Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

[xaphania]

I've discussed this topic several times with other BBers and have finally decided to make a thread out of it, because it's a subject we can never agree on: the breakdown of Riley and Buffy's relationship and their treatment of each other prior to that - and in particular, where the blame lies.

From Riley's PoV the relationship broke down because Buffy was more focused on her slaying than she was on him. He thinks that her experiences with Angel, Dracula and Spike mean that she wants a boyfriend that's not so Ordinary Joe. He thinks she isn't giving enough of herself to him and wants to experience that 'darkness' for himself.

To refute this: she's the Slayer, she has to be focused on slaying. Riley's insecurities about Angel, Dracula and Spike and the idea that Buffy needs the darkness reflect back on him rather than on Buffy. Until he starts acting out about these insecurities, Buffy seems perfectly content in their relationship. It's clear that she cares about him and we've seen how far she went to help him when he had problems with his heart. She isn't giving enough of herself to him? She's got enough to deal with in regards to Glory, Dawn and her Keyness and her mother's illness.

From Buffy's PoV the catalyst to the relationship breaking down because Riley was getting suckjobs from vampires. That's pretty much it, as far as I can see. They were drifting apart before this and the relationship would probably have inevitably ended in some other way further along the line... but that's not what happened.

RILEY: They want me back, Buffy ... the military. (Buffy looks up in shock) It's deep undercover, no contact with civilians. Transport's leaving tonight.
BUFFY: Tonight? When were you gonna tell me about this?
RILEY: I'm telling you now.
BUFFY: Are you going?
RILEY: I don't know. If we can't work this out...
BUFFY: Then what? This is goodbye? (Riley shrugs. Buffy gets mad.) You are unbelievable. You're giving me an ultimatum?
RILEY: No, I'm not.
BUFFY: Yes you are! You expect me to get over it now or you're gone!
RILEY: I don't, Buffy, that's not what I meant.
BUFFY: Well, I have heard enough. (angrily) I will not take the blame for this. (Starts to walk away.)
RILEY: I'm not asking you to. (Grabs her arm yet again)
BUFFY: Let go of me! (pulls her arm away)
[...]
RILEY: I'm leaving, Buffy.
She stops walking but doesn't turn to face him. He turns to speak to her back.
RILEY: Unless you give me a reason to stay ... I'm leaving tonight.

Riley gives Buffy this ultimatum after he was clearly in the wrong, and I hate him for it. It's an incredibly selfish move.

In my conversations with other BB members on this subject, the males side with Riley quite definitively and the females side with Buffy. I wanted to open this up to more people and see if this is a common trend.

Thoughts?

 

[Goldilocks]

This is a hard question.. But I think Riley was a great boyfriend, and Buffy treated him badly. e.g. she forgot the plans she made with him ('Real Me' I think). He started to accept that she is the Slayer and she had duties, but she felt too superior and that's why she lost him. She never needed him, and Riley mentioned that as they discussed the female vampire he hung out with every nights. ("They need me")
So I blame Buffy.

But Riley annoyed me big time when he came back in "As You Were".

 

[GrrArghx]

I'm female and I side with Buffy.

I feel the same way you do. Riley was incredibly selfish and unbelievable. He put his own life in danger because of his own stupidity and then he tried to blame Buffy for it! I cannot tell you how happy I was Buffy missed that helicopter because I don't think I would've been able to stomach watching Buffy apologize and beg Riley to stay after doing that to her!

 

[msfantastico87]

I can Kind of see why people would side with Riley, regardless of what gender they are. Riley wanted to be able to share love and affection. However, I do think Riley was pretty much a one man relationship. He was jealous of everything Buffy did, including her "career path". He was clearly one of those men that insisted she be the damsel in distress so that he could save her. I hate that about him. He wanted to be the only one in Buffy's eyes. Which, in a way is understandable. But I just can't get past the fact that he treated her like a damsel in distress when clearly she could take care of herself, you know, being the slayer and all. I also hate how he gave her that ultimatum. He never tried to make Buffy feel as an equal to him.

