On a Scale of 1-10 How Much do You Hate Parker?

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neoolong, please discuss this civilly. Your last statement was not necessary.

neoolong said:
I never said he was the villain. Nor the best guy ever. However, none of his actions necessarily mean that he's the biggest douchebag ever. Sure, that's what he's supposed to be portrayed as, but none of his actual dialogue necessarily points in that direction. Much of it is assumption without regard to context. Sure, he could have handled it better, but Buffy's hardly an innocent victim.

Actually, you did say he was written to be the villain. If he was written that way, isn't he indeed the villain? And as the storyline was written with Buffy as the innocent victim, doesn't that mean that she is indeed the innocent victim?
 
And "raging nymphos" were yours. Not the greatest difference.

There certainly is a difference. However, it has nothing to do with any of the points I was trying to make. All of which seem to elude you so I'm done.
 
neoolong, please discuss this civilly. Your last statement was not necessary.

No, but I never said that he was, to quote, "super awesome" either.

Actually, you did say he was written to be the villain. If he was written that way, isn't he indeed the villain?

No. It's the same thing as a designated hero. They may be written to be the hero or the villain, but their actions or even the context of their words doesn't make that so.

An example is how the The Lost World presents Nick Van Owen as heroic, despite the fact that his actions put many people in danger and end up killing people. He's actually quite villainous, but the movie doesn't present it that way, despite the consequences of, say, tampering with Tembo's gun.

And as the storyline was written with Buffy as the innocent victim, doesn't that mean that she is indeed the innocent victim?

Sure, if she was Kendra. But, she's an 18 year old girl from Los Angeles. Exactly why should I believe that she has no experience with love/relationships/sex from either her own experiences or the media? She wasn't particularly sheltered as a child.

So yeah, the storyline may be intended for Buffy to be an innocent victim, but the facts of her life and her situation, as well as Parker telling her that he was doing the whole "living for the moment" thing, say differently.
 
Eh I don't hate him.. he was cute and a smooth talker... i'd hit it 😉 .. I just wouldn't be so pissed if I was Buffy.. I mean he just avoided her... I'd be like... "Um.. it could be worse.. Remember when you slept with Angel and he lost his soul and became evil? Yeah that was way worse!"
 
Sure, if she was Kendra. But, she's an 18 year old girl from Los Angeles. Exactly why should I believe that she has no experience with love/relationships/sex from either her own experiences or the media? She wasn't particularly sheltered as a child.

Actually we know quite a lot of Buffy's relationship history. We know that she had an immature crush on Ford in fifth grade, and I'll say she still seemed fairly innocent when she was called. Then she moved to Sunnydale and we all know that Angel was her first sexual partner. She wasn't particularly sheltered as a child, no, but there is a clear difference between getting an impression of relationships from the media and making your own experiences.

I'd say Buffy was extremely romantic as a young girl. For her at that point in life I think she strongly equated sex with love for her own sake and that she didn't really keep in mind that other people can think differently. You speak as if first year college students are mature adults. They are not. They are still very, very young in many aspects, and their degree of maturity varies greatly both from person to person and within each person.
 
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Buffy Summers
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I don't like Parker much. I think he did use Buffy for sex, and I think that's demonstrated several times within those few episodes.

One thing, I do have to comment on, is Parker using 'live for the moment' as a good thing, as a justification for his actions. Considering we see him saying this to another girl, when Buffy sees him in the cafeteria or wherever, and possibly with Willow? (I can't quite remember), I always took that as him using that as his chat up line. Like he was using this to make him seem like a cool, deep and intense guy. For me, he didn't mean it at all, and it certainly doesn't justify his actions.
 
I don't like Parker much. I think he did use Buffy for sex, and I think that's demonstrated several times within those few episodes.

For me that was the whole point of him. Love him, or hate him, he was there to provide a different and new experience for Buffy regardless of the fact that it be good or bad.
 
For her at that point in life I think she strongly equated sex with love for her own sake and that she didn't really keep in mind that other people can think differently.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head with that statement. For so many people today, sex=love and that is sad 'cause for so many others it obviously doesn't. I think Buffy was hurt because for her, sex was such an intimate, beautiful thing that she shared only with those she loved or wanted to love her, and Parker was totally in it for the fun of the experience, not the deep emotional attachment. I can't fault Parker; he never gave her the impression that he wanted to marry her or anything... I don't hate him. But I don't like him, either, because as Willow said, he is a poophead. Not because he slept with Buffy and didn't want to date her, but because of things like the toilet comment. Bluh.
 
Actually we know quite a lot of Buffy's relationship history. We know that she had an immature crush on Ford in fifth grade, and I'll say she still seemed fairly innocent when she was called. Then she moved to Sunnydale and we all know that Angel was her first sexual partner. She wasn't particularly sheltered as a child, no, but there is a clear difference between getting an impression of relationships from the media and making your own experiences.

