Season 9 news #2

[wickedtiger86]

Hey guys, the other thread reached it's limit.

Going forward, please try to keep the conversation on news about the series, like information from interviews and possible plot twists. 🙂

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Chosen Enemy wrote:
Things have changed since then.


I don't think an attempted rape is something can really change.

That's the problem: I think B/A and S/B can't really recover from the things I tried to put in evidence above. If the writers just wanted to be realistic. At least a little.

I was talking as a whole. The dark place they were both at at that time, it's not there anymore. I'm not saying forget the AR happened, I just know that Spike is not the same person he was in season 6, and neither is Buffy. It's a fact that things have changed, you can't be stuck on the bad from the past, every character have and had their dark phase. But it's not something that can't get better with time.
Angel too, has changed. But you seem to forgive and forget what Angel did, even though he's done worse than what Spike have done. Buffy always forgives both of them, even about the AR. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, but you should look at things as a whole, there's a whole story there, not just this one thing.
What can you do? Stay stuck on the past, or see a chance for a better future, for all characters? Things come and things go, bad happens to everybody. Willow has killed a human. Does that mean we should be stuck at when she did it?

 

[cordangel]

There's a difference between B/A and B/S. Buffy could forgive Angel because he did what he did without a soul, yes, but mainly because he was different from the boy she has previously fell in love. Her relationship with Spike began with him without a soul and in this stage of their relationship he tried to rape her. In other words, it is the same guy with whom she began a relationship.


And I don't think Warren can forgive Willow.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

There's a difference between B/A and B/S. Buffy could forgive Angel because he did what he did without a soul, yes, but mainly because he was different from the boy she has previously fell in love. Her relationship with Spike began with him without a soul and in this stage of their relationship he tried to rape her. In other words, it is the same guy with whom she began a relationship.


And I don't think Warren can forgive Willow.

Spike was also without a soul in Seeing Red. And he was better than Angel without a soul. Angel without a soul wanted Buffy hurt and later dead, he killed her friend and was about to kill her other friends. Spike could feel love for Buffy without a soul. And after he tried to rape her, he felt so guilty he went to win his soul back for her. Can you see Angel doing that? Feeling remorse for all he's done to Buffy? Winning his soul back for her?
So yeah, you're right. There is a difference. Spike was a much better man without a soul, even with the attempted rape that made him hate himself so much. He knew he did something wrong, even without a soul. Angel without a soul? Never, I'm sorry.
The Spike from season 6 was not at the same state that later Spike was, the darker Spke. And it was shown very well in season 7, where he was slowly pulled into the light. And you can see it during season 9 as well.

 

[cordangel]

Spike was also without a soul in Seeing Red. And he was better than Angel without a soul. Angel without a soul wanted Buffy hurt and later dead, he killed her friend and was about to kill her other friends. Spike could feel love for Buffy without a soul. And after he tried to rape her, he felt so guilty he went to win his soul back for her. Can you see Angel doing that? Feeling remorse for all he's done to Buffy? Winning his soul back for her?
So yeah, you're right. There is a difference. Spike was a much better man without a soul, even with the attempted rape that made him hate himself so much. He knew he did something wrong, even without a soul. Angel without a soul? Never, I'm sorry.
The Spike from season 6 was not at the same state that later Spike was, the darker Spke. And it was shown very well in season 7, where he was slowly pulled into the light. And you can see it during season 9 as well.

I'm not arguing about better or worse. I tried to explain the difference between begin a relationship with whom who was previously different and endures a dramatic change and a relationship with someone who, at the stage of the attempted rape, is the same person with whom you began the relationship.

Please, don't begin a war, this time about Angel and Spike. I am tired of that.

I just wanted to clarify, that, for me, a relationship between Buffy and Spike AND between Buffy and Angel can't exist anymore.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm not arguing about better or worse. I tried to explain the difference between begin a relationship with whom who was previously different and endures a dramatic change and a relationship with someone who, at the stage of the attempted rape, is the same person with whom you began the relationship.

Please, don't begin a war, this time about Angel and Spike. I am tired of that.

I just wanted to clarify, that, for me, a relationship between Buffy and Spike AND between Buffy and Angel can't exist anymore.

