Self-Identified Gender? How About Self-Identified Race?

vellavu

vellavu

Scooby
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Black Thorn
Do you support that white people self identify themselves to be minority races in order to enjoy the affirmative actions in school and job market?

I personally support this. Race should be self-identified. Using DNA and ancestors to decide race is wrong. Any welfare/positive policy for the natural-born minorities should also apply to self-identified minorities.

In "I'm a woman born with a male body" and "I'm a native American born with an European body", I believe that you have to accept both or reject both. I accept both.
 
Unless I misunderstand the concept, what we commonly refer to as "race" is, more accurately, "nationality." I self[identify my race as "human," and, though the antics of some of my fellow humans does sometimes make me wish that I could arbitrarily identify myself as something else, I'm pretty much stuck with that.

What we usually identify as "race" is actually "nationality," which is relatively easy to change, simply by assuming residence and citizenship in another nation. My nationality is the United States, specifically state of Georgia, and I identify myself as such. As far a I can find from family records, my ancestors' nationalities include Cherokee, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, German, and, possibly French, plus, I am sure, several others, but I don't consider myself to be any of those.
 
I don't think the two are the same (gender and race). As a Canadian, it would be wrong to self identify as a native and use their benefits when your ancestors never had to grow through what their ancestors did. You do not have the cultural heritage that they have. You may still identify or like their culture (I know I do), and be part of their culture, but it would be wrong to take away their benefits if you're white, and take away their traditions. It's not the same as identifying as a guy or a girl. In this case it's cultural appropriation to an extreme.

Even to a lesser extent, I love when English people (with no direct French family) integrate themselves into our Francophone festivals. I love to see that they are invested in our pride in the culture, and how they want to celebrate with us. But they will not understand the struggle we went through to get there. How we almost go assimilated and had to fight for our rights. So if one of them came and said that they are Francophones when they are not, it would take away from what I've been through and what my culture is, and it would not be okay. (note that I haven't really experience anyone doing this, but I wanted to use it as an example)

Here's an article on cultural appropriation:
What Is Cultural Appropriation and Why Is It Wrong?

Nationality, on the other hand, as in if I move to Germany, may I call myself a German? Than yes, that's fine. For example, I have friends from Korea, from Afghanistan, from Saudi Arabia, but they all have the Canadian nationality. So they are Canadian, as much as they are Korean or Arabian. Nationality isn't the same as race.
 
vellavu said:
Any welfare/positive policy for the natural-born minorities should also apply to self-identified minorities.
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The problem is that this would once again create a world in which the groups with power, simply obtains more power. And the minority with no power, loses even more of that power. So the majority grows stronger, and the minority grows weaker, until the race is erased.
 
Blaze said:
Nationality, on the other hand, as in if I move to Germany, may I call myself a German? Than yes, that's fine. For example, I have friends from Korea, from Afghanistan, from Saudi Arabia, but they all have the Canadian nationality. So they are Canadian, as much as they are Korean or Arabian. Nationality isn't the same as race.
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The thing that I can't understand is the current trend in the U S (I don't know if this is unique here or not) is the tendency to hyphenate nationality, as in, Irish/American, African/American, and my personal favorite, Native/American. Are you Irish, African, or American? As for "Native"/American, I'm as much a native to this country as anyone whose ancestors first came here across the Behring Straits in ancient times, and would be so, even if part of my ancestry didn't include Cherokee.

Even the term "American" isn't really used properly as applied to citizens of the United States exclusively. Canadians, Mexicans, and even natives of South America are all literally "Americans."

Maybe if we could somehow just forget all the "native," "race," and "minority/majority" crap and just identified ourselves as "people," all individual and unique, we could get along better.
 
white avenger said:
Maybe if we could somehow just forget all the "native," "race," and "minority/majority" crap and just identified ourselves as "people," all individual and unique, we could get along better.
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I agree! If we could live in a world like this, it would be great. But sadly, minorities, at this point and time, will exist. Of course, I think culture is really important for a lot of people, me included, so I wouldn't want to see that disappear. I would more so want everyone to be equal. In this case, absolutely, it would be easier to identify with many cultures if that makes sense. As it is the problem is with minorities and some groups having power while others do not.

