Shanshu for angel or spike? what do u think?

[Cordelia Chase*]

Saving the world doesnt matter. Spike didnt get a soul to get in Buffys pants. He already did way before! He got a soul of free will. Angel was forced to get a soul. Spike was Angelus's lackee following things that he did. That is the reason for Spikes bad past. Anyway, angel didnt save the world for eight years. Saving the world is when it is about to end. He did it once, and that was S5. In others he protected it.
Next, he didnt save the world in s2 of Buffy if anyone tries to use this against me. Buffy killed him. He didnt know he had to die because when he was ensouled he forgot everything that happened. Spike saved the worldonce. Closing the Helleye. Maybe twice if you count him helping Buffy fight those demons after the word of valos. Or it could be like the Angelus thing. Also you cant use the mayor, cause if Angel helped save it by fighting vamps them everyone else at Sunnydale High has equal credit as well. So Spike and Angel are 1-to-1 and I'm rooting for Spike.

 

[Kuznya]

Nothing like a post like this just to remind you how rabid fans can be over a TV show that isnt real. But since we are "discussing" who "deserves" a reward lets analyze this.

First of all lets look at the reward as something tangable like say a job. If 2 people who were both qualified for the job came to me one who is more qualified but is there because someone told him to *angel's soul forced on him* vs some whos a little less qualified but there of his own free will *spike got his soul" I would be more willing to give the job to the less qualified who was there because they wanted to be.

Dont get your panties in a bunch just yet im not done.

Now lets discuss these qualifications. By my count both Spike and Angel have actually saved the world once each.

Buffy season 1 while Angel helped all he did was kill normal vampires which he did normally anyway while Buffy closed the hell mouth. Season 2 Angelis was actually the reason that Buffy had to save the world again. Season 3 again angel helped but in a minor role of killing underlings while buffy killed the mayor. Angel season 1 he killed a bad guy to help his friend. No world saving occured. Season 2 while the "saved" a world it was actually cordy, wes and Gunn who did most of the work. Season 3 Angel managed to let his own son lock him in a box and dump him at the bottom of the ocean. Still no world saving. Now enter season 4 where we actually get to a world saving situation. He battled the name keeper and shattered most of Jasmines powers thus saving the world from being mindless slaves to her but still it took conner to actually kill her since she was handing angel's little butt to him. So he gets half points for this save. Season 5 now in the end after much chaos he and the gang manage to destroy the ring that is slowly destroying the world but if you really look at it angel fight hamilton who isnt part of the circle just a messanger while the rest of the gang actually do the world saving. He gets half points again for coming up with the plan and implimenting it though. --- Edit: A correction Angel did poison sabasis as well and killed him but thats not exactly a noble way to do it. He still gets half a point.---

Now Spike qualifications. Spike helped buffy with the plan to stop angel in season 2 *evil though his intentions were*. Season 4 he helps again but only to save his own skin. Season 5 he falls in love with buffy so helps out simply to help her *though he does some pretty amazing good things considering hes evil*. Season 6 even by the begining of this he was making a very asertive effort to be good even before buffy came back. Yes because of a promise he made to her but for a souless beast this is a huge deal. In the end he seeks out his soul, for buffy yes, but still he wanted his soul. He cant "lose it" like angel. Season 7 comes along and in the end HE saves the world. Buffy and the slayerettes would of lost if it not been for the talisman. Yes spike didnt do the work but he was willing to wear the talisman knowing full well it could kill him since they knew nothing about it and sacraficed himself WILLINGLY to save the world. 1 whole point to spike.

YAY there tied as far as qualifictions go but im not done yet.

Now lets discuss whos "done" more. What did angel first do when he got his soul. After it was forced upon him he moped for a bit then he tried to return to darla. He tried to be a bad guy again even feed on humans *yes thieves and brigands the scum of society* because he WANTED his old evil life back. Theres a true champion for ya. Now we enter his 100 years of self loathing. We cant count any good deeds he did during this point because no matter what you want to think he was a scummy guy. The 2 examples of we have of what he was like during this time are pretty much what we can expect of him. Im speaking of the hotel where he tried to do the right thing but in the end said Screw them and let the demon have his way with them. Then theres the sub thing in which he was forced under threat of death to help. These are not good deeds boys and girls and are pretty much his status que in this phase of his life.

