I am watching season 7 again and I forgot how annoying kennedy is. I mean telling buffy she is not even the most powerful person in the room. She does not even have half of a clue what is going on she just got there. Also telling spike that the potentials were trained basically saying they had a better chance of fighting that huge demon than spike how cocky can she be? If I remember correctly she was tossed aside like a ragdoll by that demon.
Potential slayers
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iShower4free
Scooby
The potentials in general I found pretty annoying lol. But Kennedy definitely got a boost in ego, possibly from dating one of the Scoobies?
Robb Stark
King in the North
I'm certainly not a member of the "we hate Kennedy" club, but you're right, at times she could be incredibly annoying. Buffy was a disaster pretty much throughout all of S7, but Kennedy, other than possibly being a semi-adequate drill sergeant, didn't have much to really contribute either. I think [MENTION=12155]iShower4free[/MENTION] makes a great point: Kennedy believes she's a member of the core group simply because she's dating one of them.
As a side bar, the Potentials, while I didn't care for pretty much any of them, did have some valid points about Buffy's leadership style and capacity. I mean, the vineyard? Why NOT bring Willow?
As a side bar, the Potentials, while I didn't care for pretty much any of them, did have some valid points about Buffy's leadership style and capacity. I mean, the vineyard? Why NOT bring Willow?
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I always thought Kennedy was very similar to Buffy, maybe a little more vocal about it.
But imagine Buffy going into another group, think she'd take orders from someone without questioning them?
Kennedy was 100% right in what she did, but maybe not right in how she did it. Buffy was being a terrible leader in parts of season 7, and more people should have been calling her out on it earlier.
Kennedy was also correct in saying Buffy isn't the strongest one in the room, Willow is more powerful then Buffy.
Calling out Spike I can totally understand, firstly if your a slayer and he's a vampire, without knowing the story behind him, your not gonna like him. Throw in he had killed people recently, while being controlled by the thing that wants you dead and I can't imagine you'd be all that respectful of him.
But imagine Buffy going into another group, think she'd take orders from someone without questioning them?
Kennedy was 100% right in what she did, but maybe not right in how she did it. Buffy was being a terrible leader in parts of season 7, and more people should have been calling her out on it earlier.
Kennedy was also correct in saying Buffy isn't the strongest one in the room, Willow is more powerful then Buffy.
Calling out Spike I can totally understand, firstly if your a slayer and he's a vampire, without knowing the story behind him, your not gonna like him. Throw in he had killed people recently, while being controlled by the thing that wants you dead and I can't imagine you'd be all that respectful of him.
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itssmiletime
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Robb Stark
Great points
I definitely agree with that I could not stand it.
---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------
Honestly I don't remember the part about no willow. I think that the rest of the group mainly xander and giles and willow should have had more respect than that seeing as buffy saved them countless times. Not to mention buffy was right all along. The potentials especially wanted Faith to lead because they thought she would act like a buddy to them still. Boy were they wrong
---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------
here is my issue with that... buffy is more powerful than willow because willow can't use her power without becoming controlled by it thus making her weaker
---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------
Honestly I don't remember the part about no willow. I think that the rest of the group mainly xander and giles and willow should have had more respect than that seeing as buffy saved them countless times. Not to mention buffy was right all along. The potentials especially wanted Faith to lead because they thought she would act like a buddy to them still. Boy were they wrong
---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------
here is my issue with that... buffy is more powerful than willow because willow can't use her power without becoming controlled by it thus making her weaker
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iShower4free
Yeah Willow couldnt trust her own powers let alone everyone else so i think Buffy is still the most powerful.
white avenger
white avenger
Comparing Buffy's power with Willow's is misleading, because, whereas Willow might have the power to create an etire army of Slayers, one single ubervamp could shred her into wicca coleslaw before she could get the spell set up and cast. Buffy's power is an immediate thing, fists and feet always ready. Her relative potential destructive power might not be a match for what Willow could ultimately generate, but she doesn't have to take the time to call on Osiris or some other ancient power in order to simply throw a punch.
But all of that is really irrelevant, since, as has been pointed out, Willow was afraid to pull out her "big guns" spells for fear of going dark again. Buffy never had that restriction.
But all of that is really irrelevant, since, as has been pointed out, Willow was afraid to pull out her "big guns" spells for fear of going dark again. Buffy never had that restriction.
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iShower4free
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Robb Stark
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how do you get your name to show up saying that you agree under a post?
