Reversing The Order Of Appearence

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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Okay, suspend your disbelief for a moment, and visualize an alternate Buffy Universe. Buffy comes to Sunnydale in "Welcome To The Hellmouth," pretty much follows the established plot line, except that, instead of meeting Angel, tortured ensouled vampire, she meets Spike, the subject of a government experiment, who has the famous chip in his head. For whatever reasons, he forms an alliance with the Slayer that changes over the weeks from associate to assistant, to partner, to friend, to lover.

In Season 2, Angel, vampire with a soul comes to town, all tortured and broody, but instead of being helpful, he's pretty much as depicted in various flashbacks from his own series, basically a recluse, not getting involved with anyone or anything unless forced to.

Now, the obvious question, primarily for Bangel shippers, anyone else can offer their opinion as well. Under those circumstances, who would you rather see Buffy with?
 
haha! Couldn't agree more with Kean!

Angel would somehow evolve. And by the way, Spike appears with a chip in his head. Still evil and soulless. But defanged.
Angel has a soul. And he did amazing stuff using that soul.

Anyway, for me Angel is meant for Buffy and I will always believe that. This thing can not be repeated with any other. Always Bangel!
 
I'm lost...who the hell is Spencer Pratt? Am I missing something?

I don't, in all honesty, believe that Spike and Buffy could ever have any kind of 'normal' relationship. Sex, yes, and lots of it, but not anything emotional, even if she met him first.

Chipped Spike wasn't really any different from un-chipped Spike, he was, as Buffy herself said, like a serial killer in prison. It would have to have something monumental to make Spike side with her back in WTTH, as he had no previous knowledge of her, or what she was like as a person. To Buffy, Spike was always a vampire first, a man second, and back then, she had one out look on vampires...they were evil. Buffy had many, MANY, underlying reasons for sleeping with Spike. In S1 and S2, she would have had no reasons, so I don't see that ship happening anyway.

Angel, on the other had, is a different matter. Had Spike actually proved to her that a vampire can be trusted without a soul, then a vampire with a soul would have intrigued her, she would have wanted to know more, until she worked her way into Angel's world.

Yeah, I'm still going with Bangel, lol.
 
white avenger
white avenger
I've never heard of Spencer Pratt either.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Spencer Pratt is this guy who is married to this girl who used to be on this bad reality show called "The Hills." He's a real jerk.
Lyri said:
I'm lost...who the hell is Spencer Pratt? Am I missing something?

I don't, in all honesty, believe that Spike and Buffy could ever have any kind of 'normal' relationship. Sex, yes, and lots of it, but not anything emotional, even if she met him first.

Chipped Spike wasn't really any different from un-chipped Spike, he was, as Buffy herself said, like a serial killer in prison. It would have to have something monumental to make Spike side with her back in WTTH, as he had no previous knowledge of her, or what she was like as a person. To Buffy, Spike was always a vampire first, a man second, and back then, she had one out look on vampires...they were evil. Buffy had many, MANY, underlying reasons for sleeping with Spike. In S1 and S2, she would have had no reasons, so I don't see that ship happening anyway.

Angel, on the other had, is a different matter. Had Spike actually proved to her that a vampire can be trusted without a soul, then a vampire with a soul would have intrigued her, she would have wanted to know more, until she worked her way into Angel's world.

Yeah, I'm still going with Bangel, lol.
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Spencer from the Hills, gobshite extraodinaire!
 
For anyone else who doesn't know Mr Pratt...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InH9mQ2Mw1w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InH9mQ2Mw1w[/ame]
 
I really don't know that. I mean, if their relathionship would look like it looked like I would like to see her with Angel, once again. With Spike, well I love his bad side, so I wouldn't like him as a character probably, so the final answer is Angel.
 
I'd go with neither, seeing as I don't judge a 'ship without looking at it's development, but I suppose I'd pick Spike if I had to...

But honestly guys, no offense, but IMO you're all being really silly and proving my point. 😀 What WA has asked us to consider is what if the roles were reversed. He has made Spike take on the basic role and placement of Angel, while Angel has the basic role and placement of Spike. What you all are saying is that you'd prefer Spike with Buffy, since Spike is the new Angel.