Now we get to were he finally decides he needs to fight for good and do the right thing. But wait whats this why did he make this choice? Can anyone guess? Come on it starts with a B and ends with a Y. Ok if you really give up it was BUFFY. Gee that sounds familiar but we havent covered that in its entirity yet. So after 100 years of a soul in which he tried to be a bad guy then tried to ignore the rest of the world existed he decides to fight the good fight for a girl hes only seen from across the street. Now thats a good guy let me tell you. So hes career as a good guy starts here some 6 years before Spikes. Hes saves young women / men and all those who need saving. Kuddos to him.

Now Spike starts off as evil comes to sunnydale still evil and remains evil until season 4 he gets a chip implanted that prevents him from hurting humans. He starts fighting the good fight not for the good but because he can injury demons and he loves the thrill of the fight. Always has always will. Season 5 comes along and he starts fighting the good fight because hes in love with the good fight that is Buffy. Still he is evil. Season 6 sees the repeat of season 5 in his reasonings but enter thend of the season were he decides to seek out his soul so that he can "give buffy what she deserves". Now Spikes recovery period is rather fast 3 or so months in a basement in which he is constantly hounded and manipulated by the first turning into a mindless vampire making machine when it sings the right song. Spike is remorseful of his past and as such is a big pansy for the first half of the season until buffy reminds him of what he was and what she needs him to be, Spike. Now he fights the good fight because he knows in his soul its the right thing to do. In the end he sacrafices his life to save the world *and of course buffy*.

So now we get back to whos more deserving. Obviously Angel has done more because he had 6 years of a head start on Spike. Thats no small potatoes when you factor in its only been 8 years total. But if you look at good done in the total time they have had souls as a %. Spike beats angel hands down. What will the total look like in 100 years? When there both on a more "equal" footing time wise? Even if we throw away the whole 100 years that angel pissed away at that point will the differences be that significant?

So now that ive tried to throw logic in your face to make you see some sort of reason *though I admit I think I lost focus at the end you will have to forgive me im writing this between tasks at work* Ill give you my opinion about who the prophecy is speaking *this is so very different then who deserves it*. I think its talking about angel and ill tell you why.

In the first season when he finds the scrolls it talks about how prophecy's tend to "call" to those who they are about. Angel had no reason to grab the scroll but he was drawn to it. This isnt to say that Spike wouldnt be if he came across it but we dont know that one way or another as "solid" fact. The scrolls were used in summoning Darla back from the dead. She is key and instrumental in the return of jasmine and as such this is a strong indication that this is the Apocalypse that the scrolls speak of and everything that happens in the next 3 years seem to directly corrilate with the scroll almost line for line. This is strong evidence that Angel was the intended "vampire with a soul" in the scroll and that by defeating Jasmine he fullfilled that part of the obligation. Now the part alot seem to forget is that after saveing the world there are still many trials and enemies he has to defeat to earn the reward. The apocalypse thing was just kinda like and indicator of who it is supposed to mean.

This is my minor novel on the subject. Feel free to pick it apart all you want. But remember A) its just a TV show and everything about it is Josh's world and only he knows for sure and B) none of the 2 are saints. They have all done some serious good but both have done some serious bad even with their souls. Lay off each other folks its not worth fighting about.

---Minor update about the end of the 5th season before someone else corrected me---

 

[SlayerThe]

Wow, Kuznya. That has to be the best explanation/view point I've heard so far.

You are very right about Spike having done more good in the first years that they've both had their souls. But I've always been bothered about Spike not being as remorseful as Angel has been. So what the guy moped around, heck lots of people if they were turned into a completely different person.

I don't see why everyone continues to rant on about the talisman! Ohh big deal, he wore it and it defeated the Ubervamps! The only thing he did was actually wear it, nothing was done on his part to intentionally save the world. He was down there just to fight ubervamps just like Buffy, Faith and the newly awakened potentials. He didn't even know that it would save the world from the ubervamps so you don't entirely know that he would have purposefully let it destroy him for the safety of the entire world. He probaly would have, but hes been immortal for years and even though he puts on a badass 'tude, noone knows.

Now for the subject of Buffy. Whats this girl got that makes every vampire with a soul want to be "helpful"? Really, c'mon now.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

This mat sound crazy but does antone think that the Shanshu prophecy was really talking about Darla?
I mean it said it draws people to it and everyone thinks that because Angel was, he is about the prophecy. But what about Darla. She syred Angel which makes them connected right?.......Since she wasnt there, he found it. And the vamp with a soul thing. Darla could pass. I mean when she got pregnant with Connor, he had a soul right?..........That would make it hers also since its her child and they were connected. And the soul vamp playing a role in the Apocolypse, well if she wouldnt have gotten pregnant then none of this would of happened. Vamps cant produce children so Connor had to be planted in her..............so maybe Darla could pass.......Just a thought. When we have threads like this it makes me think................

