Blair Waldorf-Bass
je suis prest
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2008
- Messages
- 876
- Age
- 37
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
I absolutely agree. I've never been a Bangel person. It always seemed so contrived and forced to me. They tired to hard, in my opinion. It was sweet, they did love eachother, don't get me wrong - it was just not realistic. It could never work in the long run.
Maybe that was how it was always sopposed to be.
Angel and Cordy had a much mature love (it mirrored the maturing Whedonverse audience I think). Which made it all the more sad when it fell apart...
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Sorry 😉
I tend to repeat myself.
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Interesting point...I'm going to have to meditate on this for a while...
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
Ok, I'm going to step in it, big time. And, if it helps, I've been sexually abused, so I am not talking out of my butt here. What Spike did the "rape" attempt was horrible. I won't make excuses, but it was not really a rape scenario.
He didd, for many many reasons, believe that Buffy had feelings for him beyond what she would admit. He really believed he had experienced more than sex with her, and she with him. He was a desperate angry man. Does that make it right? No. But he was not acting out of hate or wanting to overpower her, but some horrible twisted belief that if he could just show her one more time, this time the pieces would fall into place.
Buffy should have been disgusted with herself, not for boinking Spike, but for the way she treated him. Whenever she wanted him, to talk to, to do a job for her, for sex, for information, she expected him to be at her beck and call, but if he showed up she usually pulled the "leave me alone" bit. She called all the rights for herself. He wasn't allowed to ask of her in return.
He had repeatedly told her to leave him alone, because of how he felt and the pain of her not feeling the same way. She never respected that, she always came back, according to her own desire and played on his feelings for her. Over and over again.
She beat him up, horribly, said horrible things to him, insulted him, told him he was beneath her, etc. Used things he'd shared with her against him emotionally, repeatedly. She messed with his mind. After she told him to move on...and he did, she told him she was hurt by his behavior...so is it really that wrong for him to think that this woman, in spite of her inability to admit it, DID have major feelings for him?
He broke down and did something awful, no doubt. Just like Buffy had done with him, repeatedly. I mean, she's sleeping with him, but when he calls her "love" in front of Riley, she punches him in the face...oh, but that's OK, because why? How is the way she treats him NOT abuse? She has super strength, and beats him up, and we are supposed to forgive it because what? Because she's a "girl"?
In "gone", she comes on to him sexually when he can't see her, after he gives her a " I don't want you if I can't have all of you" speech...she goes at it again. And it's supposed to be a laugh line, but when Spike, driven nearly mad by her games and his desperation acts stupidly, suddenly it's rape and unforgivable.
Fighting was how they usually got "hot" for sex, so the fact that she was struggling wasn't enough for him to know that THIS time, she meant it. She was always struggling with herself internally over it. She liked to fight before they had sex.
We'll never know if, in a second, he would have heard the genuine plea in her voice and stopped himself. Because that was not how he wanted her, hurt and reluctant. I think he would have stopped, even if she hadn't found the strength to throw him off.
And it's not just because I happen to like his character, it's because he didn't go there with the intent to hurt her, and he didn't really want "power" over her. And because relationships are so complex etc.
What happened on the bathroom floor was not an isolated event. It was the culmination of all that had taken place before, by both of them.
Yes, he was wrong, but I know why Buffy still thought it would be OK to let Dawn stay with him, because she too knew that Spike hadn't wanted to hurt her. She knew what it was about, and that it wasn't black and white.
She knew that even good people, with a soul can be driven to acts of insanity and evil.
Everyone thinks black Willow, angry enough to end the world, is justified, and still loves her.
But Spike is anathema because of what his desperation led him to almost do.
why do you think that is?
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InsaneMystic
wow... your posts are impressive! great to have you on the boards!
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Blair Waldorf-Bass
Fantastic posts! :)
BuffyElevated
WOW.... Impressive!
ItMustBeBunnies
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BuffyElevated
Scooby
I was watching this ep in my bedroom at the time and I remember nearly falling off the edge of the bed. I was literally staring at the TV with my eyes all bugging out and my jaw hanging open. LOL
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
Thanks for the welcome. I am really enjoying the boards, wish I had more time to indulge myself in them.
Hope to get to know you better.
PurplePoof
Surgeon Of Mean
I agree with a lot of what you said, cryptwarmer, I just like to take shots at Spike whenever possible.
Buffy did abuse him and treat him horribly, I'm with you on that point. But I suppose in the same way she may be guilty of sending "mixed signals", he didn't exactly lead Buffy to believe he DISLIKED being treated in that fashion. In fact, he seemed to enjoy it. After all, he did keep coming back for more...
Buffy did abuse him and treat him horribly, I'm with you on that point. But I suppose in the same way she may be guilty of sending "mixed signals", he didn't exactly lead Buffy to believe he DISLIKED being treated in that fashion. In fact, he seemed to enjoy it. After all, he did keep coming back for more...
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
Agreed! But then, so did Buffy, keep coming back for more.
She trained Spike to treat her exactly as he did in the bathroom. He came over to talk, to apologize. But, during their entire relationship, every time he tried to talk to her about their relationship she ran off, beat him up, insulted him or started a fight that led to raunchy sex. She kept telling him, she had no feelings for him, that they were over, etc, but then it was clear once they started the nasty that she was full of passion, if not genuine affection. But she never talked.
So, he comes over this time, to TALK. He tried to apologize, she picks a fight, assuming that he was planning magic against her, shutting out what he was trying to say, ignoring his feelings...again. Now, he's not an idiot, he knows she has feelings, he's experienced it. He knows she has a hard time admitting her feelings, and that time after time she's come to him, because he's the only one she can feel with. So, he turns to what she's trained him to do, get violent, because apparently, that is the only way she knows how to let herself go.
