Shanshu for angel or spike? what do u think?

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Faith/willowfan

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i think that the shanshu was meant for angel- and i was thinking the other day- i reckon angel atoned for his sins when he was sent to hell by buffy because he suffered torture for hundreds of years- maybe before he could recieve the shanshu, or search for ture atonement he must suffer the same amount of pain he put loadsa people through while he was angelus whereas spike never suffered for what he'd done he just sat in a basement for a few months, like angel said. however spike did make a good point he got his soul willingly, but for the wrong reasons whereas angel had his soul forced upon him, what does everyone think?
 
I think that it was meant for Angel, Angel may have signed it away but I thought TPTB decided on if he had fufhilled(sp) it and not W+H..
 
The prophecy certainly could be about Spike, but I think it was about Angel. There may be something where he must be willing to give it up in order to receive it. I know that's not mentioned... ever... but many books that involve prophecy have something like that involved.
 
True, I think its of Angel also. I mean, before Spike got his soul the prophecy was made known. Besides, Angel has been trying to redeem hisself way before he met Buffy. Spike started in season seven of Buffy. To Shanshu, is for Angel.
 
::fire:: Girl, shut up! You don't even know what you are talking about! You dont even watch Buffy like that! Anyways, as I was saying, the prophecy IS meant for Spike! Never clear on the who or the when. And prophecies are age old foretelling the future!!!! They tell of what is to come!
 
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Faith/willowfan
very well though out
Cordelia Chase* said:
::fire:: Girl, shut up! You don't even know what you are talking about! You dont even watch Buffy like that! Anyways, as I was saying, the prophecy IS meant for Spike! Never clear on the who or the when. And prophecies are age old foretelling the future!!!! They tell of what is to come!
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is it f*** for spike, angels done so much and hes bin to hell and suffered torture for centuries he has payed for his crimes, spike aint dun jack xcept save the world once, big whoop
 
Please,could you guys stop?.I will contact an Admin if you keep fighting.
Everyone can think whatever they want. I think it was meant for Angel,sorry if it bothers.
Bad-mouthing is not allowed on Buffy Boards,so please...
 
Thank You Magui-you guys have to except each others opinions if you expect to carry out a conversation on BB. Keep the arguing down to a minimum please.
 
Personally im of the opinion that the prophecy has already been fullfilled for Angel through his son Conner. So when Angel "signed it away" he was signing something that didnt mean anything anymore anyway.

Prophecies are always "iffy" to interpret but if you consider that the shanshu prophecies were used in bringing back darla which was key in the whole process of Jasmine's return I am quite certain that it came to its frutation when Angel gave Conner a normal life. The chance to live his life over again if you will. But thats just me.
 
Faith/willowfan said:
i think that the shanshu was meant for angel- and i was thinking the other day- i reckon angel atoned for his sins when he was sent to hell by buffy because he suffered torture for hundreds of years- maybe before he could recieve the shanshu, or search for ture atonement he must suffer the same amount of pain he put loadsa people through while he was angelus whereas spike never suffered for what he'd done he just sat in a basement for a few months, like angel said. however spike did make a good point he got his soul willingly, but for the wrong reasons whereas angel had his soul forced upon him, what does everyone think?
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Angel didn't deserve it. First of all, every good deed he had performed was due to the fact that first the gypsies and later, Willow had forced a cursed soul upon him.

Even as a souled vampire, he caused a lot of crap, especially with his agreement with W&H to erase the memories of Connor from his son and his friends. That act alone really disgusted me. Then in S5, he continued - ordering Lorne to kill Lindsey MacDonald, acting as judge, jury and executioner to those employees who did not behave. Which only proved what a hypocrite he was. He punished other employees, but allowed both Gunn and Wes to get away with their misdeeds.

During the whole S5, I can honestly say that Angel deserved crap from the PTB. Nor did he really ever develop as a character. But, since he is the main character, the PTB decided to offer him the Shanshu anyway. Idiots!

So Spike getting his soul, because he wanted to be the man he thought that Buffy deserved was wrong? Why? You mean that Spike had to be completely selfless? Think of the world? Again, why?
 
LadyLavinia said:
Angel didn't deserve it. First of all, every good deed he had performed was due to the fact that first the gypsies and later, Willow had forced a cursed soul upon him.

Even as a souled vampire, he caused a lot of crap, especially with his agreement with W&H to erase the memories of Connor from his son and his friends. That act alone really disgusted me. Then in S5, he continued - ordering Lorne to kill Lindsey MacDonald, acting as judge, jury and executioner to those employees who did not behave. Which only proved what a hypocrite he was. He punished other employees, but allowed both Gunn and Wes to get away with their misdeeds.

During the whole S5, I can honestly say that Angel deserved crap from the PTB. Nor did he really ever develop as a character. But, since he is the main character, the PTB decided to offer him the Shanshu anyway. Idiots!

So Spike getting his soul, because he wanted to be the man he thought that Buffy deserved was wrong? Why? You mean that Spike had to be completely selfless? Think of the world? Again, why?
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Well we know that the PTB is the only power that will make angel human, according to the oracles, but because the oracles said it to angel and its likely that they knew who the prophecy was for and it suggests that they thought it was for angel, at least they implied it.
also angel did that to save connor and to also help wesley forget what he did, it was selfish in ways but not in other ways.
also angel has made loads of sacrifices, he deserves a break, what sacrifice apart from his death did spike make. angel went to hell, left town for buufys sake and also gave ip every ounce of happiness he had so he could protect people.