I think you know which I voted for.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

They're both to blame.

Riley was a typical male. Thought he has to protect his little weak girlfriend from all of the bad things out there. Then he found out that she's tougher than him, and that she doesn't need him. It was fine for a while, until he realized he needs her. He probably thought he's not a male in their relathionship anymore, and just wanted a little fix. He found that with that vampire.. they needed each other.. it was mutual. Just what he needed. When the army came along again, he saw that as a perfect deal.. but he loved Buffy more. So he gave her a chance to convince him to stay.

Buffy, on the other hand, was happy with their relathionship because she got used to that. Angel never complained when she saved him, and he was as powerful as she is, so she probably never thought about Riley's feelings. When he tried to talk about it, she found it strange, because she couldn't understand it. But later, Buffy became selfish. She calimed she has feelings for him, but never showed that. She had a lot of problems in her life at the time, with her mom and her sister, and he was right there, offering his help.. and she didn't wanted to take it.. because she thought she was strong. When she saw him with that vampire.. her pride was gone. So she did nothing when he told her he's leaving.

But she wanted him to stay. Her pride just didn't let her say it. Until Xander pointed it out. Then she regreted it, because it was too late. There is this Croatian song that has this lyric 'When pride comes, love is already packing her bags'..

So, I would say they're both to blame, to not listening each other out. So I guess that makes me undicided.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

The thing that always bugged me about Riley is...He basically wanted to force her to break down to him, which just wasn't right. He couldn't handle being the boyfriend that wasn't relied upon and needed constantly.
Buffy had a LOT on her plate. Moreso than most. Some could argue that she was still a child herself, forced to deal with not only being a Slayer, but having to be a PARENT to her sister, AND her mother at that point. She had so many human things to deal with, and she just wasn't used to not being able to slay or use some kind of spell to take care of a problem. It wasn't just Riley she didn't open up to, it was everyone. Her friends, her family, everybody. She was completely closed down and it was because of the fact that she was FINALLY facing a REAL HUMAN problem that couldn't be solved by shoving a stake through something.
I will always side with Buffy on this, no one can convince me differently. She didn't even know what she was doing, she didn't understand how much she was pushing him away, and I truly believe she didn't mean to. Instead, he was a jerk, went and got himself bit and sucked off of, and THEN had the nerve to give her an ultimatum that he only gave her like, 20 minutes to decide on. No, Riley, just...No. A responsible adult would have sat down and talked to her about it, instead of just getting all huffy and rushing off like a little bratty child.

 

[Taake]

I'm female and I side with Buffy.

I feel the same way you do. Riley was incredibly selfish and unbelievable. He put his own life in danger because of his own stupidity and then he tried to blame Buffy for it! I cannot tell you how happy I was Buffy missed that helicopter because I don't think I would've been able to stomach watching Buffy apologize and beg Riley to stay after doing that to her!

Agreed, I voted the same because this post reflects my own feelings.
Though Buffy perhaps didn't prioritize Riley a lot during this season there was reason behind that, good ones, and though I can understand his points to a certain degree I find him incredibly selfish for the most part of s5 and needy as he was it was just time for him to go.

 

[zobothehobo]

I feel very strongly about this. I'm a female and I side with Buffy. Riley pissed me off. I didn't like him before, but when he started getting suckjobs from the vampires... It was like "if you want to be there for your girlfriend... GO BE WITH YOUR GIRLFRIEND!" I just couldn't believe that at a time where Buffy had the issues with Dawn, Glory, and her mother to deal with Riley was trying to make it about him. It wasn't about him. Buffy was going through A LOT and I was in SHOCK Riley wanted it to be about him... and he wanted her to need him. Buffy COULDN'T need him. It's a coping mechanism... the degree to which this coping mechanism is healthy or not is another story... but if Buffy were to ask for help, she'd be admitting to herself how bad it was... that it was so bad she needed help. With the slayer stuff, she can do that... she's done it all a long. But emotional stuff... Buffy's ALWAYS been the one to not ask for help and be strong around others. That's who she is. If Riley didn't like that, it was in no way fair for him to ask her to change especially when she's going through so much.