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Why should they show her respect when she wasn't show them any?
Buffy is the Slayer, but is part of a group that has saved the world, Buffy hasn't been doing it alone. She only got this far becasue of a group.
She would have died in season one, had it not been for Xander, she literly owes him her life.
She owes Willow for her second life.
She owes Spike for helping to turn the battle in her favor in season 2.
She owes her entire graduating class to help her defeat the mayor.
she owes her friends for lending their strength to channel the slayer line, risking their lives to super charge her.
She's never done anything alone, and then suddenly in season 7, she acts like she's done it all alone.
That isn't really the case, Willow is more powerful then Buffy. Willow can use her power, it doesn't control her, but she's afraid of losing control. There's a difference. If Willow would have gotten over that, which Buffy is trying to help her to do, she is more powerful.
Willow had no problem keeping the uber-vamp locked behind a force field, and since Anya and Andrew were tasked with taking on uber-Vamps, once Willow trusts herself there is no problem.
OK willow can use her power in small inrements without getting possessed by it but that does not come close to being more powerful than buffy in my opinion. The only time willow ever consistently used large amounts of power she got taken over by it. Also the one time I forget the exact spell she was doing but she started to avert back to dark willow sucking power from kennedy with her hair going black again until she was pulled out of the circle. Another example is when she gave all potential slayers the power of a real slayer she was being taken over again by light magic with her hair going gold.
---------- Post added at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
Secondly I do agree that they have been an enormous help to Buffy that is undeniable however countless times she has saved the world at the expense of her own body and mind. She has done right by them over and over again and I do not feel she showed them any disrespect war is won by people leading others and giving them orders not by everyone being friends. The potentials only wanted Faith to lead because they believed she would be all buddy buddy with them and Faith put a stop to that notion quickly then did the same thing she just condemned Buffy for and led them straight into a trap. At least Buffy was correct about what trap to lead them into Faith led them to a bomb and some uber vamps while Buffy would have led them straight to the scythe. The issue is the potentials especially were afraid and they all including the scoobies failed to realize that in war there will be deaths and Buffy was not asking them to do anything that she was not prepared to do herself. War is War and people die these potentials basically wanted a leader that would do everything and get them out of a war to save the world unscathed which is an impossibility.
---------- Post added at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
Secondly I do agree that they have been an enormous help to Buffy that is undeniable however countless times she has saved the world at the expense of her own body and mind. She has done right by them over and over again and I do not feel she showed them any disrespect war is won by people leading others and giving them orders not by everyone being friends. The potentials only wanted Faith to lead because they believed she would be all buddy buddy with them and Faith put a stop to that notion quickly then did the same thing she just condemned Buffy for and led them straight into a trap. At least Buffy was correct about what trap to lead them into Faith led them to a bomb and some uber vamps while Buffy would have led them straight to the scythe. The issue is the potentials especially were afraid and they all including the scoobies failed to realize that in war there will be deaths and Buffy was not asking them to do anything that she was not prepared to do herself. War is War and people die these potentials basically wanted a leader that would do everything and get them out of a war to save the world unscathed which is an impossibility.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Willow doesn't get taken over by her power in season 7. Ever.
She got corrupted by power in season 6 when she gathered all the magic from the books in The Magic Box and Rack, the next time she loses it like that is in Season 9 in Quor'toth, and that was because of something else. But in season 6 everything was still her choice, it gets very fuzzy where she really starts to lose it during her magic spree, but the start of it was very much her, thats why she saved Buffy before going after Warren, it's still her.
Willows eyes going black aren't an indication of power controlling her, it's an indication of Willow using a huge amount of power. It happens to her a few times in season 8 even after her hair has gone all white in Chosen.
The only time Willow loses control in season 7, is when she tries to do the locator spell on the First, but thats not her magic, The First had a hand in that.
Willow is afraid of her power in season 7, she thinks going black eyed means she's loosing it, but she's wrong, in season 8 she moves past that, not sure if you've read the comics, but there is basically nothing she can't do in season 8 she has incredible powers becasue she's moved past her fear. Her magic wasn't controlling her, her fear was.
---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------
Buffy was right about the Scythe, but wrong in how she went about it. I completely refuse to believe there is anyone in the real world that would have gone threw the vineyard scenario, then the leader says "Right we're going back in" - that anyone would be like "yay, thats the right decision"
She definitely wasn't showing the scoobies respect, she was treating them like the potentials, like they were below her level, when before that it wasn't that way.