By choosing a 'ship simply by the characters name you are saying that you rely on appearances only in a 'ship and don't look deeper to the real relationship. Plus, in this fantasy world, the characters are pretty different from the Buffyverse, yet they are being judged by their names and not their actions.

So in conclusion, by choosing Angel you are saying you prefer Buffy with Spike and vice- versa. 😀 Or at least that's how I see it. 🙂

I don't, in all honesty, believe that Spike and Buffy could ever have any kind of 'normal' relationship. Sex, yes, and lots of it, but not anything emotional, even if she met him first.

Chipped Spike wasn't really any different from un-chipped Spike, he was, as Buffy herself said, like a serial killer in prison. It would have to have something monumental to make Spike side with her back in WTTH, as he had no previous knowledge of her, or what she was like as a person. To Buffy, Spike was always a vampire first, a man second, and back then, she had one out look on vampires...they were evil. Buffy had many, MANY, underlying reasons for sleeping with Spike. In S1 and S2, she would have had no reasons, so I don't see that ship happening anyway.
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Lyri honey, did you watch Season 7 yet? Because all of Spuffy S7 is beautiful love, acceptance, and friendship. So I don't have the slightest clue how you could ever think all they do is sleep together. 😀
 
X
xaphania
Hmm... but they'd still have their personalities (or in Angel's case, lack of one :P). And Spike's just fits better with Buffy, IMO.
E
Eleftheria
well...WA suggested that Spike with the chip was introduced first...not Spike with the role of Angel...
Wishing Oceans said:
Lyri honey, did you watch Season 7 yet? Because all of Spuffy S7 is beautiful love, acceptance, and friendship. So I don't have the slightest clue how you could ever think all they do is sleep together. 😀
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Yes, I've watched S7, and what they have then is beautiful, soul-consuming, whatever. But that's AFTER they've gone through all that stuff that it took them 6 years to get through and Spike had a soul. The Spike and Buffy that WA is talking about never would have had that, they never had that history, they never worked through all that, so I stand by what I said. Spike and Buffy aren't capable of having a real, emotional relationship. They wouldn't be able to trust each other enough.

And Kean, I've never even seen a single episode of The Hills....I have NO idea, lol!!
 
Kean
Kean
He's a cretin babe! Seriously, we don't like him ;)
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
How can you never have seen the hills!, It may be trash, but it's good trash!
Washburne
Washburne
I stay far, far away from The Hills. I don't want to know anything about it.
Lyri said:
Yes, I've watched S7, and what they have then is beautiful, soul-consuming, whatever. But that's AFTER they've gone through all that stuff that it took them 6 years to get through and Spike had a soul. The Spike and Buffy that WA is talking about never would have had that, they never had that history, they never worked through all that, so I stand by what I said. Spike and Buffy aren't capable of having a real, emotional relationship. They wouldn't be able to trust each other enough.

And Kean, I've never even seen a single episode of The Hills....I have NO idea, lol!!
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But as I've aforementioned, in the fantasy world WA suggested, he reversed the general roles of Angel and Spike. Therefore Spike would basically be the same person to Buffy that Angel was. So it wouldn't matter what happened in Buffy, because these characters are different. 😀
 
Wishing Oceans said:
But as I've aforementioned, in the fantasy world WA suggested, he reversed the general roles of Angel and Spike. Therefore Spike would basically be the same person to Buffy that Angel was. So it wouldn't matter what happened in Buffy, because these characters are different. 😀
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I sort of disagree with this, because even if their general roles were reversed, their personalities wouldn't be.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
true, true :)
Originally posted by White Avenger
instead of meeting Angel, tortured ensouled vampire, she meets Spike, the subject of a government experiment, who has the famous chip in his head.
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No, Spike wouldn't be the same person as Angel, he would be S4 Spike. Chipped and soulless, he just would have came into Buffy's life a lot sooner, without any of the history that Buffy had with him. The reason Buffy never staked Spike after he was chipped as because she didn't feel right, killing what she saw as a defenseless creature.