 

[NY State of Mind]

NY State of Mind

Ok let's break it down...Buffy gets into hard times with her mother dying and her having to take care of her younger sister and stops paying interest into Riley cause of these situations. Riley not feeling needed/or loved and pushed away starts look for neediness in other areas in a twisted perception on how to understand Buffy. Riley gets caught and ultimatum time...yadda yadda

I don't agree with Riley's decision but I understand it and not because of me being a male. I like to think of me being able to put myself into anybody's shoes. AND I'M NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT BUFFY NOT LOVING RILEY ENOUGH, ETC CAUSE I'M NOT GONNA MEASURE LOVE ESPECIALLY FICTIONAL ONES.

From my experiences, I've been left cause I refuse to be completely open about my feelings and past situations because I don't want to reflect on those darker times. I've been left cause I refuse to completely be open when the female(s) were sharing everything. Simple and Plain she felt she wasn't getting enough out of the relationship and finally called in quits. I can understand it looking back because I understand her feelings now but could only understand mines at the time.

I think a lot/not all females can put themselves in Buffy's place cause they see and can react to what she's feeling. But a lot of females leave men for the same feelings Riley has which is funny to me. I've seen many women leave men because there man's life gets so crummy they develop anger or coldness out of depression...and the female leaves cause they feel mistreated or not needed. I totally understand why you would leave cause anyone with self pride is eventually going to leave if there not getting what they need out of the relationship.

Simple and plain, Buffy didn't acknowledge Riley and pushed him away...he left...now do I see her side cause of what she was going through...ofcourse I do even though she couldn't understand Riley's until Xander spoke and she was too late, etc.
Did Riley do a douche move on the way he left with the quick decision making...yes! Do I still understand his feelings/motive...yes! Even though he couldn't fully understand Buffy's.

To me both couldn't see from each other's perspectives which doomed the relationship. Now it may seem I was on Riley's side more cause of my argument but it's only because I know most will automatically side for Buffy. But I'm neutral, I blame both equally...which is why I voted Neutral.

I hope everyone understood my horrible typing 🙂 ....Peace, Love, and Hairgrease!

 

[brinkster130]

I am a girl and I think that they both made mistakes that all factored into the ending of their relationship, so I voted neutral. I can see both sides and I can understand why the acted as they did.

Riley loved Buffy and he knew that she didn't love him back the same way. He felt like he wasn't good enough and reacted immaturely (hooking up with vamps, giving ultimatums etc.). Buffy cared for Riley, but I don't think he ever came close to her feelings for Angel. She didn't let Riley in and was selfish at times as well. I thought that both of them cared about their pride more than the others feelings.

To sum it up...IMO Riley was a rebound from her relationship with Angel and a stepping stone to her relationship to Spike.

 

[BuffyElevated]

As a woman, I side with Riley. I have always said that even though both sides had their share of the blame, Buffy was more responsible for the downfall of their relationship. I know that Buffy had a LOT to deal with in the months prior to Riley leaving, but that's why it's important to have your "soft place to fall". Riley could have been that for Buffy. He was more than willing to be that for her, and she wouldn't even cry in front of him. If you can't let down your walls in front of the people you're supposed to love the most, how can you expect them to be there for you?

 

[The Unspoken]

I can Kind of see why people would side with Riley, regardless of what gender they are. Riley wanted to be able to share love and affection. However, I do think Riley was pretty much a one man relationship. He was jealous of everything Buffy did, including her "career path". He was clearly one of those men that insisted she be the damsel in distress so that he could save her. I hate that about him. He wanted to be the only one in Buffy's eyes. Which, in a way is understandable. But I just can't get past the fact that he treated her like a damsel in distress when clearly she could take care of herself, you know, being the slayer and all. I also hate how he gave her that ultimatum. He never tried to make Buffy feel as an equal to him.

