Sad week in Orlando

[Washburne]

I get tired of people blaming guns for everything.

If that's how you saw my post I clearly did a very poor job at getting my point across.

The gun is not to blame.

Yes, yes. Guns don't shoot anyone by themselves. Very true. At the same time denying that access plays a part sound a bit naive. I know I won't change anyones mind. Just expressing my own.

The average civilian doesn't buy them, but people that go shooting, hunting or use them for home defense buy them.

Hunting must be very different at your place if that's the gun that's needed. Although I will admit I don't keep up with what hunters are using here nowadays. Home defence? Things must be way worse than I'd ever imagine.

 

[white avenger]

Its a bit like saying you wouldn't stop a rapist because chances are he or should would still find something else bad to do like murder.

Then maybe I stated it wrong. How about this: banning the access to any type of firearm to the general public as a deterrent to mass killings is like banning sex to the general public as a deterrent to rape. Or this : no one should be allowed to own and operate an automobile because one person tends to get drunk and run over pedestrians.

I have no problem with denying deranged and mentally disturbed individuals access to firearms, ANY firearms, even though, frankly, I doubt that that one measure in and of itself would stop them from finding a way to do harm to others. My objection comes from the idea that 100,000 normal, law abiding citizens should be denied the rights guaranteed to them by the Constitution because one maniac wants to break already existing laws, such as murder, assault, and acts of terrorism, among others. Find a reliable way to identify the potential killers and deny them both the means and the opportunity to act, but do so in a way that doesn't infringe upon the rights of law abiding people.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Home defence? Things must be way worse than I'd ever imagine.

In cities it generally takes 10 minutes for police to respond to a call (some cities are far worse). In the country it could be half an hour or more. Depending on where you live and how you live, rifles are a much better option for home defense.

 

[Mr Trick]

Then maybe I stated it wrong. How about this: banning the access to any type of firearm to the general public as a deterrent to mass killings is like banning sex to the general public as a deterrent to rape. Or this : no one should be allowed to own and operate an automobile because one person tends to get drunk and run over pedestrians.

I have no problem with denying deranged and mentally disturbed individuals access to firearms, ANY firearms, even though, frankly, I doubt that that one measure in and of itself would stop them from finding a way to do harm to others. My objection comes from the idea that 100,000 normal, law abiding citizens should be denied the rights guaranteed to them by the Constitution because one maniac wants to break already existing laws, such as murder, assault, and acts of terrorism, among others. Find a reliable way to identify the potential killers and deny them both the means and the opportunity to act, but do so in a way that doesn't infringe upon the rights of law abiding people.

I agree that its a bigger picture type of thing and that is why I think education is a big part of solving the problem. But that still doesn't change the fact that guns are way too easily accessible in America. And I remain to be convinced that there is much merit to owning one. If I owned a gun and was told hey, we're going to take your gun away just incase your a manaic who might shoot someone, but don't worry we're doing it to every other gun owner, then I would be fine with it. And the sex example really isn't the same at all.

 

[The Bronze]

I get tired of people blaming guns for everything. The gun is not to blame.

Very true. The gun is manufactured to kill people and it has carried out its intended purpose. No use in blaming the gun for doing its job. The blame here lies with this individuals repulsive attitude and a society that allows easy access to weapons that can kill large numbers of people in seconds.

 

[Buffy Summers]

If I owned a gun and was told hey, we're going to take your gun away just incase your a manaic who might shoot someone, but don't worry we're doing it to every other gun owner, then I would be fine with it.

Except that the criminals would still have illegal guns, so all you're doing is removing the legal guns. The legal ones might make the headlines when something terrible happens, but the real numbers are made with the illegal guns.

Do I think people need assault rifles? No. But it's a slippery slope and banning legally obtained guns is just something that politicians use to make it seem like they are doing something when they're really doing nothing.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Those poor people. 🙁

The number of mass shootings in America have drastically increased since all of the government cuts to mental health funding. People with psychiatric issues (and no insurance) are ending up in prisons, on the streets...this really needs to be addressed.

As for guns; NO, they shouldn't be banned. Period. Should we ban cars because of drunk driving accidents...?

 

[bespangeled]

Orlando shooting exposes so many of America’s faultlines

Orlando shooting exposes so many of America’s faultlines
S0 many American fault lines - homophobia, gun violence, terrorism, security, thought-police, religious bigotry...

