress consistently.

This isn't to say that the First can be in two places at once, but just that they're putting it in our heads that either is a possibility.

Also, if the First can be as many things as it wants, why not just assume the form of a million ghosts and enter Buffy's house? At the very least, no one would be able to see anything, since the apparations are opaque. Then have the eyeless monks attack. Gosh, I should work for the First, because I have some good strategies here. Ha.
 
1.- with the crosses, it's not symbolic, it's physical... the cross physically hurts the vampire (very good demonstration at the end of Beneath You)

In Buffy, the vampires have existed since the old demons left our reality, leaving this world to the mortal kind (humans) vampires where created there

in buffy dracula wasn't the first vampire, and actually in most popular myths he isn't, he is just the first in the novel!! the myth existed before stoker wrote it

in buffy dracula is just another vampire who according to spike is worst than most slayers because he became famous, and then everybody know how to kill them

2.-what i mean is this, there have been 130+ buffy episodes, in none of them they have told us what time is it at the beginning of the episode, in CWDP they do, why? i believe it is because they wanted to show us how the first was being different people at the same time

the holden/buffy storyline and the cassie/willow HAD to be at the same time, because none of them were at home while Dawn had his Joyce situation, and when they both came back home the next episode, it was news for them! which means it didn't happen in different nights
the only storyline left is warren/andrew/jonathan which i think happened at the same time because they showed us the time while they were driving back
 
Holden wasn't the First but a vamp, and wether Joyce was the First or not, remains a question!
 
Originally posted by Lorne The Host
2.-what i mean is this, there have been 130+ buffy episodes, in none of them they have told us what time is it at the beginning of the episode, in CWDP they do, why? i believe it is because they wanted to show us how the first was being different people at the same time
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Yeah, I agree with you there.

I believe "Warren" and "Cassie" were the only ones who were being portrayed by the First, and they are clearly taking place at the same time. Besides the whole 'they told us the time at the beginning of the episode', here's how we know: Right after "Warren" talks to Andrew in the school hallway, it cuts to Willow talking to "Cassie". Willow and "Cassie" are clearly in the middle of the conversation that the started in the beginning of the episode. The whole time "Warren" is in the hallway with Andrew, "Cassie" is talking to Willow. It's as clear as day that it's happening at the same time. "Cassie" didn't leave Willow for a little bit to turn into "Warren" in the school hallway.
 
I know Holden was a regular vamp!!!! I brought that up because the reason Buffy wasn't at home when the Joyce/Dawn incident happened, is because she was fighting Holden, the same for Willow/Cassie
 
Lorne, I think you're misunderstanding me about the cross, and Dracula in general, but lore is probably for another thread.



Hmmm, Five, I wouldn't say it was "as clear as day". I would say it's suggestive. Unless both scenes are specifically dated to the minute, you can't guarantee anything. In other words, as soon as a "cut" happens, anything is fair game. Maybe Willow and Cassie weren't together during the time "Warren" existed. Maybe Willow had to pee. Maybe the First had to smoke. That's simply the rule of television--unless we see it happen, we can't completely predict the narrative. I do agree, though, that it's certainly suggestive.

One question, though--why then does the First change bodies (as in going from Eve to Buffy)? Why not just be Eve AND Buffy if it can assume two forms? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to change, particularly since in doing so, Spike's belief in the fake Buffy is undermined. Until now, the First does this one-into-the-other routine. I find it hard to believe that's simply a choice it makes. Maybe it can only assume two forms for two people. Who knows. I need more episodes NOW!
 
Originally posted by The First
One question, though--why then does the First change bodies (as in going from Eve to Buffy)? Why not just be Eve AND Buffy if it can assume two forms? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to change, particularly since in doing so, Spike's belief in the fake Buffy is undermined. Until now, the First does this one-into-the-other routine. I find it hard to believe that's simply a choice it makes. Maybe it can only assume two forms for two people. Who knows. I need more episodes NOW!
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This is just a guess, but I'd say that the First did that (changing from Eve to Buffy) so Spike wouldn't know (and be able to tell anyone) that the First is actually capable of doing that. The Scoobies themselves currently do not know that the First is able to be in two places at once (unless I missed something).
 
Oh that makes sense--a little strategy. I guess I can buy that. The only thing, though, is that Andrew and Willow could easily have spoken about their talks with the First. It would be a big assumption on the First's part to assume they would say nothing to each other, or that they wouldn't become allies. It seems like it would just make more sense to encounter them at separate times than to risk "discovery".

Ha--maybe it's just grown overconfident, what with it being older than the universe.
 
Originally posted by The First
Lorne, I think you're misunderstanding me about the cross, and Dracula in general, but lore is probably for another thread.

Hmmm, Five, I wouldn't say it was "as clear as day". I would say it's suggestive. Unless both scenes are specifically dated to the minute, you can't guarantee anything. In other words, as soon as a "cut" happens, anything is fair game. Maybe Willow and Cassie weren't together during the time "Warren" existed. Maybe Willow had to pee. Maybe the First had to smoke. That's simply the rule of television--unless we see it happen, we can't completely predict the narrative. I do agree, though, that it's certainly suggestive.
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I agree with The First about FE's apparent sequences of appearences on "Conversation With Dead People". You can't take anything for granted on TV, and even less in Whedon-world. (Which is *not* to say the FE *didn't* appear as Cassie and Warren at the same time, just that we can't be sure. Yet.)

(Just FYI, the cross itself has been around at least 300 years before Christianity. The Carthaginians used crucifixion to execute their losing generals. The Romans picked it up from them and used it to execute rebellious slaves. They brought it to Judea, where Jesus Christ was crucified. His crucifixion made the cross a symbol of Christianity, but it also may have had earlier, different symbolisms.)
 
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