As for the naming thing, I don't really know if that's really a thing here. I've never heard anyone say they were Native Canadian. Native American yes, but that refers more to the fact that they are from America, since Native could refer to anywhere in the world really, as I'm sure there are Native tribes elsewhere. But around here, they would say they are Native, the Canadian is pretty much understood without needing to be said. In a similar branch, I will say I am French Canadian, but that refers to the fact that I speak French and am from Canada, not that I am a French person from France. Cause sometimes if I just say I'm French, people think I'm from somewhere else.
 
vellavu said:
"I'm a woman born with a male body" and "I'm a native American born with an European body", I believe that you have to accept both or reject both. I accept both.
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I think this is comparing apples to oranges. Transgendered is often misunderstood as it is a concept that wasn't discussed much until recently. It is not the same as nationality. How you feel on the inside in regards to being a man or a woman cannot be chosen, it just is. But you can be adopted or marry into a different nationality than you were born into and then become part of that culture. It seems to me that gender is part of your innate being where as culture or nationality can be chosen or selected. Race cannot be selected in the sense of your ethnic background but if you are of mixed race it is likely you will identify most strongly with the race you were raised closest too. I believe it would be possible for someone to look white but have grown up in a bi-racial family and identify with the other part of their family. I have never heard of someone of one race saying they felt that they were born to the wrong race because they like some other sterotypical food, music, culture etc unless it is said teasingly ie I love lasagna I think I must be Italian. I think if I read this thread and I was transgendered I would feel uncomfortable with it and so I am treading lightly here. But I will say it is very different to be transgendered than it is to pick a race to join because you think there might be financial reward in it for you.
 
Blaze
Blaze
Yes exactly. I debated even answering in this thread because of the touchy subject, but you've summed up nicely how the two are different, and should not be compared
bespangeled
bespangeled
[No message]
To be honest, I don't understand self-identified race. Like, I understand being interested in, enjoying and wanting to immerse yourself in another culture that you're interested in and love; but does that love make you part of that race or nationality simply based on your feelings?

This reminds me of Rachel Dolezal; while I believe she respected, loved and wanted to be apart of the black community I don't know that someone who grew up as a white female in America can truly be apart of a minority group that faces difficulties that she wouldn't have experienced as a white female.

I hope I don't sound like an ass, I just genuinely don't understand it.

🙂
 
When the aliens finally invade Earth and eat or enslave us all, it's good to know that humans will probably embrace each other...and the concept of race/nationality will be unimportant.

Let the invasion begin soon, dear Lord.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
What if aliens are already here?
I totally get that you can feel that you belong to more than one culture. If I moved to another country, especially one with a different culture I'd try to embrace it the best I can. If I stayed there hopefully in time I'd feel like a part of it. At the same there's no chance I'd give up on the things "Swedish" culture/customs that I like and if I had children I'd pass it on to them. I'd want them to feel like they belong in the country that we're in, and I wouldn't call them swedes, but at the same time I'd want them being aware of our families past.

One thing people complain about in Sweden about immigrants is that they don't adapt to the Swedish culture/way of life fast enough. Sure it definitely cause some problems but I wonder how fast they'd adapt to living in a total different culture. It's not like it's to just turn a switch.

white avenger said:
The thing that I can't understand is the current trend in the U S (I don't know if this is unique here or not) is the tendency to hyphenate nationality, as in, Irish/American, African/American, and my personal favorite, Native/American. Are you Irish, African, or American?
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I can't say that I remember hearing about it in regards to any other countries but with my memory it wouldn't surprise me if people could give examples. I don't really pay attention to stuff like that.
 
vellavu said:
In "I'm a woman born with a male body" and "I'm a native American born with an European body", I believe that you have to accept both or reject both. I accept both.
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How would you qualify an european body? I don't agree with your view but feel free to try and change my mind. Maybe I just don't get it.
 
Washburne said:
How would you qualify an european body? I don't agree with your view but feel free to try and change my mind. Maybe I just don't get it.
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The same way the government qualifies a minority race by checking the ethnicity?

My point it, both are ridiculous. People are equal. People shouldn't be arbitrarily divided into different races and treated differently. Registering races for affirmative actions always reminds me of registering Jews in the third Reich, though the former claims itself to have a good intention. This is why I disagree this kind of thing and think there's nothing wrong to exploit its loopholes.
 