 

[Faith/willowfan]

Angel for shanshu.
1. the only reason spike started doing good straight away is because he knew he was getting a soul and he had been sort of good for years so it wasn't really a big deal for him, well not as much as it was for Angel. Spikes soul was more formal.
2. spike had someone to help him, he had buffy, angel was thrust into the deep end without warning- he had no guide until whistler, how was he supposed to deal with it.
3. angel did ood on his own- he went patrolling on his own and eventually left sunnydale to fight evil on his own.
in series 7 spike nly patrolled when he was with buffy, the rest of the time he just got up, went out and got drunk- what a champion, eh?
4. if you think about it if the hellmouth would have been opened in series 7 then the world would have ended- which means spike stopped the apocalypse so realy when he came back wouldn't he have been made human?
5. angel was not firstly in love with buffy, he saw her and felt sympathetic he wanted to help her, spike didnt really want to help her he just wanted to f*** her.

 

[Ayumi]

I really think the Shanshu prophecy, without a doubt, is for Angel. Why? Look at him, he saved the world many times. Give up Conner for he can have a better life then staying with Angel. He fights for the world, not because he has to. It is because he can. Helping people out is what he does.

Spike on the other hand. The first time we see him help out Buffy was because he was mad about Dru and Angelus's relationship with eachother. Flash forward to season 4, he helped out because of the chip. Then season five hits... falls in love with Buffy. Enough said. Flash forward, again. He went off to get his soul. Not because he wanted to become a better man. The only reason was he wanted to be on Buffy's good side. Then we have chosen. Spike didn't save the world. He just had on a stupid amulet that he didn't get. Come on, he doesn't deserve to Shanshu.

I know they are not gods. The morally great, but Spike's reasons was completely selfish.

 

[Kuznya]

Then we have chosen. Spike didn't save the world. He just had on a stupid amulet that he didn't get.

The irony of this statement is if Buffy had let Angel do it as he had planed all you angel lovers would be praising his feet as the great hero. All because he put on a talisman that he didnt get it was given to him (as part of his agreement to "sell his soul" to the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart no less). Spike wore the amulet knowing that it had great power and that there was some very strong possiblity of negative side effects. Great power rarely comes without great sacrafice its a reaccuring theme through out Buff and Angel. Stop ignoreing things you dont want to acknowledge. Even once the amulet started to do its thing and spike knew he was dieing he had no regrets nor any desire to stop. He faced his impending sacrafice bravely and went out a hero.

This mat sound crazy but does antone think that the Shanshu prophecy was really talking about Darla?
I mean it said it draws people to it and everyone thinks that because Angel was, he is about the prophecy. But what about Darla. She syred Angel which makes them connected right?.......Since she wasnt there, he found it. And the vamp with a soul thing. Darla could pass. I mean when she got pregnant with Connor, he had a soul right?..........That would make it hers also since its her child and they were connected. And the soul vamp playing a role in the Apocolypse, well if she wouldnt have gotten pregnant then none of this would of happened. Vamps cant produce children so Connor had to be planted in her..............so maybe Darla could pass.......Just a thought. When we have threads like this it makes me think................

Darla never had a soul as a vampire. She "shared" her sons soul the way that alot of mothers describe a bond or connection with the children in there womb but at no point did she have her soul. As such she was never a vampire with a soul so the prophecy could not apply to her anymore then it would mean Angelous *evil not good*.

1. the only reason spike started doing good straight away is because he knew he was getting a soul and he had been sort of good for years so it wasn't really a big deal for him, well not as much as it was for Angel. Spikes soul was more formal.

Spike didnt start doing good right away. In fact it took buffy *same as angel* to get him to pull his head out of his a** before he put any effort into doing good.

2. spike had someone to help him, he had buffy, angel was thrust into the deep end without warning- he had no guide until whistler, how was he supposed to deal with it.

A fair point but it still doesnt explain why it took him 100 years to come to terms with what he was. He simply did not have a strong enough will to even try until he was given a reason to. Sounds alot like spike *again*.

3. angel did ood on his own- he went patrolling on his own and eventually left sunnydale to fight evil on his own.
in series 7 spike nly patrolled when he was with buffy, the rest of the time he just got up, went out and got drunk- what a champion, eh?

When? Seriously show me when during the first season it gave any idication he did any hunting on his own. In fact it more points the direction that he did everything he could to avoid conflicts with vampires and just acted as an informant and let buffy do the actual work. I say season one because we will call this Year one of angel with a soul doing good *since spike only had one year before going to LA*.