I think you know which I voted for.

Uhm...WRONG! There was some awkwardness at first, but Riley got over it pretty fast and he seemed perfectly content fighting by her side. He was nothing but understanding and patient.

Riley didn't want Buffy to be closed off and have to deal with things alone - not because he was being neglected as a result of it, but because of what it was doing to HER. His 'issues' were anything but selfish.

 

[Tome]

I've debated this again and again with Amy, so I'm going to try and write all I can remember I said.

It was hard to pick my vote because I side a little bit more overall with Riley, but I disagree with his choice of using vampire whores a bit before the break up. I ended up choosing the 'side with Riley', but I'll explain exactly why now.

First of all, from Riley's PoV the relationship didn't break down because Buffy was too focused on her slaying. It started breaking down because she(as usual) started keeping stuffs to herself. She didn't wanna show her pain and sadness to him. Now, is that necessary in a relationship? I don't think EVERYONE needs his/her partner to be open about his/her feelings. But for most people, it's important. And to be fair, probably a bit more for guys. Anyway, for Riley it WAS. He needed Buffy to be more open with him. When her mom was going through a really hard time, he wanted to be able to help Buffy through it, to be part of it. But she shut him down, she put him aside. Now I can understand people who says he sounded selfish there, because it can be seen as him thinking more about himself than what was happening to Joyce. But, the way I see it, he simply wanted to help Buffy. Would Buffy have went to see Angel if she had still been with him? I'm pretty sure she would have. Aren't couples supposed to support each other? Why didn't Buffy trust Riley enough to relay more on him? I think that when she told her mom something along how he'd be there whenever she'd call him, it was clearly showing she took him for granted. He was useful, when she felt like it.

Second of all, you've got the scene in 'Sanctuary' where Angel and Buffy are arguing and Buffy tells him that now she has someone she can ''trust''. Trust my ass! As we've seen later on, she didn't trust him as she claimed.

Now there's the whole debate about Riley feeling inferior to Buffy because he wasn't as strong as her. That he wasn't DARK enough for her. I think that once he lost his *juice* that the Iniative had gave him, he DID have that fear that he wouldn't be on the same ground as Buffy if he was just a normal guy. But I honestly think he pretty much moved past that afterward. Like he told Buffy in their argument in 'Into The Woods', it was not that big of a deal anymore that he wasn't as strong as her. The problem was the whole trust issue. The fact she didn't open up to him. It was also difficult at that point to be sure if she actually LOVED him.

As for the vamp whores, I think it was stupid and dumb for him to do that. He should have talked to Buffy about the whole trust issue sooner. That was his own fault for not saying anything. All he did with that is hurt Buffy. Actually, speaking of talking sooner... This is what I always thought was the biggest problem for Buffy & Riley. They didn't talk to each other enough. If they had actually said some things sooner, they could have fixed their relationship, or actually improved on it. As much as I love Buffy(she's definitely my fav in the show), I think one of her bad traits is keeping too much things for herself. I know she has this huge weight to carry on her shoulders being the Slayer and all, but on multiple occasions she didn't trust her friends/boyfriends enough to confide some things that were hurting her inside. As for an example that doesn't concern Riley, the fact that she didn't tell her two best friends(Willow and Xander) about her dangerous relationship with Spike in s6. This led to Xander finding out probably the worst way he could have.

Before I finish this really long post, I have to point out that there is one thing I thought Riley lacked, and that could have helped the relationship a bit. He needed a personal goal apart from just being Buffy's boyfriend. He was pretty much just there for her, and I understand why in that case he cared so much about her confiding in him. What other goals did he have?? Take that away from him and he was useless. I think he really should have had other reasons to be part of the team. But for me that was the writers underdoings.