All I'm saying is that you try to see things as a whole, and not seeing only the bad things, where clearly these are different things. Also, I don't think Buffy even saw that as a relationship, not in the beginning.
I agree that both did bad things, but it's not ALL they've done.
I myself don't see her having a deep relationship with anyone else. Even with Riley it didn't get to the point where it was as intense as it was with Angel and Spike.

 

[white avenger]

Personally, I think that there are some folks here who are always eager to drag out the astronauts vs cavemen argument comparing Bangel and its supporters to Spuffy and its supporters, and I am, without a doubt, one of the worst offenders. And, in my case, at least, I find myself having done it long before I even realize what I've done. It's an addiction, folks, a disease that creeps in and takes control before you even know how bad off you really are. I try to fight it, but I'm just too weak. We need to form some kind of support group, like Shippers, Anonymous. If we band together, help and support, but never judge each other, we CAN defeat this thing.

If we really want to.

 

[cordangel]

"It's an addiction, folks, a disease that creeps in and takes control before you even know how bad off you really are. I try to fight it, but I'm just too weak."

Yeah, addiction is a very sad condition.

 

[zianna]

I just want to add something that came to my mind when reading the locked, now, thread.

Buffy has already been a waitress for 4 moths in #40. And the time passed between the spacefrak until her getting a job as a waitress in SF, plus the time that has passed from the end of #40 until #5 of Season 9, must be at least one more month. So that's at least 5 months.

So, if Buffy got pregnant by Angel that means she's at least 22 weeks pregnant. If Buffy is 22 weeks pregnant, she wouldn't have considered abortion as an option. Or at least she would have talked to her doctor first and then to her sister and especially then to Robin. In the UK, it's still legal to have an abortion at 24 weeks, under some circumstances. What about California's law? Anyway, my point is, that Buffy had been having her period regularly, so at least she also believes that she got pregnant during the party, but certainly not during spacefrak.

 

[Icarium]

In the previous thread ladydorotea wrote:

The death of Jenny, Tara, Cordelia-Connor dalliance etc were probably the less popular things about their respective seasons - yet not only Joss went for these plots - they also were never reversed, forgotten or written off. In fact , these events became fundamentals to shape the seasons to come - exactly because this is Whedon's MO. He won't change it just because large part of the fandom hated it. And the staff tends to follow Joss plot. So far death of Giles has been cornerstone do A&F. I fully expect the Twilight story to come from under the rug it had been swept under pretty soon.

Joss wanted to bring Tara back in S7 (or at least wanted to appease the fans enough to lie about it in order to deflect blame). He wrote off Cordy because of a conflict with Charisma Carpenter. Jenny's death gave him a reputation of a ballsy storyteller without losing a really pivotal character and he has repeated this ever since, except for when he needs to get rid of the actor or when the show is all but over. If he were so ballsy he wouldn't have brought back/saved from seemingly certain death at least one of Spike, Angel and Faith who "coincidentally" happen to be far more popular than the characters who were killed and not brought back. Joss is very much not above playing favourites and sweeping the transgressions of those favourites under the carpet. Joss is already repeating ad nauseum how S8 "got away from him and it was too comic book-y" so I find your assertion that he wouldn't make a U-turn when confronted by fans disappointment quite hilarious.

Willow is gone - and likely to England, but they made certain that she does not know about the pregnancy before she went. One channel of communication closed. I see no reason for them to let Angel know till the end of the season- and I see all the reasons for nobody telling him. More drama again. and yes, the two series are supposed to be two parts of a whole, not separate, even thou they are separate.

Well, if Joss is looking for a sure way to piss just about everyone that would be it. Who exactly is going to be happy about that?

 

[ladydorotea]

In the previous thread ladydorotea wrote:
Joss wanted to bring Tara back in S7 (or at least wanted to appease the fans enough to lie about it in order to deflect blame). He wrote off Cordy because of a conflict with Charisma Carpenter. Jenny's death gave him a reputation of a ballsy storyteller without losing a really pivotal character and he has repeated this ever since, except for when he needs to get rid of the actor or when the show is all but over.

You might go over each individual angsty plot twist and compartmentalize it , explaining why it is/was not a tendency, I can see that - and it is very funny.