If the relationship she had with her boyfriend in the movie is carried over to the Origin comic, that's not all the relationships she had. Not to mention just being in high school with friends and their relationships. And there's sex ed.

Sure she's innocent, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't afforded the opportunity to be aware of what sex is and means to different people.

I'd say Buffy was extremely romantic as a young girl. For her at that point in life I think she strongly equated sex with love for her own sake and that she didn't really keep in mind that other people can think differently. You speak as if first year college students are mature adults. They are not. They are still very, very young in many aspects, and their degree of maturity varies greatly both from person to person and within each person.

Then that's her issue, one she should have cleared up with Parker instead of simply assuming that things are going to go her way. The media in general has enough information about college life that it should be pretty hard for anybody growing up in her socioeconomic and geographical situation to not come away with the knowledge of what college can be like.

---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 AM ----------

Okay, if you want to go on with it (I noticed you dropped everything else):

And I never said anyone was a "slut". But if you can make things up, I can too.

"maybe all the other girls were raging nymphos and didn't mind"

So what did you mean that the other girls were raging nymphos and wouldn't mind Parker's sex and go attitude? And how is that not a slut, which is defined as "a promiscuous woman" according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary?

They're nymphos according to you, which related to "excessive sexual desire," and raging, which in context would relate to "extraordinary." And since they are sleeping with Parker, they would be, according to your phrase, women with excessive sexual desire (the nymphos part) that actually act on it, admittedly it's a presumption of frequency, but according to your scenario, they are acting on the desire, and in an "extraordinary" fashion.

How are they not basically synonyms?

As for what I said, where exactly did I use a quotable phrase that can be taken to mean that he's "super awesome?"

Was it the part where I said that "he's kind of a dick." Because that's usually used as an insult. Or maybe the part where I mentioned "jerkish behavior"? Because the term "jerk" in context, is also usually used as an insult.
 
Wow.

Well they're not the same thing. I'll leave it at that since there seems to be no reasoning with you. Also, because it is entirely off topic.

I dropped the rest cause I've said everything I needed to say regarding the issue. You don't agree and that's fine. Arguing and debating is fun and all, but it's getting a bit redundant. Everyone here seems to be in agreement that he used her for sex and had no genuine interest in her, but you disagree and keep demanding quotes to provide explanations for things that are meant to be self-explanatory.

Now since you've taken to twisting my words and are going to ridiculous lengths to prove I said or implied something that I did not mean to, I'm bored with you.
 
Neoolong, what I'm most interested in by your argument is why you expect BUFFY to be upfront about her intentions, but not Parker.

It is entirely possible that Parker's intentions were innocent....but I don't buy that. Any college guy can go to any college party and hook up with a chick if they're just looking for a one-night stand. That's not what Parker did, at all. He charmed Buffy, he hung out with her for extended periods of time, he gave her lines accompanied by puppy-dog eyes, all the signs were pointing towards him wanting a relationship. I'm sure most of us, when watching S4 for the first time, believed that Parker would be the romance of the season.

It's also possible that he was looking for a friends-with-benefits type relationship...but surely you can agree that friends-with-benefits is more unconventional than a regular relationship? And therefore Parker should have been the one to make his intentions clear? Why should Buffy have assumed that he wanted that sort of relationship when he had never said anything about it? Yet Buffy should have said, "Just so you know, I'm looking for a long-term commitment"....when maybe she didn't even know what she wanted. That's possible, too. Perhaps she was just going with the flow of things to see where they went, while at the same time not expecting Parker to completely ditch her after he got what he wanted.

Because that's what he did. You can make arguments all day long, but it doesn't get rid of the fact that directly after he had sex with Buffy, all contact from him to her ceased. And that's not a coincidence. I don't understand, then, your argument that he didn't use her. I'll repeat, he could have had a one-night stand (and made his intentions perfectly clear beforehand) with anybody. He didn't. He chose to be vague, to lead girls on in an ambiquitous way so that afterwards when they confronted him he could say, "I thought we were clear on everything." He's a slimeball.

But oh, maybe he was looking for something, and then got scared off by Buffy's clingyness? Tell me, where exactly between the time they had sex and the time she confronted him on campus did she act shockingly clingy? Was it clingy to check her voicemail or answering machine? Was that really so clingy? Because that's all she did. She didn't stalk him, I don't believe we even have evidence that she called him. She checked her messages. Oh, how creepy and stalkerish of her! Before the sex, they had appeared to be on the same page. Parker initiated communication and contact just as much as Buffy did. They both got along well and there is no evidence to support that Buffy sought Parker out more than he did her. So that claim is pretty unfounded, if you ask me.