Had Buffy taken the gang back into the vineyard, they would have probably been in the same position Faiths plan put them into, some dead, more injured. She proves herself she was doing it wrong, by how she can go in there and do it herself.
The scoobies didn't fail to realize there would be death, Buffy failed to realize she wasn't leading an actual army. She was leading a group of group of teenage girls and her friends.
---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------
what I will never understand is, if Buffy realized she was wrong, comes back says that in her Chosen speech, learns and grows from the experience and becomes a better leader, how do people justify the character she moves on from and grows from as right?
first of all I meant willow's hair going black and that is what she meant as well in the show. And I know we were in a season 7 thread but the conversation led me intop talking about willow as a whole and I think she was out of her own control before she took rack's power she just was single mindedly focused on the trio then when she took giles' power she felt the world's pain and wanted to end it. And in season 7 you were talking about when the first went inside her briefly I however was talking about a different spell sitting by the front door where she sucked energy from kennedy and then had to explain to kennedy that is what happens to her (willow) when she uses heavy magicks. She may be able to control it in small bits but from my point of view she has very little control over her power and the control she does have she is afraid to use it therefore making buffy stronger again in my opinion. There really is no concrete answer here this question is a matter of interpretation
Robb Stark
King in the North
Exactly. And for all of Buffy's talk of "this is a WAR" in S7, in a real war, if she'd acted as she did at the vineyard, she would be instantly relieved of command. Like, immediately.
I get that there weren't a lot of options, and that Faith was hardly a better choice, but people do seem to forget that when throwing the "war" rationale out there.
OK so what exactly would be the basis for her being relieved of command? She went to the enemy and engaged which is part of war. She then saw that they were being decimated and called a retreat another part of war. I don't understand what the problem was with that. I mean really it seems that because the guy turned out to be strong and things went wrong that all of a sudden that is buffy's fault. I think it is crazy buffy did what buffy does and that is find the big bad and attack it just turns out he was more powerful than anyone of them had any way of knowing. So the better thing to do instead of going back would be what? Sitting there like scared bunnies and wait for Caleb to come to them and catch them off guard? Or maybe pick them off one by one? How about what Faith did and go and get everyone blown up and attacked by uber vamps? I am not saying Faith was wrong to lead them there either she got info and went with it same as Buffy did going to the vineyard. And Buffy's idea to go back not only did it make perfect sense because the bad guys go where the power is and they were at the vineyard but it also turned out to be right and she got the scythe. Basically they were going to have to face Caleb again regardless so why not make it on there own terms with a goal in mind instead of waiting for him to come slaughter them. Please don't feel like I am attacking you I know sometimes I can come on a little strong I just don't understand what the problem is with what Buffy did. She is the slayer and that is what the slayer does and these girls wanted it to be safe for them and that could not happen. As soon as Buffy proved to be right and get the scythe and things were looking up everyone welcomes her back it is pathetic in my opinion. I have had people tell me that they were just normal people and Buffy should not treat them like warriors but I believe in that situation there is no choice but to push the ordinary to be extraordinary in order to save the world. There was no time for politics or to coddle these people and take opinions. And for them to kick her out is insane when she is the reason they are all alive at that point. She knew that some people would die in the effort and she knew very well she could die herself she had to except that and these girls did not want to except it. It felt like they wanted something concrete like a guarantee that they would win before they went on an offensive which is asking for something that nobody can know.
Robb Stark
King in the North
I mean this in the friendliest of ways possible (seriously 😛), but I am going to absolutely shred this. I'm sorry, but I can't help myself here.
It is absolutely Buffy's fault. Yes, general engagement is part of war, but it is in no way a predetermined requisite of it. No successful military will attack an enemy, especially one you have zero intelligence on, just because. That's dumb, on a mind-numbing scale. You don't engage just to engage. There has to be a purpose behind it. There has to be a reason for doing so, an objective. Otherwise you're just a fool, and you will get destroyed, which is exactly what happened to Buffy. She made no attempt to convene any sort of reconnaissance on Caleb or the vineyard. She fell into the most basic trap ever ("he said he has something of yours." "I want it back! Let's go!". Seriously?), without even considering other options.