 

[Blaze]

I think too many people are dismissing it as a hate crime when just last week it was said:
"The smallest action you do in the heart of their land is dearer to us than the largest action by us, and more effective and more damaging to them, and if one of you wishes and tries hard to reach the Islamic State, then one of us wishes to be in your place to hurt the Crusaders day and night without sleeping, and terrorize them so that the neighbor fears his neighbor."

The fact this happened during Ramadan is not a coincidence either. I just think by people calling it simply a 'hate crime' lessens with it actually was.

It's quite the opposite, especially for the LGBT community right now. Whether this guy was ISIS, or any other kind of extremist (you have plenty of choices here, since most extremist religions hate gays), this was an act of homophobia. The guy hated gay people. He picked a gay club because it would be filled with LGBT people. He also picked latin night, which was hosted by trans people of colour. All this is not a coincidence. This was an act of violence aimed at people for who they were. We can't erase that.

Too many people want to focus on the act of terrorism, or on ISIS, but we can't forget that a lot of those homophobic values are also taught in the States, even by people of power. There's already been groups praising this man's action, and those are now ISIS group, those are Americans. So when leaders who are known to be homophobic are suddenly concerned for the LGBT people that lost their lives, they just want to push their own agenda against ISIS. Yes, maybe ISIS was involved, but so far there's no proof of that aside from the man's word. The family have confirmed that this man was not a practicing Muslim, and he did not partake in Ramadan.

Yes, it's important to see the bigger picture, but it's important to remember that this, at its roots, was a hate crime. Saying that it wasn't diminishes the way the LGBT community feels right now.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Orlando shooting exposes so many of America’s faultlines

Orlando shooting exposes so many of America’s faultlines
S0 many American fault lines - homophobia, gun violence, terrorism, security, thought-police, religious bigotry...

And also so many of the good things about America, like the way the community came together to donate blood, different counties and religious leaders and just people in general coming together to help.
 

The family have confirmed that this man was not a practicing Muslim, and he did not partake in Ramadan.

Though, the father did come out and label his son as a homophobe rather quickly - I'm not sure we can say this wasn't religiously motivated. Having said that, it's a hate crime regardless, whether it was hate against LGBT or hate against America or whatever it was.

 

[bespangeled]

Most of that size have bouncers and wands but that is only good for lawful people. There is no way that would deter him. He called the police before he even set foot in the club, no amount of security would have prevented it. Security at the door cannot prevent terrorist acts.

He killed at least one armed guard. Whatever security precautions a place like that can make aren't ever going to be enough for someone determined to kill.

The only security which could have done something to prevent such a tradgedy is the federal law enforcement, who apparently let the guy slip through their fingers twice.

They interviewed him but it was a thought police situation. He had no record - he was a body builder and a security guard, and he wanted to become a police officer. He did make inflammatory comments at work about 3 years ago, but that was really it.

He was bi-polar, and I suspect that had more to do with the shooting than religion. If noting else, he bought the weapons legally, and his background check didn't show that he was mentally unstable.

The fact this happened during Ramadan is not a coincidence either. I just think by people calling it simply a 'hate crime' lessens with it actually was.

Hard to say but it looks like an unstable bigot - the Muslim version of the crazy evangelical who shoots up an abortion clinic.

He was also bipolar, Mateen’s ex-wife, Sitora Yusufiy, told reporters in Boulder, Colorado.

“He was mentally unstable and mentally ill,” Yusufiy said. Although records show the couple didn’t divorce for two years after the marriage, Yusiufiy said she was actually only with Mateen for four months because he was abusive. She said he would not let her speak to her family and that family members had to come and literally pull her out of his arms.

*****
(Former co-worker) Gilroy called him an angry, loud, profane man who used slurs for gay people, blacks, Jews and women. “He never used other words to describe them,” Gilroy told the Tampa Bay Times. Mateen also regularly made threats of violence, according to Gilroy.

Yes, it's important to see the bigger picture, but it's important to remember that this, at its roots, was a hate crime. Saying that it wasn't diminishes the way the LGBT community feels right now.

It was clearly and absolutely a hate crime first, last and always.

 

[Blaze]

Though, the father did come out and label his son as a homophobe rather quickly - I'm not sure we can say this wasn't religiously motivated. Having said that, it's a hate crime regardless, whether it was hate against LGBT or hate against America or whatever it was.