Well this really could be looked at a few ways. Some language has evolved with the internet, other taken on new meaning and others taken to original meaning.. How can gender be dismissed but DNA not be? I see your point.

Where does spirituality come into race? As in, if I was to claim I was Noongar because I believed in the rainbow serpent and the dreamtime - but I am white, how could I claim a link to this? Spiritually there have been many white people over the years who claim the same beliefs, who want to live the same lifestyle, but they are forbidden because of skin colour. Just like Im not allowed in the Gentlemans club because I am a woman (unless I was there naked for show), just like they (aborignal people) are not allowed to buy certain alcohol, just like I am not entitled to their benefits.

There are rules and they dont fit every one and never will, we are all going to have to live with what we actually are at some point.
 
vellavu said:
Do you support that white people self identify themselves to be minority races in order to enjoy the affirmative actions in school and job market?
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Not so much for school/job as I never saw that happening, but for college, yes. If you can get better tuition rates and more financial aid options because you have ancestry which allows you to exploit a loophole then that's fine in my book.
 
Here is where I have a big laugh, the gentlemen's club, a lot of them were run by religious people and didn't allow women patrons. Just like places in India, Syria, Pakistan and several other countries with folk like the Taliban. And I bet those Gentlemen's clubs didn't let coloured folk in even though Jesus was a coloured guy, considering where he was born.
Then of course there is the tales of Adam and Eve. Or the other side of the evolution/ creationism coin about all people coming from Africa.
Some folk ignore some parts of the bible, to whatever suits them. I could claim Anglo and Saxon and Viking. But that is all then there's the religious bits and all I know of are the Quakers, Pagan and Witch.
Going with DNA could bring about another problem because two white people from white families could give birth to a coloured child but two coloured people cannot possibly give birth to a white child. That to me promotes we were all coloured once, and the clever scientists can specify the woman who gave birth to humanity. And she wasn't a white person! But what does that make me?
I am what I am and that is enough for me. As for what race I am I'm human as far as I know, although I might possibly be from another planet as an asteroid has been found with the specific building blocks for human life.
 
brinkster130 said:
To be honest, I don't understand self-identified race. Like, I understand being interested in, enjoying and wanting to immerse yourself in another culture that you're interested in and love; but does that love make you part of that race or nationality simply based on your feelings?

This reminds me of Rachel Dolezal; while I believe she respected, loved and wanted to be apart of the black community I don't know that someone who grew up as a white female in America can truly be apart of a minority group that faces difficulties that she wouldn't have experienced as a white female.

I hope I don't sound like an ass, I just genuinely don't understand it.

🙂
Click to expand...

Rachel Dolezal sprang into my mind too when I read this. I think her reasons behind doing what she did were positive (in that she felt they were positive), but it's clear she offended both her white family in essentially denouncing them and also offended some African American communities by her lies. I don't agree with how she was vilified by the press though, she didn't do it to be offensive, but she was not raised as part of the black community, so how could she truly understand that community?

Whilst I understand the premise of what you're saying @vellavu I think it's important to differentiate a sense of self and a sense of being. This is how I see it (I'm not saying your view is wrong and mine is right, this is just my view)

Your ancestry defines who you are. It tells you where you came from, your history. Your parents, grandparents, their stories and experiences create you, but you can't change your past, or your families past. You could say
vellavu said:
"I'm a native American born with an European body"
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But you're not. Because unless you have that native American within your lineage, that's not your personal history. How can you identify with something you or your ancestors have never experienced? I agree we should all immerse ourselves in different cultures, understand their history, but just because you know their history, it doesn't make you one of them just by willing it so.

Your gender, on the other hand, doesn't define who you are. You can be born one gender and actually be another, because that's nothing to do with your past and everything to do with your future. You can experience first hand being a woman, but actually being a man, because that's who you are, and that experience is then passed down to your children and your childrens' children.

You can't change the past, (unless they invent time machines, but that opens up a whole new can of worms with time paradoxes and such), but you can change the future. In an ideal world, we'd all appreciate each other a little more, but it's our different cultures and rich histories that make us unique as a species.
 
Hey, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...but identifies itself as being a horse, then its a horse apparently.

Wasn't there a famous case recently where it turned out the head of some African American organisation was actually white, but she 'identified' herself as black so there was no deception?
 
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