4. if you think about it if the hellmouth would have been opened in series 7 then the world would have ended- which means spike stopped the apocalypse so realy when he came back wouldn't he have been made human?

So how much of my post did you skip anyway? If you had read it all you would of read that part were I mentioned that the Shanshu states that the vampire with a soul will play a pivital role in an apocalypse AND THEN will have to defeat many enemys and face many trials before getting his soul. --- Edit Soul should be reward ---

5. angel was not firstly in love with buffy, he saw her and felt sympathetic he wanted to help her, spike didnt really want to help her he just wanted to f*** her.

This is a subjective thought. Angel saw her as a great tragic hero. He idolized her from the moment he saw her and wished to do what he could to make her life easier. This is a form of love in its own right even if its not a baby I wanna hump hump all night long love.

And why does everyone keep saying spike got his soul so buffy would sleep with him? What just because angel the omnipotent says so? Spike clearly states why he got his soul at the end of season 6. He wanted to give buffy what she deserved. He loved her and knew that in order for there to ever be anything between them he had to be a better man. Yes a man which he could not be as a souless demon. He wanted his soul so that she could love him and he could truely say he loved her. At no point in the 7th season does he make any attempt to bed her so if that was his intention he failed miserably.

But I've always been bothered about Spike not being as remorseful as Angel has been.

Thats easy enough to understand. When angel got his soul back he was liam. The liam that had died when darla bite him. Then to be this "innocent" person and being shown all this evil that you had done over the last 100 or so years how could you not be remorseful?

Spike however when he got his soul back was still spike only he know had a soul and conscience to make him accountable for his actions. Part of his insanity in the basement was because of his coming to terms with it but spike isnt a thinker. Hes a do'er and as such once he has done something he tends to forget about it. Like he says in damaged, he never really gave what he was doing much thought. That it had any lasting effects because he was only there for the moment. This is why until that point *in damaged* he had little remorse.

--- Minor reward error ---

 

[SlayerThe]

Good points Kuznya.

Although I don't agree with your statement on how Angel didn't have strong enough will or the quote on how Spike wanted to give Buffy what she deserved.

1. If Angel didn't have enough will to get over his baggage then how could he have endured the hell dimension for so long? Even though Buffy inspired some of this will, he was born with a fair amount of will, Buffy just brought it out. You have to realize that he was transformed from the cruelest of creatures to a soul-having vampire. Everything he did, he felt, but now he felt bad for them. He did far more than Spike did. Thus, Angel feeling worse. Maybe Spike does feel bad, but it doesn't seem like it as much as Angel. Maybe he handles his emotions better? But Angel had to get over more stuff than Spike.

2. I would say there is a 55 percent chance that Spike wanted to be made into the vampire he was Pre-Sunnydale. Take a look at this quote:

Demon: You have endured the required trials.
Spike: Bloody right I have. So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves.
Demon: Very well. We will return your soul.

It sounds like Spike wants to be made human so he can give Buffy a soulmate, someone to love. But when Spike was human, he didn't consider him self loveable. He was a loser, lacking love *ALLITERATION*. But it would make sense that he would want to be human or have his soul so he could truely be in love.

But before this trip, he tried to rape Buffy. Thats obvious. But what was his motive behind this. Love? No because instead he would have wanted just to be near her. He wanted the unattainable. He killed 2 slayers and now theres a Slayer stronger than any hes faced before, and since he can't kill her, I guess he supposes he should hump her. Spikes love is nothing but infatuation (until the end of Season 7, then I think thats love). A vampire would want only whats good for them, they worked to suit their needs only. Thats what Spike was doing when he tried to force Buffy to have sex. Thats not love, thats a horny vampire.

Then you got the whole question, why would he give Spike a soul? Go back to Season 2, Angel says "You got to love her to kill her". The two times when Buffy died, she did this to protect the ones she loved. Even though Spike thought he loved her, he couldn't because he was an unsouled vampire and his true instinct would be to try to defeat the Slayer.

 

[Kuznya]

If Angel didn't have enough will to get over his baggage then how could he have endured the hell dimension for so long?

I wouldnt exactly call Angel surviving "hell" as having endured it out of pure will. Its not like he came back all happy go lucky friendly as if nothing was wrong. He came back a blubbering dangerous lunatic who only managed to recover because he had buffy to help him come out of it. A focus and purpose worth fighting for if you will. While he might of recovered on his own I highly doubt it. Its far more likely he would of gotten himself killed if she had not found him first.

You have to realize that he was transformed from the cruelest of creatures to a soul-having vampire. Everything he did, he felt, but now he felt bad for them.

