Oz

nerd4hire

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There's this quick little thing that happens in # 4 when they're breaking Willow out of the Twilight compound. You don't really notice it at first read, because there's so much other stuff happening around it.

It's here.

Twilightprisoncell.jpg


From the writer's standpoint why would he even mention the prisoner's in the other cells. Buffy wasn't even thinking about them until she remembered the triple x thing.

So who could be in one of those Twilight cells, who the General doesn't think is important, but Joss might want to call attention to. Here's what I'm thinking - Oz.
 
well, Oz is supposed to turn up eventually, and if the Twilight know he's a werewolf who's techically working for the whitehats, or the bad guys if we're thinking of this from his angle, since he thinks Buffy and Co. are the baddies, it would make sense that they might wanna lock him up.

nicely spotted, N4H
 
So suppose it is Oz. We've got Willow who doesn't appear to be getting along with Kennedy at the moment (they appear to be on some sort of break), who's always looking for the quick fix.

Does Joss have the guts to risk the wrath of the gay, and very vocal, fan-army by fixing Willow up with Oz?
 
i don't know if it would be the wrath of the gays he'd be facing, but more of the wrath of the Tillows. there is still hope that Tara's gonna show up at some point, and it might annoy people if Joss fixes it for Woz (anyone else hate that name?) to make a reappearance.

personally, i'd love to see Oz back, but maybe not in Willow's arms.
 
Willow and Tara would still be possible. Willow and Kennedy, not so much. (Although it could create an interesting triangle).

The problem would be Willow would be Bi, not purely gay. That's what would get the gay segment of Buffy fandom riled.
 
Well I think the fact that willow stated she was gay and not bi would really mess with her character. For her and for the fans. I love Oz and want him in the 'show' but not with Willow. I loved them when they were together. But now, it just won't work. You can't go back on who you are and I know Joss won't do that either, because he 'gets' people/characters. Which is why we fall in love with his characters so easily. So I 100% don't think we will see that happen. It will either be Tara or some other cute (female) for Willow.
 
Does Joss have the guts to risk the wrath of the gay, and very vocal, fan-army by fixing Willow up with Oz?

Ah, no. Well yes, but at this point I would see it as betraying her character's story somewhat. Wouldn't have an issue if she saw herself as Bi, but she's called herself gay so much it wouldn't seem quite right to me anymore.

But it would be cool if Oz is back with the scoobies, although I was under the impression that he would be in Angel. Plus the other prisoners could be anyone, so I wonder who else could be popping in soon.
 
I also dont think id like to see willow with oz, as much as i love Oz and would love for him to be a scoobie again, i think i would prefer to see willow with Tara even kennedy, and shes not exactly my favorite character. I just cant see oz and willow together again. Her character grew so much after he left. And it seemed like she became who she really is. and i guess that'd be a grown mature lesbian witch.
Then again like Kanga said, it might be some one else in the cells, one thing i am hoping, is that its not Riley in the cells for violating some government thing again.
 
Don't think I'm anti Tillow, but I really can't see Tara coming back, and I also think it'd be better if Willow didn't get her back. I mean a main intention of the Willow/Kennedy relationship was to show that Willow could and did, move on...
 
I'm looking forward to Oz turning up, and yeah, it's possible he's in one of the cells, well spotted.

But the fact that Joss said he doesn't know exactly when Oz will come back kinda hints to me that it's not going to be for a little while yet. Who knows, we'll just have to wait and see.

And just to add, I don't really want Oz to get back together with Willow either, for the various reasons already stated.
 
Oh, what Heck. I'll do it. I'll take the other side of the Willow and Oz as a future couple argument, because contrary to the way it appears so far there is another side.

First of all let's address the "what the fans will accept" argument. It suggests there is something so deeply ingrained in the text, so clearly spelled out, so unmistakable, and incontrovertible that any possible, future developments can only be portrayed one way.

I'm not sure that's the case. I suggest what's more possible is this "what the fans will accept thing" is more a case of the louder voice insisting we can only look at Willow as being lesbian and only lesbian with no possibility of bisexuality. I'm thinking maybe there are lot of fans who are less locked into this, than they are content to simply let the louder speak for them.

You'll see this kind of thing happen on boards where the louder voice is decrying the evils of filesharing, or global warming, or some issue where the media will only allow one side to be heard. People are first saying stuff like "everybody knows, or it's clear, or it can only be", then someone steps forward, and says "wait a minute, maybe things aren't so clear". All of a sudden it turns out there were a lot of people having the same quiet thoughts. It's not unusual to discover they were the silent majority.

So Willow and Oz...could it happen? I say, why not?

Let's discuss this point.

You can't go back on who you are and I know Joss won't do that either, because he 'gets' people/characters.

I wish I had that kind of penetrating wisdom to allow me to look into the mind of Joss, and pull out only what he can and cannot, or will or will not do.He surprises me all the time with the things he does. When he made Willow a lesbian in the first place that surprised me.

I saw her as being genuinely attracted to Oz.

I was under the impression the physical side of their relationship was more than satisfactory. When Willow suddenly felt a physical attraction to Xander I couldn't help thinking that attraction was, you know...physical.

Then she was a lesbian. She was hetero, very much hetero, then she wasn't. That's the kind of thing Joss will do. I'm not saying he will make Willow bisexual. I'm saying if he wanted to make Willow bisexual, he not only would, but he could make us believe in it.