To conclude, I understand Buffy for being pissed he'd give her an ultimatum, considering HE had just hurt her. It didn't feel right, and I'm sure Riley felt bad about it too. But, finally there was something else he could actually focus on(the military demon hunters squad), and he wanted her to give him a reason to stay. I think in the long run, it was better for him to leave, because at that point his character actually got a goal for himself. But I'm still always sad when Xander does his speech and Buffy runs to catch Riley before he leaves... If only they had talked sooner. 🙁

 

[slayerfox]

Im not that keen on Riley but I do think the majority of the blame for there relationship ending definetly lies with Buffy, she took him for granted often, was closed off and pushed him away. Leading him into the arms of a vampire, even if it was a stupid thing to do I understand why he did it and honestly cant blame him for giving her an ultamatum. She even says in the gift she was never there for Riley, not like she was for Angel.

 

[Abbeycat]

I'm keeping it neutral. I can see the side of Riley's and Buffy's that's why I couldn't quite decide on one side more than another.

 

[StarSlayer]

No surprise...I 100% blame Riley. At the end of the day, he chose to leave and end their relationship. He chose to give a stupid ultimatum. If a female did that to a male, I would still feel the exact same way.

Here's my beef with Riley, the allegedly "normal" boyfriend. I actually had no problems with him in s4. It was s5 that made me hate him with a passion. You can sugar-coat the blame being on both sides, but I strongly believe all the blame lies with Riley. First, when Riley explains why he went to the vampire whores, he basically compares them to Buffy, and she despised that. I mean, male or female, how would you feel if the person you're in a relationship with said, "I crave these whores, and they hunger for me. I feel something when I'm with them, since you don't feel it with me. Unlike you, they need me." Buffy had every right to be upset with Riley. She hated how he was telling her what she feels, and I hated him too. Compared to his vampire whores, Riley didn't feel like Buffy needed him. Well, desperate and lonely vampire whores could make anyone feel needed, so that's a poor example Rye-man.

Second, one of the main reasons why I cannot stand Riley, he puts the blame more so on Buffy rather than himself. He tries to make the whole situation more about how Buffy never let him in, which is what drove him to the vampire whores.

BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
BUFFY: Well, whose fault its that? Because I'm telling you, this is it, this is me. This is the package. And if it's so deficient that you need to get your kicks elsewhere ... then we really have a problem.

Finally, to make matters worse, Riley gives Buffy a timeframe for her to feel something for him. Not only does Riley tell Buffy what she does or doesn't feel, he tells her to feel something quickly or else he's gone. He gives her this stupid ultimatum, although it seemed like she wanted to work things out. But, nope. Riley had to leave. He wasn't willing to work things out. He was selfish and inconsiderate at this point and I hate him for it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I blame Riley and yes I am female although that has nothing to do with it. I hate him, in fact. He made a fool out of Buffy and disrespected her. I can't forgive him for that. It might be different if he had been sorry, but instead he blamed her and then gave her an ultimatum.

He was an insecure, arrogant, bullying, self-righteous assh*le who couldn't stand the idea that his girlfriend was stronger than him. I never felt bad for him and I never will. Despite his less than admirable traits, I liked him alright up until he started going behind Buffy's back and getting suck-jobs from vamp whores. There is no excuse for what he did. He blamed Buffy for his cheating. Give me a break.

I seriously hate Riley more each time I re-watch an episode featuring him. He’ll do something decent, which will be promptly ruined by something completely moronic. He’s a bully, cocky, macho, and patronizing. Yet, he can also be sensitive, genuine, and even admirable. In all fairness, the conclusion I’ve come to is that his character was just badly written. There’s too many inconsistencies.

Riley ditched the Scoobies to go allow some vamp whore to get off on sucking his blood. That’s not admirable or responsible or forgiveable. Then, he goes back to Buffy and spends a romantic night as if nothing is happening! UGH!

Riley even says that he allowed the vamp whores to bite him because it might help him “get” Buffy better - huh? He can’t deal with the fact that she didn’t need him. He is such a loser. Riley can’t deal with a strong women, period.