Yes, Buffy might have had to form an alliance with Spike over The Harvest, but the fact remains that he was a vampire, and a soulless one at that. No way would Buffy have started a relationship with Angel in S1 if he had been soulless. The only reason she could see past the vampire aspect of Angel's nature was because he had a soul. Even if, in this alternate reality, Spike and Buffy became allies, or even friends, she still wouldn't have taken it to that next level, because he was soulless and she knew she could never trust him enough. It's the same thing as their relationship in S6, she is fine with sleeping with him and, in her opinion, using him, but she gets uncomfortable when she remembers that Spike's feelings for her are real, and Riley reminds her that she's sleeping with a soulless murderer, so she ends it. Their relationship in S7 is different because she knows Spike has a soul, and therefore, is not the same man he was in S6.
 
white avenger
white avenger
And no way would she have started a relationship with Angel in Season 1 if she had known at first that he actually was a vampire.
Wishing Oceans said:
But as I've aforementioned, in the fantasy world WA suggested, he reversed the general roles of Angel and Spike. Therefore Spike would basically be the same person to Buffy that Angel was. So it wouldn't matter what happened in Buffy, because these characters are different. 😀
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No, what WA is saying is that Buffy met Spike (and everything that character entails) first and met Angel (and everything he is) second. He is not swaping the names of the characters, you are.
 
E
Eleftheria
exactly
Kean said:
No, what WA is saying is that Buffy met Spike (and everything that character entails) first and met Angel (and everything he is) second. He is not swaping the names of the characters, you are.
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Actually, what I said was that Angel would be what he would have been without ever having met Buffy, because Whistler never met him. That means that he would be either a brooding recluse or a rat eating alley dweller in possession of a soul.
 
white avenger said:
Actually, what I said was that Angel would be what he would have been without ever having met Buffy, because Whistler never met him. That means that he would be either a brooding recluse or a rat eating alley dweller in possession of a soul.
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Yes, but Spike would have been the same person we saw in S4, that's where I was going with that. Angel might be different and eating rats, but he would still have had a soul, and was ultimately on the side of good, even if he didn't know or want to be. Spike would have only been working for/with Buffy because he didn't have any other choice. Buffy might not have had that compassion about staking helpless creatures in S1 if she didn't know him as she did in S4.
 
E
Eleftheria
Agreed. That's why I always question Spike's motives about Buffy and in everything he does actually.He doesn't have a choice.The chip makes him stop killing humans.But Angel chose not to...he has a soul!
white avenger said:
Actually, what I said was that Angel would be what he would have been without ever having met Buffy, because Whistler never met him. That means that he would be either a brooding recluse or a rat eating alley dweller in possession of a soul.
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Ok, fair enough but it still wasn't having Angel and Spike basically swapping names but remaining the same characters.
 
They still had the same personalities, true, but their roles were different. Like, Angel was introduced as a mysterious vampire who couldn't harm humans without feeling pain. They form an alliance, fall in love, etc, etc... It would be the same with Spike, the way I see it. 😀
 
Lyri said:
Yes, but Spike would have been the same person we saw in S4, that's where I was going with that. Angel might be different and eating rats, but he would still have had a soul, and was ultimately on the side of good, even if he didn't know or want to be. Spike would have only been working for/with Buffy because he didn't have any other choice. Buffy might not have had that compassion about staking helpless creatures in S1 if she didn't know him as she did in S4.
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Buffy had no idea that Angel was a vampire when they first met, and, in fact, didn't learn until after she was already making romantic notes about "A" in her diary. They were friends before she found out, or he would have never had time to explain about his soul. If Angel and Spike have their roles reversed with the exception of the soul and chip, then she would have accepted Spike as an ally before finding out the same thing about him.
 
Wishing Oceans said:
They still had the same personalities, true, but their roles were different. Like, Angel was introduced as a mysterious vampire who couldn't harm humans without feeling pain. They form an alliance, fall in love, etc, etc... It would be the same with Spike, the way I see it. 😀
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I disagree because Buffy didn't fall in love with the description of Angel, she fell in love with him, who he was as a person. Saying Buffy would fall in love with any tortured vampire type that came along is seriously doing a disservice to her as a character.
 
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