Oh I agree that it might have been religiously motivated. We just have no confirmation as of yet aside from one phone call (which has not been made public) where he states he supports ISIS. At this moment there's just not enough info to confirm that. But we do have enough info to know that it was aimed at LGBT people. He knew the club was an LGBT club. The crime was premeditated. He also knew it was latin night, where many people of colour, and trans people were performing. That's what makes it a hate crime against LGBT people. This guy aimed a LGBT safe place.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I'm just saying, we don't yet know what the motivations were. What his father said doesn't really hold weight. It's hate whether religiously motivated or not.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

The man was unstable. He was enraged. And what he did was horrifying...
However, the rush to label him a terrorist and the emphasis on his nationality is typical of the current American political climate. It's nauseating that certain politicians and law enforcement agencies are using this tragedy to further their own hidden agendas.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Agree with that. It's the same with using it for gun control agendas.

 

[white avenger]

But that still doesn't change the fact that guns are way too easily accessible in America. And I remain to be convinced that there is much merit to owning one. If I owned a gun and was told hey, we're going to take your gun away just incase your a manaic who might shoot someone, but don't worry we're doing it to every other gun owner, then I would be fine with it.

Take away the legal accessibility to firearms, and they will still be available illegally for criminals, just as they are in England, Japan, and Australia. The only difference will be that far too many law abiding citizens will either be left defenseless, or will, themselves, become criminals by buying firearms illegally. In that case, you have eliminated the process of Federal background checks, which, although not perfect, do still prevent some people from having access to guns.

f you see no merit in owning a gun, then, by all means, don't bother to own one. That is your choice, and I fully support decision. As for myself, and most of my friends, we do see merit in owning guns, and get quite a lot of enjoyment from their use without breaking any laws. That's called freedom of choice, and this nation was founded on it.

History has proven, time again, and quite tragically in most cases, that maniacs will always be able to get what they need in order to achieve their goals. Making others helpless to resist only makes those goals more easily attainable.

It isn't just coincidence that almost all mass shootings occur in area where law abiding citizens are denied the right to have guns. Mass murders target gun free zones for a purpose, just as they avoid places like shooting ranges and gun shows.

 

[Fuffy]

Both the LGBT club mega massacre and the murder of Christina Grimmie were senseless, horrible acts done by deranged people.

2016 is probably the suckiest year in a very long time 🙁


WWBD if she was stuck in a terror attack ? Probably kick the terrorist's ass with her slayer powers 😀

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Both the LGBT club mega massacre and the murder of Christina Grimmie were senseless, horrible acts done by deranged people.

That goes without saying. And it's only going to get worse, I'm afraid. 🙁

I'm just saying, we don't yet know what the motivations were. What his father said doesn't really hold weight.

And we'll probably never know. Pretty much every "authority" figure is lying and/or spinning information to suit their own purposes.
As for the father (and ex-wife), they'll say anything to keep the general public from going after them. After a horrifying event such as this, many Americans, fueled by the media, will be searching for scapegoats. And the old, "Hang 'em high!" mentality will infect those who feel the need for retribution.

 

[brinkster130]

I think this is bigger than a gun or mental health issue. Sure, those both play a role in these types of crimes but I don't think they are the only two things responsible. And until people can agree about that I don't see how anything can be done to start looking for a solution to this problem.

On another note, I first heard about this shooting via the new Facebook safety check in feature they have...noticed a few friends checkin in as "safe" in Orlando. Crazy world we live in where our social media sites are now rolling out features to let your loved ones know how your doing in a situation.

 

[white avenger]

Both the LGBT club mega massacre and the murder of Christina Grimmie were senseless, horrible acts done by deranged people

But that can be said for every mass killing. There is no rhyme or reason to any of them. They are nothing more or less than random acts of terrorism, committed by suicidal fanatics in order to advance their own agenda. There is no recognizable, predictable pattern, and no way to predict when or where something like this can happen, and it could be done just as easily with a personal explosive device, a firearm, or a couple of gallons of rat poison in a school water supply.

You can go to Barnes & Noble or Amazon and buy books on how to make explosives from common, everyday items and the proper techniques to deploy them in the most efficient manner.

Remember the old Chinese curse about living in interesting times? Well, it's gotten to be absolutely fascinating lately.