You can not dislike Parker, that's fine. But to not dislike him for assumptions with no ground in what actually happened, or to discredit Buffy's motives because she wasn't upfront about them without discrediting Parker's, isn't fair.
 
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Buffy Summers
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Well said :)
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BuffyElevated
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WOW!! Hear, hear! VERY well said!
Neoolong, what I'm most interested in by your argument is why you expect BUFFY to be upfront about her intentions, but not Parker.

I never said he shouldn't. However, he actually was fairly upfront with his intentions. He talks about living for the now, or "live for today" as he puts it. It really shouldn't be a surprise when he does exactly that.

It is entirely possible that Parker's intentions were innocent....but I don't buy that. Any college guy can go to any college party and hook up with a chick if they're just looking for a one-night stand.

Not necessarily, but it isn't that Parker was looking to have sex, but that he wanted to have sex with Buffy. Ergo, he wasn't going to go random completely.

That's not what Parker did, at all. He charmed Buffy, he hung out with her for extended periods of time, he gave her lines accompanied by puppy-dog eyes, all the signs were pointing towards him wanting a relationship. I'm sure most of us, when watching S4 for the first time, believed that Parker would be the romance of the season.

Despite him talking about living in the now? With the mentions of that, I would have expected friends with benefits at most. Hookup at least. Or somewhere in the middle since he was interacting with her beforehand.

Or, do you think that someone that expresses a desire to only live in the moment is honestly thinking about a relationship?

It's also possible that he was looking for a friends-with-benefits type relationship...but surely you can agree that friends-with-benefits is more unconventional than a regular relationship? And therefore Parker should have been the one to make his intentions clear?

Sure, but he basically did make his intentions clear. He says he lives in the now, and then he makes the approach of wanting to sleep with Buffy. Not that hard to figure out, and Buffy could have said no at any time.

Why should Buffy have assumed that he wanted that sort of relationship when he had never said anything about it? Yet Buffy should have said, "Just so you know, I'm looking for a long-term commitment"....when maybe she didn't even know what she wanted. That's possible, too. Perhaps she was just going with the flow of things to see where they went, while at the same time not expecting Parker to completely ditch her after he got what he wanted.

Or she freaked him out by being what he considered clingy or when she pretty much stated she was looking for a longer term thing. There's a number of possibilities, none of them are all him just ditching her without reason.

If she really wanted something more than "living in the now" maybe she should have mentioned something when he said that he was "living in the now."

Because that's what he did. You can make arguments all day long, but it doesn't get rid of the fact that directly after he had sex with Buffy, all contact from him to her ceased. And that's not a coincidence.

Because you say so? He says he's going to call her, without establishing a timeline. He could be planning a three to five day callback period. Who knows. She approaches him, which could cause him to back off. That's a maybe, but there's nothing explictly saying that he's going to just ignore her without further interaction. The way it's handled is that she implies she wants more, he says it was clear what he wanted, they want different things so it ends.

I don't understand, then, your argument that he didn't use her. I'll repeat, he could have had a one-night stand (and made his intentions perfectly clear beforehand) with anybody. He didn't. He chose to be vague, to lead girls on in an ambiquitous way so that afterwards when they confronted him he could say, "I thought we were clear on everything." He's a slimeball.

"It make me think about, you know, living for now...I mean, everybody says they get it. 'Oh, man. Me too. Live for today.' But what they really want is a reason to goof off. Not study for finals."

So, exactly where in that is he not being pretty clear about where he's coming from? That's not really vague at all.

If a guy was making out with a girl and was going to bring her back to his place, and then says that he's living in the moment and only thinking about tonight, do you honestly think that means he's looking for a real relationship?

But oh, maybe he was looking for something, and then got scared off by Buffy's clingyness? Tell me, where exactly between the time they had sex and the time she confronted him on campus did she act shockingly clingy? Was it clingy to check her voicemail or answering machine? Was that really so clingy? Because that's all she did.

Wrong timeline. The time she confronted him on campus could be construed as being clingy, but mostly that she implies a relationship. Where did he say he was going to call her at exactly a certain time? It's established that it's only been a few days, which isn't outside an acceptable range of callbacks.

She confronts him with the implication that she expected more, so he clears it up and then that's the end. Could he have done it more nicely? Sure, but he already prefaced it with the whole "living in the now" thing. Why should Buffy get a pass for not listening to what he was saying?

She didn't stalk him, I don't believe we even have evidence that she called him. She checked her messages. Oh, how creepy and stalkerish of her! Before the sex, they had appeared to be on the same page. Parker initiated communication and contact just as much as Buffy did.