Things go wrong all the time in war, even with the best laid plans. That's true. But that doesn't mean you don't do your best to account for everything possible. Buffy didn't even try. She didn't know what Caleb looked like, who he worked for, what he wanted, what he was capable of, what exactly of "hers" he had, why he was in Sunnydale, how he got there, if he had backup, what the layout of the vineyard was, what to do if things went wrong, or even if she was bringing the right people to the vineyard (seriously, why wasn't Willow there? You leave your most powerful weapon to guard your rear?). She only lived because of plot magic; because Caleb and The First were too dumb to pursue her. Had they done, Buffy and her team would have been decimated.
Leadership is not "find the big bad and attack it", especially when Buffy has other considerations that she didn't in the past. This isn't S1. Now, she has to protect the Potentials, a group of wildly unpredictable, untrained and unreliable people who don't like or trust her all that much to begin with.
Think back on the series. How does Buffy defeat previous opponents who have her outgunned and outmanned? She uses her head. The Judge vastly outpowered her, so she blew him up. The Mayor was invincible prior to his Ascension, so she waited, timed her approach to perfection, and then blew him up. She doesn't even think with Caleb. Faith is hardly better. She's a terrible leader and the definition of unreliable, but at least she attempted to think tactically.
Well for starters, the Scythe was largely irrelevant to the defeat of the Turok-Han. At best it acted as a safety valve in case The First advanced past Sunnydale, where there would be Slayer resistance. Spike, Angel, W&H and the amulet saved the world. Buffy had nothing to do with it. We are never shown how the amulet was activated, so we can't really know otherwise.
You're right, a showdown with Caleb was inevitable. But that doesn't mean you just say "charge". The scythe was there, yes, but Buffy's "plan" was to replicate the exact same operation that got her team maimed and killed in the first place. And hell, we see a few episodes later that she WAS wrong. She didn't need to just hammer her way in to the vineyard. She has no capability of even doing so. What was she intending to go differently? Her, Faith and Spike all got whipped by Caleb. What was she expecting the second time around? She gets the scythe herself when she finally goes back!
And no one is suggesting she just allow Caleb to come kill them. Caleb and The First, for big bads, are pretty stupid. Buffy didn't even take that into account, or try anything other than just throwing more people up against him. Just saying she is the Slayer and this is what she does doesn't hold water.
Don't worry, you're not attacking me at all 🙂. I hope I don't come across that way either. It wouldn't be much of a discussion board if we all agreed all the time 🙂. I hope I've articulated my points well.
It is absolutely Buffy's fault. Yes, general engagement is part of war, but it is in no way a predetermined requisite of it. No successful military will attack an enemy, especially one you have zero intelligence on, just because. That's dumb, on a mind-numbing scale. You don't engage just to engage. There has to be a purpose behind it. There has to be a reason for doing so, an objective. Otherwise you're just a fool, and you will get destroyed, which is exactly what happened to Buffy. She made no attempt to convene any sort of reconnaissance on Caleb or the vineyard. She fell into the most basic trap ever ("he said he has something of yours." "I want it back! Let's go!". Seriously?), without even considering other options.
Things go wrong all the time in war, even with the best laid plans. That's true. But that doesn't mean you don't do your best to account for everything possible. Buffy didn't even try. She didn't know what Caleb looked like, who he worked for, what he wanted, what he was capable of, what exactly of "hers" he had, why he was in Sunnydale, how he got there, if he had backup, what the layout of the vineyard was, what to do if things went wrong, or even if she was bringing the right people to the vineyard (seriously, why wasn't Willow there? You leave your most powerful weapon to guard your rear?). She only lived because of plot magic; because Caleb and The First were too dumb to pursue her. Had they done, Buffy and her team would have been decimated.
Leadership is not "find the big bad and attack it", especially when Buffy has other considerations that she didn't in the past. This isn't S1. Now, she has to protect the Potentials, a group of wildly unpredictable, untrained and unreliable people who don't like or trust her all that much to begin with.
Think back on the series. How does Buffy defeat previous opponents who have her outgunned and outmanned? She uses her head. The Judge vastly outpowered her, so she blew him up. The Mayor was invincible prior to his Ascension, so she waited, timed her approach to perfection, and then blew him up. She doesn't even think with Caleb. Faith is hardly better. She's a terrible leader and the definition of unreliable, but at least she attempted to think tactically.