She has trained him that is what she needs. Now, this time, that is not where she wants it to go. Fair enough, but also fair enough that at first, hurt, angry, frustrated with being shut down, and having her assume the worst motives on his part, he does what has always worked with her in the past, gets physical.
That is why I do believe, that even if she had not thrown him off, in a couple of seconds, it would have hit him that this time she was being straight with him, and he would have stopped. But she tossed him off first, and gets to play superior with the "he tried to rape me" bit.
He wasn't trying to rape her, he was trying to make contact, and since she refused to do it his way, he thought he was doing it her way, the way she had always wanted it in the past.
But I also think she knew this, and that way why she didn't make a big deal of it with Xander or Willow, etc.
As usual she used it as an excuse to insult Spike (you would have if I hadn't stopped you), but it appears that even she recognizes that she hasn't been fair with him.
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Blair Waldorf-Bass
Good explanation hun!
PurplePoof
Surgeon Of Mean
I think what we can summarize, in brief, is they were both very screwed up people at that point in the show. What I find kind of interesting is how the Spuffy 'shippers are so pleased with your posts, when your posts seem to lay out all the reasons the two definitely did NOT have a loving relationship. :lol:
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Blair Waldorf-Bass
Hmm, I have to disagree with you on that, debating buddy.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Very nicely said 🙂 Thanks for your input! Glad ot know someone feels the way I do.
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Oh, another thing; lets not forget that Spike was indeed soulless at this time. We cant' expect too much from him 🙂
Since Spike does exhibit human tendencies and emotions, we tend to forget this true nature. He is a vampire. He is evil. No one shoudl have let thier guard down with him at all at that point (chipless or not)
He was confused about the bounderies of thier relationship - and with good reason. "I hate you, I love you, hurt me, don't hurt me, love me don't love me"...
I'd be confused too, consitering the crap Buff was giving him 🙂
I'm NOT justifying this at all. I'm just saying he was so disturbed by the whole thing, it made him leave and go get a soul. He felt terrible. So, something good did come out of this.
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Well I don't know about you all, but I never said Buff and Spike had a loving relationship in season 6. Far from it!
Was it passionate, disturbing, revealing, and destructive? Yes. Loving? No.
I don't think it was until season 7 where they truly created a real friendship based on trust and love.
Airam
yep, yep and yep :)
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
They certainly didn't have a traditional relationship. I mean it was never going to be the love of her life, she could never settle down with Spike and pop out kiddos, etc. But so what? I mean, in our lives we need all sorts of relationships.
Some are long haul, but some are short and intense and just as critical to our growing, learning, to catapulting us toward our futures. And just because they don't have lasting power, doesn't mean we shouldn't fully engage in them.
I can think of times when I was in intense situations with people...sometimes just a weekend or a span of a few weeks while we worked on a project, when we became very close, sometimes frighteningly close just for that time. It feels nearly unreal, and there is no explaining how one can come to love, need, trust basically strangers, so fast. But given certain types of situations, it happens, and then, when it's over, people return to their normally scheduled lives, but richer for having had that intense time together.
I think Buffy and Spike are like that. They need each other deeply...for now. I don't think either has delusions of spending life together, they aren't even thinking that far ahead, they can't. But for now, they can be there for one another on a level that others can't. And that can be important and meaningful, and when it's accomplished what it needs to...they can move on.
Life is like that.
But since it doesn't seem right or reasonable, sometimes we fight those relationships, or sometimes we let ourselves go in them, and gain a lot of insight into life and ourselves.
I don't think that Buffy was banging Spike for the sex. She's a pretty girl, she could have found any number of safe, clean, living guys, with souls to have safe, clean, protected sex with. Sex was how they played it out, but her connection with Spike was on many levels. It was a handy way to communicate, to bring her demons to the surface so she could slay them. He gave her permission to be what she was, even the parts of herself she feared and despised, he was OK with.
We all need that at sometime in our lives. to be given permission to be whatever it is we are, even if it's not pretty.
Some are long haul, but some are short and intense and just as critical to our growing, learning, to catapulting us toward our futures. And just because they don't have lasting power, doesn't mean we shouldn't fully engage in them.
I can think of times when I was in intense situations with people...sometimes just a weekend or a span of a few weeks while we worked on a project, when we became very close, sometimes frighteningly close just for that time. It feels nearly unreal, and there is no explaining how one can come to love, need, trust basically strangers, so fast. But given certain types of situations, it happens, and then, when it's over, people return to their normally scheduled lives, but richer for having had that intense time together.
I think Buffy and Spike are like that. They need each other deeply...for now. I don't think either has delusions of spending life together, they aren't even thinking that far ahead, they can't. But for now, they can be there for one another on a level that others can't. And that can be important and meaningful, and when it's accomplished what it needs to...they can move on.
Life is like that.
But since it doesn't seem right or reasonable, sometimes we fight those relationships, or sometimes we let ourselves go in them, and gain a lot of insight into life and ourselves.
I don't think that Buffy was banging Spike for the sex. She's a pretty girl, she could have found any number of safe, clean, living guys, with souls to have safe, clean, protected sex with. Sex was how they played it out, but her connection with Spike was on many levels. It was a handy way to communicate, to bring her demons to the surface so she could slay them. He gave her permission to be what she was, even the parts of herself she feared and despised, he was OK with.
We all need that at sometime in our lives. to be given permission to be whatever it is we are, even if it's not pretty.
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Blair Waldorf-Bass
Great post hun! :)