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Pure evil?

Marisa

Liver Alone
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,043
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roswell
Lilah to me is one of the characters that blurs the line. She is evil at times and I like it but with Wes she showed a different side and I liked that. To me she is likable at all times and I enjoy seeing all the layers of Lilah. Do i think she had the ability to be full blown evil it depends she does some things that say yes and some that say no.
 

Taake

Prophet of the Lord
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
15,897
Age
34
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
I think Lilah is far from pure evil, she has questionable morals no doubt, but mainly I think she feels that she has made her bed and she'll lie in it.
The comforts of her life comes with a price and she has accepted that.
And I think she points out herself that she didn't start out 'evil' when she tells Angel that she "became her game face years ago".
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
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39
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London, UK
I'd say she is pretty close to being pure evil. That is something you have to respect about her character is that she stays pretty consistent to her world view pretty much all the way through, unlike that pussy Lindsey!:p

We do see a hint of a heart from her later on, but it is just a suggestion.
 

vellavu

Scooby
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
3,114
Black Thorn
Let's skip Lilah. Seriously, how evil is Lilah's employer, the W&H itself?

Their apocalypse is about slowly making money with the help of humans, most of the time by non-violent ways. They also wanted to stop Jasmine.

It's kinda lukewarm to me.

Setting two vamps on the loose in the city you say? Well I know a lot of buddhists who set cobras and rabid dogs and other invasion species free in crowded places for "religious belief" reasons. I approve W&H more.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Hail Hydra 💀
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
6,882
Black Thorn
If Stephanie Romanov wasn't such a talented actress, Lilah might not have had the depth of character she displayed. So many times I've seen her eyes reflect pain/vulnerability/saddness and it always touched me. I'm absolutely sure Lilah isn't completely evil. In fact, I believe she's one of the most human characters on Angel.
 

bespangeled

Scooby
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
3,389
Location
Tucson
Black Thorn
I never thought that Lilah was as much evil as just a lady who made a commitment, possibly in either haste or ignorance of the entire situation, or both, and, once committed, had no real choice in the matter.
Oh, but I think choice is what she did have - and that's what made her special. She saw that working for WRH gave her what she needed and wanted, and she grabbed that. Lilah didn't care that they spun her moral needle, she didn't go there to do good - in fact, I don't think Lilah actually even believed that there was pure good.

She was fiercely amoral and completely out for herself - completely grey , with no desire to be a white hat. That's what made her refreshing to me. The other characters all had moments of wavering, touching evil but with an unrelenting desire to be good that pulled them back from the brink. Lilah was cynical, and unashamed, and she liked being in charge. That's why her interaction with the fang gang were so great - snark with substance.

I think the scene that showed her relationship with Wesley best was when she played him:

LILAH
Ooh. A drop-by. That's a surprise.

WESLEY
Is it?

LILAH
Well, that it took you so long, yeah.

WESLEY
(walks inside) You played me.

LILAH
You played yourself.

WESLEY
On the phone, you wanted me to hear that so I would tell Angel.

LILAH
Free will. Look it up.

WESLEY
Lilah...

LILAH
I was just doing my job. You're the one who decided to take what you overheard and give it to the good-n-plentys. So before you go all righteous fury, figure out who you're really mad at here.

WESLEY
(sighs) What was the real plan?

LILAH
Let's just say, I could've had Lorne's brain in a jar, but I left it in his head 'cause he's a friend of yours.

WESLEY
What's that supposed to do? Lull me into trusting you again?

LILAH
If I'd thought you'd ever trust me, I would've never played you like that.

WESLEY
It's never simple, is it?

Add that to the scene playing in Wesley's mind as he cuts her into pieces - oh, shivers!


LILAH
I know what it is. The reason you're having such a hard time with this. Why you're taking so long to—you know... (makes a creaking noise as she gestures across her throat with her hand) The awful truth: you couldn't save me. And this is the exclamation point.

WESLEY
Saved you from the Beast, for all the good it did.

LILAH
(smiles) Wesley, you know that's not what I'm talking about. You couldn't save me from me.

WESLEY
Is that what you thought?

LILAH
Me? (laughs) Lover, I'm not even here. I'm just a figment in your devilishly handsome head. So, clearly, it's what you thought. For all your supposed darkness, edge of the razor mystique, (whispers in his ear) there was always a small part of you that thought you could pull me back from the brink of my evil, evil ways. Help me find redemption.