Well for starters, the Scythe was largely irrelevant to the defeat of the Turok-Han. At best it acted as a safety valve in case The First advanced past Sunnydale, where there would be Slayer resistance. Spike, Angel, W&H and the amulet saved the world. Buffy had nothing to do with it. We are never shown how the amulet was activated, so we can't really know otherwise.
You're right, a showdown with Caleb was inevitable. But that doesn't mean you just say "charge". The scythe was there, yes, but Buffy's "plan" was to replicate the exact same operation that got her team maimed and killed in the first place. And hell, we see a few episodes later that she WAS wrong. She didn't need to just hammer her way in to the vineyard. She has no capability of even doing so. What was she intending to go differently? Her, Faith and Spike all got whipped by Caleb. What was she expecting the second time around? She gets the scythe herself when she finally goes back!
And no one is suggesting she just allow Caleb to come kill them. Caleb and The First, for big bads, are pretty stupid. Buffy didn't even take that into account, or try anything other than just throwing more people up against him. Just saying she is the Slayer and this is what she does doesn't hold water.
Don't worry, you're not attacking me at all 🙂. I hope I don't come across that way either. It wouldn't be much of a discussion board if we all agreed all the time 🙂. I hope I've articulated my points well.
Ethan Reigns
With the number of times she fell into traps before, you think she would have learned.
See I get what you are saying about armys going and the whole intel thing but this is different. To me the first scenario was always she encounters the enemy and if she can't beat him originally then they get info on him. OK and also the whole thing about protecting the potentials was from the first and the bringers which could be done. things change however when caleb and the uber vamps are introduced now it goes from protecting them to they need to step up and help. No ok I'll let up on the Buffy was 100% right in her decision making and admit that I may be a little bit biased about it considering Buffy is far and away my favourite character of all time. But I also feel that they were way out of line especially dawn who in no way helps in my opinion the only thing she does is get in the way and cause problems. And I feel they were out of line by telling Buffy she had to leave after everything she has done for all of them. Dawn has real nerve considering if it was not for Buffy Giles would have killed her himself to destroy the key. Instead of kicking out the most important person to the cause they should have just refused to go and if Buffy left of her own accord then that is on her but they should have refused to go without a plan. Buffy herself started to relent saying that they could sit down and strategize but that they had to go in there regardless which is true. They mainly Dawn didn't listen saying Buffy couldn't be a party of it. And Spike made a really good point about Giles which I think was valid saying that Giles couldn't handle the fact that Buffy had grown to the point where she wasn't dependent on him.
---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------
And her purpose behind the engaging wasn't just to do it if you recall she said they were hiding something which she knew because if there wasn't something important there than Caleb would be at the seal. I think that Buffy had more faith in herself than the others had in her. I believe she felt that they could win but at a cost and like any good leader she knew that any loss including her own life would be worth it.
---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------
And another point I have that makes me question the groups intentions is that as soon as Buffy made a choice that got them hurt they turned on her and looked to Faith a person that would have killed them all herself not long before. Then Faith makes a similar mistake and they all turn back to the person that saved them Again inevitably that person is Buffy. It seems to me that they wanted someone who was not going to make any mistakes or get anyone hurt which is just not possible. Buffy could definitely have gone about things better but these people were very quick to turn on the person responsible for them being alive. Buffy has done right by the scoobies for years and the potentials would also be dead had it not been for Buffy so to turn on her at the first sign that she is making mistakes with the mission is incredibly traitorous.
Robb Stark
King in the North
I don't think Buffy was right, but at the same time I think how the Scoobies and company reacted and handled the situation was very, very wrong as well. So there we agree 🙂.
Losses are part of war, agreed, but at the same time acceptable losses are also are always part of the equation. Like I said, a few episodes later Buffy retrieves the Scythe on her own. The losses she would have incurred by returning to the vineyard then clearly weren't worth it. She had options.
this is true probably what should have happened would have been for when buffy began to relent a little saying they could strategize but the plan was to go in, instead of them kicking her out and her being all upset they should have talked and they probably would have came up with that plan regardless.
---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ----------
I just remember watching it for the first time and being so pissed at these people. I was thinking to myself please Buffy just bang Dawn and Kennedy's heads together ha. It may not help the matter that both of those characters have grinded on my nerves since they showed up respectively!!
---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 AM ----------
I just remember watching it for the first time and being so pissed at these people. I was thinking to myself please Buffy just bang Dawn and Kennedy's heads together ha. It may not help the matter that both of those characters have grinded on my nerves since they showed up respectively!!