ANGEL FOR SHANSHU 4EVA
still true no matter what anyone says, idst, stirood etc.
 
so what if a soul was forced on Angel, yeh it was and so what he is paying for it isn't he..Wow Spike went to get his soul for Buffy, that's what Joss says but on the show it didnt look like that he wanted to kill Buffy. Angel has made so many sacrifices as Faith/willowfan pointed out lets not forget he gave up his son for the better life, I could make a list of what Angel has done and it would be a hell lot longer than Spike's, angel has saved the world for 8years and probably more and what Spike a few just cause he wanted to get into Buffy's pant and then he saves the world once and he suddenly deserves a shanshu more than Angel, he spent like what 3weeks in a basement whinning about his soul which he so badly wanted and yet Angel has had it for ages and he deals with it gave up many loved ones, saves the world like nearly every week, gave up his son. Spike and Angel have both been evil, yeh Angel worse than Spike but stil Spike was still evil. If anyone deserves to be human it's Angel and who knows they could both get it, Angel may deserve it more but Spike still does deserve it.
 
You guys all have valid input but your missing the biggest thing in the Spike or Angel: Shanshu?

Angel is remorsing for his sins, we've saw him for years trying to cope with all the bad deeds that he did. But Spike, with the exception of one or two instances, does not act as sorry as Angel does.

Though Angel's soul was forced upon him, hes done so much. Wow Spike saved the world once. And that was with the amulet! And getting a soul to either kill a girl or to impress her is just as bad as having it forced on you! Because Spike's whole reason for a soul was for a selfish reason that would gain him something. Angel never asked for it!

Angel is the original vamp with the soul. Though prophecys can be tricky and he signed his shanshu away, theres gotta be away around it. Plus I think the one that shanshus won't get Buffy; she needs a little darkness in her man!
 
originalslayer said:
You guys all have valid input but your missing the biggest thing in the Spike or Angel: Shanshu?

Angel is remorsing for his sins, we've saw him for years trying to cope with all the bad deeds that he did. But Spike, with the exception of one or two instances, does not act as sorry as Angel does.

Though Angel's soul was forced upon him, hes done so much. Wow Spike saved the world once. And that was with the amulet! And getting a soul to either kill a girl or to impress her is just as bad as having it forced on you! Because Spike's whole reason for a soul was for a selfish reason that would gain him something. Angel never asked for it!

Angel is the original vamp with the soul. Though prophecys can be tricky and he signed his shanshu away, theres gotta be away around it. Plus I think the one that shanshus won't get Buffy; she needs a little darkness in her man!
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Angel's remorse for his sins ring shallow, because he had a soul forced upon him. All of his remorse and good deeds are shallow and false to me, because they have all been the result of a soul forced against his will. His actions as a souled vampires aren't from the real Liam/Angelus/Angel, but from the result of a curse put upon him by gypsies. Sorry, but all the arguments in the world cannot erase this fact for me. And your argument that Spike got his soul for the "wrong reason" also rings hollow. He didn't get it for a selfish reason. He got it for Buffy. Just because he didn't do it for the world (like who gives a damn about that), does not dismiss his actions.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Angel's remorse for his sins ring shallow, because he had a soul forced upon him. All of his remorse and good deeds are shallow and false to me, because they have all been the result of a soul forced against his will. His actions as a souled vampires aren't from the real Liam/Angelus/Angel, but from the result of a curse put upon him by gypsies. Sorry, but all the arguments in the world cannot erase this fact for me. And your argument that Spike got his soul for the "wrong reason" also rings hollow. He didn't get it for a selfish reason. He got it for Buffy. Just because he didn't do it for the world (like who gives a damn about that), does not dismiss his actions.
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How is this shallow? Because he wants to feel better? Wow thats real shallow. I could see if his helping the world helped his vanity or powers but it doesn't! Now his redemption could possibly end in nothing with him signing away his shanshu! If he was shallow then he wouldn't fight if he weren't to receive the shanshu. Is it shallow giving up mortality like he did in "I Will Remember You" so that Buffy could continue fighting the good fight, just like he would. He could have been mortal and had the love of his life, BUT HE GAVE IT UP FOR THE WORLD! Spike, on the other hand, only does things that he thinks will get more attention from Buffy, unlike Angel!

How did getting a soul help Buffy? It only hindered her. The actions of his receiving a soul created more confusion in the Buffyverse. He even took innocent lives while he had a sould. Even though these actions were produced by the First, if he was had even a bit of self-control, he could have overcome them. Angel was ridiculed by the First, but did he kill innocents? No, he decided to take his life to help (even though stopped by Buffy). The reason he wanted a soul was for Buffy, name one thing in which it helped Buffy. Wow, she fell in love with him, but did that help anything? Spike was a poor replacement for Angel!

Angel is morally superior. He has done things that Spike could never achieve. He's given away so much to help the safety of the world. And how could you not think that if someone does something for the safety of the world, that its not the same, if lower, than doing something for some girl.

Yeah, Spike as an unsouled vampire was alot better than an unsouled Angelus. But when it comes to the two souled vamps, Angel is the winner.
 
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