Redemption arcs: best or worst thing about Buffy/Angel?
NotASlayer
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Bad. The show simply didn't have the time needed for redemption arcs and they were often completely ignored. The only one that had any merit was Angel's, because, thanks to it taking a century, they were able to do flashbacks of various points in it.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Agree!
thrasherpix
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I like the idea, but I don't think redemption arcs were done well in the series. So I'm conflicted between voting Good (as I like the idea and the character growth implied by it) and Bad (the shows were all over the place, inconsistent at best, and typically did not handle them well).
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
I voted for bad because they were not done particularly well and their victims do not come back. When the victims are not available to make amends to, how can there be redemption? Even in 12-step programs, one of the steps is to make amends to everyone you have harmed.
wolfheart
Barking at the Moon
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Good at the beginning early years when Joss and co had a genuine fascination with the idea of redemption. So much so they did an entire spin-off show exploring it.
But after a time it came very tired, lazily written, repetitive ('close ally "goes evil" and we wonder if they can be brought back tot he side of good/ever be redeemed') and, frankly, not so much a character arc as 'this is something this character can ponder for an episode' or whatever.
Like, it was actually a character blip. A character oops. A character 'yeah I know I killed some people but I feel really bad about it so can we just move on?' No arc to be seen.
I mean, nobody in Buffy S7 main cast actually cares about redeeming themselves for past mistakes/body counts, they're just there to wrap up personal storylines or whatever.
But after a time it came very tired, lazily written, repetitive ('close ally "goes evil" and we wonder if they can be brought back tot he side of good/ever be redeemed') and, frankly, not so much a character arc as 'this is something this character can ponder for an episode' or whatever.
Like, it was actually a character blip. A character oops. A character 'yeah I know I killed some people but I feel really bad about it so can we just move on?' No arc to be seen.
I mean, nobody in Buffy S7 main cast actually cares about redeeming themselves for past mistakes/body counts, they're just there to wrap up personal storylines or whatever.
wolfheart
Barking at the Moon
I mean, nobody in Buffy S7 main cast actually cares about redeeming themselves for past mistakes/body counts, they're just there to wrap up personal storylines or whatever.
@thetopher interesting look at the matter, i hoped for season 8 then but 7 seasons is a good run
@thetopher interesting look at the matter, i hoped for season 8 then but 7 seasons is a good run
AlphaFoxtrot
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Angel, obviously, good. Spike needed to show some remorse, but to get back to business, fine.
Willow... Never really did anything to atone for her wrongs. Like, you are a witch. You can check on the dead. You can revive the dead! Do an episode that's kind of a cross between Hellraiser and Passing Through Gethsemane. Buffy vs. Fornicus the Hell Lord!
Andrew: I thought the lesson was okay. But, I don't care much for Andrew. He can open the Puzzle of infinite delights for all I care.
Willow... Never really did anything to atone for her wrongs. Like, you are a witch. You can check on the dead. You can revive the dead! Do an episode that's kind of a cross between Hellraiser and Passing Through Gethsemane. Buffy vs. Fornicus the Hell Lord!
Andrew: I thought the lesson was okay. But, I don't care much for Andrew. He can open the Puzzle of infinite delights for all I care.
hoponlilmama
Very few care for Andrew... ;)
hoponlilmama
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Of all the redemption arcs - Faith's is the best, Angel's was decent too. Still more of Faith's to explore, but as the good folk in this thread have already responded, not enough time was dedicated to them.
Do we know you can check on the dead? Yeah, you can manipulate souls. But is there any way to do that that doesn't drag them to this plane of existence?
AlphaFoxtrot
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Talking to the dead is Necromancy 101. Entry level Witchcraft has to be, discerning, detecting and communing with the spirits. You talk to them, propitiate them, gain their trust and favor. Then you go about learning their secrets and getting them to do stuff for you.
Even if Willow didn't earn the knowledge for herself, it should be a small thing to go back and figure out how to locate Warren, and figure out what happened to him after she killed him. Maybe he's in heaven, I hear they look down on killing people during confession. Maybe he is in hell, and restoring someone to life to give them an opportunity to turn themself into the police and serve a jail sentence seems like a more merciful act than immolation. I mean, unless you really believe Warren is worst than Angel. Is he? That sounds like a better idea for an episode than Willow is Warren and Warren is Willow?
We don't have the lore to know if that's true in the Buffyverse.
I mean I do. Not Angelus, but Angel yeah.
Not particularly. I would personally like an ep where everyone, including Willow, has to come to grips with the fact Willow, feels guilty about torturing Warren and fighting her friends, but not actually for killing him
NotASlayer
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The problem with Warren was that, by the time Willow killed him, which I think was meant to be her shown as crossing a line, he was so disliked that the line wasn't there like it should have been.
yep. Buffy's whole, we should never kill humans was not respected by a good deal of the audience
NotASlayer
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Or even by Buffy, given the number of humans actively killed or who died as a result of her actions (many of them were bad people, like the Zookeeper). Plus it often didn't make sense.
I think the audience reaction to Warren's death was supposed to be "Oh no, that's awful! Willow's gone too far." but I strongly suspect that the reaction, thanks to S6 Warren being so awful, was more along the lines of "Nice one! He deserved it."
It's a wishy washy I won't kill you butvI don't have to save you characterized in Nolan's Batman. I don't know if creators have realized many fans don't care for them trying to have it both ways, villain dies, hero is oh so pure since then
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