Lets try again:

Joss also killed Joyce - and used her death for bringing home the whole growing up issue, which I believe he is repeating with Giles death - add Giles to the list as well. Btw, in the end Tara was never brought back ( I heard she was supposed to be in CwDP - driving the sharp point in - not that she was coming back alive .) Conflict with Charisma developed *after* she got pregnant - but that also happened *after* Cordy was originally supposed to be killed by Angel's hand in S4. She was supposed to be Jasmine - not give birth to Jasmine, which actually would have been worse - because of no 'You are Welcome' episode. Also Fred died horribly on his watch of Angel - so he can bring in Illyria - who was never written off and is now very active in the comics. My point is - JW is like an elephant who *never forgets.* Every little scrap of a hint can be dug up and used - like that obscure Xander's mention of 'I am going to marry that girl' - whilst pointing at Dawn. And Twilight story is simply too big to be forgotten - especially counting in the future of the verse - that is yet to happen ( Fray future) and 200 years in the future Dark Willow's perspective.

If he were so ballsy he wouldn't have brought back/saved from seemingly certain death at least one of Spike

This one can be put at the feet of the network that issued an ultimatum - no Spike no renewal of AtS.

Angel and Faith who "coincidentally" happen to be far more popular than the characters who were killed and not brought back. Joss is very much not above playing favourites and sweeping the transgressions of those favourites under the carpet. Joss is already repeating ad nauseum how S8 "got away from him and it was too comic book-y" so I find your assertion that he wouldn't make a U-turn when confronted by fans disappointment quite hilarious.

And I find your insistence that JW writes his stories on purely fan-pleasing premise equally hilarious.

Well, if Joss is looking for a sure way to piss just about everyone that would be it. Who exactly is going to be happy about that?

Hmm,you are overestimating the numbers of the fanbase that is purely invested into *that* ship. Same as you are underestimating Joss' ball-s - ness. And I seriously think that DH team is counting more on the 'genuine' Whedon crowd , inured to pain and expecting masochistic turn of events than trying to cater to a particular crowd. All the pandering aside - what have truly happened so far in the comics is very far from any shippy fanfiction ( for all factions). I totally expect the plot to continue on the same path - going for the maximum pain and derived melodrama.

 

[Icarium]

And I find your insistence that JW writes his stories on purely fan-pleasing premise equally hilarious.

I find your strawman annoying. I never said he writes the story purely to pander to fans, just that he has never shown a desire to get rid of the most popular characters and he has kept the two most popular ships alive far longer than any of the other ships. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Joss also killed Joyce - and used her death for bringing home the whole growing up issue, which I believe he is repeating with Giles death - add Giles to the list as well.

What's that have to do with anything? You are not going to say that Joyce was some incredibly popular character, are you? As for Giles, let's wait and see if he won't be resurrected too.

This one can be put at the feet of the network that issued an ultimatum - no Spike no renewal of AtS.

Yeah, there is always an excuse with Joss, isn't there? The networks, Amber Benson, Charisma Carpenter, the fans who don't get his genius. Maybe he needs to man up and admit his own mistakes once in a while. I don't know how plausible this info is but even if the network pressured Joss I doubt he was crushed as Spike was his pet anyway. Nobody pressured him into keeping Spike alive in the comics and once again making him the go to guy for Buffy.

Also Fred died horribly on his watch of Angel - so he can bring in Illyria - who was never written off and is now very active in the comics.

Illyria who oh, so conveniently was starting to resemble Fred not just because of her looks by the end of the show? Seemed to me Joss wanted to have his cake and eat it too once again - he would kill Fred but would later make Illyria a cooler Fred with superpowers and everything. And with her he wouldn't be bothered by that pesky morality thing that he didn't seem interested at all in the later seasons. Win-win.

All the pandering aside - what have truly happened so far in the comics is very far from any shippy fanfiction

I don't know, S9 really resembles a crappy Spffy fanfic so far, IMO. S8 had the space frak that was supposedly Joss's gift to the Bangels. It backfired but I can totally believe Joss didn't expect the backlash.

And Twilight story is simply too big to be forgotten - especially counting in the future of the verse - that is yet to happen ( Fray future) and 200 years in the future Dark Willow's perspective.

It's not forgotten but rewritten into "Angel killed Giles, zomg!". The problem is this kiil is Angel's most easily defensible action during twilight stint. You honestly don't find it weird they are concentrating on that?