WESLEY
Redemption?

LILAH
(stands behind him with her hands on his shoulders) Angel's influence, I suppose. The whole not giving up on someone, no matter how far he—or she—has fallen. Oh, well. Too late for me. (Wes stands) Let's just get it over with. That body's not gonna dismember itself, you know.

WESLEY
(lifts the battle-axe) I'm sorry, Lilah.

LILAH
Oh, Wes, we don't have that word in our vocabulary. Not people like you and—

Wesley swings the axe. When he pulls it back, it's got blood on its edge. He cries.

Lilah knew Wesley better than he knew himself - and she loved him but neither of them really could change for the other. There really wasn't a 'people like you and I' because Wesley really was a white hat. I like that kind of doomed - the kind that comes from internal tension instead of the romantic UST.
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
13,061
Age
39
Location
London, UK
If Stephanie Romanov wasn't such a talented actress, Lilah might not have had the depth of character she displayed. So many times I've seen her eyes reflect pain/vulnerability/saddness and it always touched me. I'm absolutely sure Lilah isn't completely evil. In fact, I believe she's one of the most human characters on Angel.


Sometimes though the more human the character the more evil in the Whedonverse. Lilah had a slow start as a character, often playing fodder for other characters at W&H, or just getting lost in the suffle during those early seasons. I think an episode like Untouched was a missed opportunity for her, because her relationship with the girl, but then conflict with what W&H or her evil side wanted to do might have been a good conflict with her truly looking out and trying to be a mother figure for the girl Could have been a good thing to explore. Like maybe making it a Lilah-centric episode would have worked better. But I think from S3 to 5 she becomes a much more interesting character.

As for W&H as a whole? The concept was good, and I like some of the morality issues which they raise about the line between good and evil. And I do like in S2 when they go more into the day to day running of the firm. The concept of them as representing evil works better in those real life context, shades of light and dark, or when compared to Angel's ideas of right and wrong. I'm not so keen on them summoning demons for random storylines, or some of their stop-gap schemes. But when you get a more long term arc with things invested in it, such as the Darla arc then it works much better.
 

Sternbeeere

Glory´s sane(?) groupie
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
382
I do not think she is pure evil. There are others who are more sutiable to that titles like Warren, he is the one who wants to be evil for the sake of it and never shows remorse or a human site except for selfish insecurities. Or Angelus, who enjoys torture for its own sake. Lilah is nowhere near that, I am not saying she is good, but as many have pointed she is a grey character. To put it more precise the more dark-grey character, but still not pure evil.
But we clearly see her good sites like the reason why she works at Wolfram and Hart in the first place (her ill mother) and her care for Wesley. Also her attitudes show that she is not in for the evil, but sees the world as grey shades only. She tells Wesley something like "take black and white and you get grey, and no matter how much white you put in back it still will be grey"
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
13,061
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39
Location
London, UK
I don't know describing Warren as pure evil is a bit like describing Parker as pure evil. But it does bring up an interesting question of whether a human character doing such horrible things makes them more evil than a demon, vampire etc..
 

Sternbeeere

Glory´s sane(?) groupie
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
382
I don't know describing Warren as pure evil is a bit like describing Parker as pure evil. But it does bring up an interesting question of whether a human character doing such horrible things makes them more evil than a demon, vampire etc..
Funny but Parker was an other character I was thinking of probably being pure evil at heart, yet he did not do what Warren did, (rape, murder, blaming murder on someone else etc.) And we did not see much of him, soI could not say he is pure evil.
I do not think evil is species related, although demons and vampires are more inclined to do violent or evil things, due to their species and might have a slight excuse for their deeds therefore. But generally evil is about attitudes on the one hand and deeds on the other hand for me. Although the Buffy series sometimes makes one believe that humans are generally better than demons or vampires. Then the Angel series does not do so.
 

Buffy Summers

Yataro
Staff member
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
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31,618
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The City of Angels
Sineya
Oh I agree with you that Warren is pure evil. We never saw him do anything that didn't hurt someone else. Lilah and Parker? Not so much. Lilah had reasons she did what she did that weren't evil for the sake of evil, and Parker is a dick, but that doesn't make him evil, just self-centered.
 
Sternbeeere
Sternbeeere
That is why i did not mention Parker right away, although in non-canon books he works with evil vampires and disregards life, but it is non-canon
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