But back to the text. Then there was Willow and Tara. From time to time even during the Tara era we would get the impression Willow was sparking on the guys. Tara would get the angry eyes, and Willow would instantly excuse the impulse away. At one point Willow accuses Tara of harboring doubts as to her (Willow's) commitment to her gay sexuality. Tara doesn't back away from the insinuation. One gets the feeling she really does have these doubts. Tara was a pretty good judge of Willow's flaws. She was the first to notice Willow's addiction to the magic. So why can she only be right about the magic, but she must be wrong about Willow's buried attraction to guys?

Then there's this idea that there's such purity in Willow's character it makes it impossible for her flip flop from one commitment into another. To that I simply say, huh? Did you watch the show? Willow's all about the flip flop. When we first meet her she's this pure-hearted virgin, afraid to take chances. Suddenly she's leaving a nightclub with the first sleazy come-on artist who shows her attention. Yes she did it at what she thought was Buffy's encouragement, but the point is she did it. Then she's committed to Oz, but she's breaking that commitment to check out Xander. Oz finally leaves her. She's distraught. Suddenly she's a lesbian. She's committed to her education, but no wait then there's this magic stuff. Let's stay in Sunnydale and do that instead. Tara is the love of her life. Tara dies. This hot young thing turns up and shows her some attention. "Hey, let's try that".

There's nothing about Willow's character which demands she can never go from hetero to gay to bi.

In Dopplegangland Willow expresses concern that her vampire self was a little bit gay. Following that there's a little interplay between Buffy and Angel which suggests vampires can take core bits of their sexual identity with them in the transition from human to vamp. Was I the only one who noticed Vamp Willow was bisexual?

And if Willow is bi, why not Oz? Remember this bit?

OZ: It was stupid to think that you'd just be... waiting.

WILLOW: I was waiting. I feel like some part of me will always be waiting
for you. Like if I'm old and blue-haired, and I turn the corner in Istanbul
and there you are, I won't be surprised. Because... you're with me, you know?

OZ: I know. (Pause) But now is not that time, I guess.
 
A
alexa
would be funny if when he shows up she has blue hair for some reason :p
B
BuffBuff
very interesting what you pointed out. you could make it like 'well, vamp willow was bi. then isn't willow? or at lest she could be.' (though im all for w/t)
Yeah but I think I read somewhere where Joss said Willow is not bi she's just gay. And clearly Willow was one of those late bloomers, some people don't realize they are gay until they meet that person and some people realize it from the age of 5. And clearly vampire Willow realized it early on, however with her being a vampire she was a little kinky just like all vampires (can we say Angel and Spike anyone? Speaking of which I wonder who was the top/bottom in that little pair) And I could see part of the reason Joss had Willow fall for Oz in the first place, cause originally Joss didn't know if he wanted to make Willow or Xander gay, so he gave hints for basically both of them early one and obviously he decided on Willow.
 
Here you go, from Dopplegangland. Tell me what you think Angel is suggesting with his offhand, half finished remark - "Well, actually".

Willow: (appalled) It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? (Angel closes
the door) I'm so evil and... skanky. (aside to Buffy, worried) And I
think I'm kinda gay.

Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality
has nothing to do with the person it was.

Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy)
That's a good point.
 
Here you go, from Dopplegangland. Tell me what you think Angel is suggesting with his offhand, half finished remark - "Well, actually".



i think his suggesting that a vampire is who the person used to be, just evil and with a demon in them, and well dead. I think this could have been a clue to say that willow was going to be the gay one.
 
OK, so the fact that vamp Willow is a little bit gay, that matters, but the fact she's bisexual, that doesn't matter, is that what you're saying?

Explain to me why that is.
 
ok now you got me thinking 🙂....lets see....i think that vamp willow was gay, but being a vampire, it wouldnt matter to her if she didnt love who ever she was with, it could have been just lust to her if it were a man.
also it could have been the other way around, now that i think about it. Vamp will could have been straight, and inlove with xander, she just liked girls in a lustful type way, and not as love or gay.
 
Other vampires in the Buffy verse are what we'll call openly heterosexual, yet Vamp Willow is what I'd call openly bisexual. Providing I'm seeing that correctly, what might explain that? Here's a wild thought. Perhaps she actually was bisexual. 😉

Here's another one. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever thought it, but apparently you're not supposed to mention it, because nobody ever does. Willow had a secret schoolgirl, crushy kind of thing on Giles. According to Where the Wild Things Are she found him sexy. Does that seem more like a core lesbian kind of thing, or granting she later becomes a lesbian, a bisexual kind of thing? Kennedy's early, secret fantasies involved sweeping the southern belle Scarlet O Hara off her feet. Willow secretly thought Giles was hot.
 
ok ok you got me :biggrin: i cant come up with anything to say after that argument , so i guess willow might be bisexual with what you have said. Very good points by the way
 
Other vampires in the Buffy verse are what we'll call openly heterosexual, yet Vamp Willow is what I'd call openly bisexual. Providing I'm seeing that correctly, what might explain that? Here's a wild thought. Perhaps she actually was bisexual. 😉

Here's another one. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever thought it, but apparently you're not supposed to mention it, because nobody ever does. Willow had a secret schoolgirl, crushy kind of thing on Giles. According to Where the Wild Things Are she found him sexy. Does that seem more like a core lesbian kind of thing, or granting she later becomes a lesbian, a bisexual kind of thing? Kennedy's early, secret fantasies involved sweeping the southern belle Scarlet O Hara off her feet. Willow secretly thought Giles was hot.

So, let me get this straight.
Joss Whedon has said that Willow is gay.
But you, of all people, are questioning him?
 
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