 

[zianna]

JW is like an elephant who *never forgets.*

Until Warren and S8 proves the opposite. Or Buffy Summers terrorist in the very front page.😛

This one can be put at the feet of the network that issued an ultimatum - no Spike no renewal of AtS.

Spike's resurrection had nothing to do with the renewal of AtS. Joss at the beginning of season 7 had already known that he was going to kill Spike at the end of BtVS, and he told that to Marsters, actually telling him that they only knew that they were going to kill him but not to worry because he would be resurrected, they just didn't know what to do with his character in the meantime, meaning the first 3/4 of S7.

At that point Joss was planning a Faith spin-off with Faith, Robin and Spike as a ghost. When Elisa denied it, Joss used the plans he had for Spike in AtS. Yes, the network actually demanded Spike to renew the show, I'm just saying that Spike would have been resurrected one way or another.

Nobody pressured him into keeping Spike alive in the comics and once again making him the go to guy for Buffy.

That.

 

[ladydorotea]

What's that have to do with anything? You are not going to say that Joyce was some incredibly popular character, are you? As for Giles, let's wait and see if he won't be resurrected too.

Actually she was. Popular and loved. And no, I don't expect to see Giles back ever. Unless in flashbacks.

Yeah, there is always an excuse with Joss, isn't there? The networks, Amber Benson, Charisma Carpenter, the fans who don't get his genius. Maybe he needs to man up and admit his own mistakes once in a while. I don't know how plausible this info is but even if the network pressured Joss I doubt he was crushed as Spike was his pet anyway. Nobody pressured him into keeping Spike alive in the comics and once again making him the go to guy for Buffy.

Spike is not a guy for Buffy as far as I can see - I was worried he would be, but the first arc sorta buried that.

Illyria who oh, so conveniently was starting to resemble Fred not just because of her looks by the end of the show? Seemed to me Joss wanted to have his cake and eat it too once again - he would kill Fred but would later make Illyria a cooler Fred with superpowers and everything. And with her he wouldn't be bothered by that pesky morality thing that he didn't seem interested at all in the later seasons. Win-win.

Fred is still dead. So is Wesley . (Sniff)

I don't know, S9 really resembles a crappy Spffy fanfic so far

Huh ? Spike's 'I love you' - no you don't only clause have been basically buried. He is relegated to the support stuff status , and the main writer calls his cause 'unrequited love'. Buffy basically ignores him, and uses him as a doormat circa S5, soul and all. Yes, she jokingly puts him on the list of the guys who could have frakked with her - and conveniently forgot to mention it next morning. Soul and all. Some fanfic.

IMO. S8 had the space frak that was supposedly Joss's gift to the Bangels. It backfired but I can totally believe Joss didn't expect the backlash.

Some gift it was. Apart form the 'Buffy and Angel transcend everything'. I am of the opposite opinion here - he knew he was doing the mauling, but 'they had a reason'.

It's not forgotten but rewritten into "Angel killed Giles, zomg!". The problem is this kiil is Angel's most easily defensible action during twilight stint. You honestly don't find it weird they are concentrating on that?

No. Growing up and becoming a parent figure - father figure is the main theme of Angel's season.

Until Warren and S8 proves the opposite. Or Buffy Summers terrorist in the very front page.

Actually. I think it proves just the opposite. When Whedon wants to keep a character 'in' he disregards the killed him clause.

Spike's resurrection had nothing to do with the renewal of AtS. Joss at the beginning of season 7 had already known that he was going to kill Spike at the end of BtVS, and he told that to Marsters, actually telling him that they only knew that they were going to kill him but not to worry because he would be resurrected, they just didn't know what to do with his character in the meantime, meaning the first 3/4 of S7.

Dubious. All the post S7 interviews point to the opposite. Not knowing what to do with the characters is actually the biggest clue.

At that point Joss was planning a Faith spin-off with Faith, Robin and Spike as a ghost. When Elisa denied it, Joss used the plans he had for Spike in AtS. Yes, the network actually demanded Spike to renew the show, I'm just saying that Spike would have been resurrected one way or another.

Actually yes, the network made Spike's inclusion the condition of AtS S5. "our ratings are low , so lets bring in Spike" is exact quote from Joss' interview.