Buffy : You had fun? Was that all it was?
Parker : What else was it supposed to be?
Buffy : It seemed like you liked me.
Parker : I do. But I'm starting to feel like you felt what? Some kind of commitment? Are you sure that's what you want right now?
Buffy : I just thought...
Parker : I'm sorry if you missed something. I thought things were pretty clear.

I think it was pretty clear too when he said: "It make me think about, you know, living for now...I mean, everybody says they get it. 'Oh, man. Me too. Live for today.' But what they really want is a reason to goof off. Not study for finals."

What part of that is commitment coming from?

They both got along well and there is no evidence to support that Buffy sought Parker out more than he did her. So that claim is pretty unfounded, if you ask me.

Except that she confronted him within a timeline that is still acceptable for him to have not yet called her. Sure, it's not a dealbreaker necessarily, but it's what she says about wanting more that ends things.

You can not dislike Parker, that's fine. But to not dislike him for assumptions with no ground in what actually happened, or to discredit Buffy's motives because she wasn't upfront about them without discrediting Parker's, isn't fair.

I think it's unfair not to address his dialogue about his intentions. Why else did he say that he was living in the now if he didn't actually mean it? What else would you think it meant? That he was looking for something that would be longer than the now?
 
Wow. Who knew how deep this topic would get. I mean I really just looked at Parker as one of those skeevy college guys that looks at girls as conquests. Spend a little time and get in their pants and then bounce. Parker was a player, and I think he purposefully went after girls that seemed a little unattainable because it got him off.

Parker was and is a loser and Buffy fell for it, and most girls would...
 
B
Big Damn Hero
I agree, except for the "and most girls would" bit. Change that to "most girls in her situation would" and I completely agree. :)
BuffyElevated
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I agree... I've never spent the time to dissect Parker this much simply because I just don't care enough about what happened to think that deeply into it. LOL I always took it as "This guy made Buffy think he was truly, deeply interested in her and then jumped ship when he got what he wanted from her. It sucks for Buffy, but that's life."
 
same i've never really cared that much for Parker, so what, he slept with her then dumped her.
sh** happens. ha.
 
Neoolong - so Parker talked about "living in the now." Well, LOTS of people use that (and similar) quotes. But that doesn't mean he made his intentions about casual sex clear.

"Live for today" was Buffy's motto too, was it not? In S1, she shares this sentiment with Willow. But for Buffy, it means something different. It means that life is short. "Tomorrow you might be dead." So throw yourself into today, enjoy every moment of it, fall in love, laugh a lot, be with your friends, try to live a normal life. "Live for now" does NOT equate "have fun, meaningless relationships." Parker WAS elusive with what he claimed to have wanted. For all Buffy new, "living for now" meant forming a relationship without restraint. Trusting someone when maybe you should be more wary. Forming a strong bond with someone more quickly than you thought you would. It can mean a LOT of things aside from "casual sex."
So, to this question:
Or, do you think that someone that expresses a desire to only live in the moment is honestly thinking about a relationship?
I say yes. And no. I would say that those in love live very much in the moment. And those seeking short-term relationships do, too. And anyone (and everyone) in between.

In fact, this quote here:
"It make me think about, you know, living for now...I mean, everybody says they get it. 'Oh, man. Me too. Live for today.' But what they really want is a reason to goof off. Not study for finals."
supports my argument more than yours. I bolded the section in particular for you. He said that people usually only say that WHEN THEY WANT TO GOOF OFF. As in, not be serious. As in, he implied he was being serious when he said it. So how in the world was he NOT being elusive? And how was Buffy in the wrong for taking his implications as they were?

I believe that Parker KNEW this motto had multiple meanings, and purposely did not clear them up. I believe the writers wrote Parker that way for a reason.

Here are the facts:
- Parker and Buffy got to know one another. Parker spewed off a lot of vague, useless mottos that Buffy took the wrong way. Understandably.
- They had sex. Which, of course, Buffy consented to.
- Parker doesn't contact her for (I think we can assume, though the timeline in my memory's a bit foggy) at least a week. Even though before the sex, they had been seeing each other every day.
- Parker makes a joke about using freshmen women.

What are we left to assume? Honestly? Parker's behavior IMMEDIATELY changed upon hooking up with Buffy. He severed contact with her, when before he made sure to initiate contact. He IMMEDIATELY beings flirting with other women on campus. He makes crude jokes about using Buffy.

Your arguments are vastly unsupported by evidence within the show.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Again, VERY well said. :)
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I don't actually "HATE" Parker. I DISLIKE him a great deal, but I can't say I hate him. I admit, I don't like what he did to Buffy. And after the sex, he basically forgot about her. But, the unfortunate fact is that there are tons of guys like Parker in the world. I guess, on a scale of 1 to 10, i hate him maybe a 4 or 5. But I dislike him around a 10.
 
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