You can’t handle the fact that I’m stronger than you.

 

[The Unspoken]

I blame Riley and yes I am female although that has nothing to do with it. I hate him, in fact. He made a fool out of Buffy and disrespected her. I can't forgive him for that. It might be different if he had been sorry, but instead he blamed her and then gave her an ultimatum.

He was an insecure, arrogant, bullying, self-righteous assh*le who couldn't stand the idea that his girlfriend was stronger than him. I never felt bad for him and I never will. Despite his less than admirable traits, I liked him alright up until he started going behind Buffy's back and getting suck-jobs from vamp whores. There is no excuse for what he did. He blamed Buffy for his cheating. Give me a break.

I seriously hate Riley more each time I re-watch an episode featuring him. He'll do something decent, which will be promptly ruined by something completely moronic. He's a bully, cocky, macho, and patronizing. Yet, he can also be sensitive, genuine, and even admirable. In all fairness, the conclusion I've come to is that his character was just badly written. There's too many inconsistencies.

Riley ditched the Scoobies to go allow some vamp whore to get off on sucking his blood. That's not admirable or responsible or forgiveable. Then, he goes back to Buffy and spends a romantic night as if nothing is happening! UGH!

Riley even says that he allowed the vamp whores to bite him because it might help him "get" Buffy better - huh? He can't deal with the fact that she didn't need him. He is such a loser. Riley can't deal with a strong women, period.

You can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you.

Riley's 'issue' with Buffy's strength and Slayer status wasn't an issue. There was some awkwardness in that department at first, but he got over it pretty fast. He certainly isn't the uber-macho prick you make him out to be.

In 'Forever' we see how Buffy bottles up all her grief over her mother's death in an unhealthy way. In 'Intervention' she even questions her ability to love. This is what Riley in a way was trying to prevent. He didn't want Buffy to be closed off and have to deal with things alone - not because he was being neglected as a result of it, but because of what it was doing to HER.

 

[Taake]

In 'Forever' we see how Buffy bottles up all her grief over her mother's death in an unhealthy way. In 'Intervention' she even questions her ability to love. This is what Riley in a way was trying to prevent. He didn't want Buffy to be closed off and have to deal with things alone - not because he was being neglected as a result of it, but because of what it was doing to HER.

Oh I can't stress this enough because I'm a bottling things up kind of person myself but what Riley is doing there, now I'm paraphrasing, "trying to prevent Buffy from becoming closed off" is not cool cause he's not doing it out of selflessness. He doesn't want her to be closed off because he wants her to love him like he loves her.

Not to mention trying to force someone to open up when they don't want to is an invasion of privacy in my book.
If Buffy would have wanted support then she would have asked for it because she knew he was there. He knew that and this made him insecure so he started pushing.

And the more he tried to hold on the more she slipped away, why? Because people don't like to be forced into something they're not ready for. If he could have just cooled his heels, given her some time, then perhaps Buffy would have found what she needed inside herself to dare to open up to him.

But he was too insecure and he allowed that to rule his actions.

 

[zobothehobo]

Riley's 'issue' with Buffy's strength and Slayer status wasn't an issue. There was some awkwardness in that department at first, but he got over it pretty fast. He certainly isn't the uber-macho prick you make him out to be.

In 'Forever' we see how Buffy bottles up all her grief over her mother's death in an unhealthy way. In 'Intervention' she even questions her ability to love. This is what Riley in a way was trying to prevent. He didn't want Buffy to be closed off and have to deal with things alone - not because he was being neglected as a result of it, but because of what it was doing to HER.

I feel like that's just a cop-out because you want to like Riley. There was no indication that Riley was doing what he was doing for her. Also... in what way can you twist cheating on her by getting suck jobs from vamp whores for her? That's ridiculous. Riley wasn't upset with Buffy for her own good. And if he was, he made no notice of it at all. Not even in his ultimatum speech.