 

[Reddygirl]

I'm a Spuffy, Buffy is my favorite character, Spike is second (though I do love all the other characters, also).

I'm very satisfied with Buffy's, Spike's and Spuffy through 6 issues. If anything at all was to happen between Buffy and Spike romantically in 9, I was pretty sure it wouldn't happen until later in the season (UST and all that).

Yes, Spike is Buffy's go-to guy. And Spike is getting a chance to do what he should have done in 6 - be Buffy's friend and companion. There is no way Buffy is ready to start a new romance with anyone; clearly she's still suffering from the fall out of what happened in the last part of 8. I don't want to see a repeat of 6 (though I do love that year). Having Buffy and Spike be good friends the way they became in 7 and then slowly having something blossom between them is what I'm hoping to see.

 

[Icarium]

Actually she was. Popular and loved.

Yeah, sure, Joyce was loved by many fans but the backlash after killing her would be nowhere near the backlash that would follow if Joss kills Angel, Spike, Willow or Xander, that's my point. Well, I am not so sure about Xander these days, but the other three for sure.

Huh ? Spike's 'I love you' - no you don't only clause have been basically buried. He is relegated to the support stuff status , and the main writer calls his cause 'unrequited love'.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that he keeps having these conversations with random new characters about his love for Buffy. In fiction this is never a set up for, you know, romance. Coincidence, nothing more, right? I don't know about you but in fiction whenever I see a guy heroically claiming he is okay with his unrequited love for somebody and yet the woman in question is still single and it seems that she might have a thing for the guy after all, in 99% of the cases this is exactly the case and they do hook up in the end. I don't like Spuffy at all, mind you, but the set up seems so obvious to me. Heck, Willow went...somewhere just so Spike would be the one Buffy would turn to about the abortion thing.

Buffy basically ignores him, and uses him as a doormat circa S5, soul and all.

What has she used him for exactly?

No. Growing up and becoming a parent figure - father figure is the main theme of Angel's season.

And this prevents the whitewashing of his Twilight-stint how exactly?

 

[zianna]

Actually. I think it proves just the opposite. When Whedon wants to keep a character 'in' he disregards the killed him clause.

Actually, no, it proves that Joss isn't an elephant and he forgets as himself had admitted it in one of the replies in the letter's column. Search the first issues of S8 yourself and you'll find him saying it.

Dubious. All the post S7 interviews point to the opposite. Not knowing what to do with the characters is actually the biggest clue.

Look, I've had the same conversation in BFs about Spike and season 7. I'll admit it, right now I'm too bored to search again for the interviews. Either google it yourself, or search my posts in BFs. At the beginning of season 7 Joss knew that he was going to kill Spike in S7E22 and resurrect him later, in the Faith spin-off. They just didn't know what to do with the character in the meantime, hence him being in a basement or in a closet the first part of the season. (Not only with Spike basically, with the mess they created probably they didn't know what to do with every character). Spike was going to be resurrected one way or another, that was Whedon's plan all along.

Actually yes, the network made Spike's inclusion the condition of AtS S5. "our ratings are low , so lets bring in Spike" is exact quote from Joss' interview.

Yes but again in Joss' mind Spike was going to be resurrected one way or another. Even if the network hadn't insisted on Spike, the character would have been resurrected probably in season 8 somehow or in a one-shot or in a mini series.

 

[Anya2012]

Can we stay on topic? I thought this thread was supposed to be news for season 9!

 

[yvinSlayerS]

This season started to become a Spuffy's badly writing fanfic, no surprise people are not buying season 9, the book sale are down!

 

[Kean]

But dont you think it made Angel look bad, degraded HIM, that he was willing to destroy the universe so he could live in a litte selfish world with Buffy alone?

You know what, that is a fair point. I think I disagreed with the original post because I felt it was saying that I, and other Bangel shippers, should feel degraded by S8. And I don't feel like that at all and I don't much appreciate being told that I should feel that way.

However, I do feel deeply disappointed by it.

I can twist S8 in ways that I am more comfortable with it. I can make sense of it, but I have to do it in a way that I really don't want to. No matter what way I look at it, my Angel and my Bangel lost (or had taken from them) elements of who they are that I feel are fundamental to who and what they are.

Does that mean I stop shipping or stop believing? Not in a million years.

🙂