I already addressed this at the end of my last post my point is though if he had any will of his own he would of made efforts to atone for it long before some attractive tart with slayer issues entered his life. He simply did not have the will to pull himself out of his self pity and do something about what he "was".

He did far more than Spike did.

Prove it. No I mean seriously were does it say Angelus did more the Spike? Now I will give you this, what Angelus did was far worse then what spike did but if you really get down to it. Angelus was a planer prone to elaberate schemes vs here I am heres your corpse. By these very tactics alone I would say spike did far more things the angel ever did his just dont becomes stories of legend because they are simply the hack, slash, your dead events.

Now heres a question I want answered because I cant come up with a good answer to it. Why exactly is Angel accountable for the actions of Angelus? It is perfectly clear that the two of them are very different people. During the second season of buffy when she is talking to her old friend who wants to become a vampire rather then die of a brain tumor or whatever it was. Im parapharsing but "When it happens your dead, your soul goes where souls go and a demon sets up shop in your body". If this is the case then when Liam died and Angelus took over liam is not reponsible for his actions. Yet everyone keeps saying that Angel/Liam did it. Angel was on a freaking holiday in heaven or where ever his soul would go he gets forced back into his old body that had been possessed and now hes comdemn to pay for the crimes of the demon? Please that is so rediculous and if there was any kind of justice in the metaphysical would he would only be judged by his actions as liam and Angel.

--- need to pick and stick with one way to Spell evil angels name 🙂 ---

 

[Hitome]

Becoming a vampire removes the soul, the self, it removes the morality but not the desire.

This is very interesting because arguing about what a soulless vampire did or did not do is pointless. Angelus isn't Liam, and Spike (souless) isn't William. But Angel and Spike don't understand this fact. Their souls were ripped out of heaven (or possibly hell in Liam's case🙂-if drunken womanizers go to hell) and forced into a shell of memories inhabited by a demon.

The vampires with souls don't need to atone they need to fight daily against the vampire within them. In my opinion Spike has done a better job. It is indicative a how good a man William was that his souless shell is still a loving (if twisted) creature who is capable of profound attachment to human beings and other demons as well as fellow vampires. Angelus, however, is not so nice. That's why we love him.

If Angelus is created by mingling Angel's desires with the needs and wishes of a vampire. Angel is a very scarry man, scarrier than Wesley even. Most vampires don't behave like Angelus. They are not sadistic killers with a definite victim profile. Angel without morality and a little prompting is a psyco serial killer driven by lust. Spike kills to eat and for pleasure but he doesn't really like hurting people emotionally.

Even though the vampire with a soul is not a monster anymore and is instead a human trapped in the body of a vampire, forced to remember the evil actions of this monster as his (or someday maybe her) own, the previous memories of what the vampire did profoundly shape his (or her) identity. Note that Spike stays "Spike" and doesn't start acting like William again. In other words he accepts some of the things the vampire did as his own. I think he has to do so. Since memory is an odd thing both Angel and Spike feel guilt for things they never did.

What scares me about Angel is that he seems to have little qualms about hurting people to enforce his will even after gaining a soul. Let's talk about the mind rape that "saved" Connor. What Angel did was wrong. Connor may be well adjusted now, but Angel sacrificed his friends' memories and destroyed Connor's integrity as a person to create a new Connor that was to his liking. Angel did the exact same type thing that Jasmine did. He created an illusion that brought happiness to his son at the expense of Connor's free will. Maybe Connor wished that Jasmine's illusions would work on him, but Angel creating a similiar illusion to give him "happiness" was wrong. Unless someone erases the false memores Connor will never be whole again. Angel thinking he knew best violated his friends and his own son.

Angel thinking he knew best also abandoned Buffy, ending their relationship because it wasn't "good for her." If he wanted Buffy to have a normal life he should have known that isn't possible. Up to the end of Buffy every slayer dies sooner rather than later so that a new slayer can be called. Angel knew Buffy probably wouldn't make it past 30 and certainly wouldn't live a full normal life, yet he still left her to fight and die and live her life without him. Either he is very stupid and didn't understand what being a slayer means or... (I really can't think of another possiblity--help please).

I would like to think that goodness isn't measured in the amount of times a person saves the world or how long a person has been fighting against evil. I would like to think that goodness is measured in how much a person cares for others and how much this person is willing to risk personal harm to save even the undeserving. Spike's actions in damage were indicative of goodness. He recognised that the slayer was a monster, yet he still felt pity for her and didn't hate her despite what she did to him. I don't know if Spike "deserves" the prophecy, but I do know that Angel does not. This doesn't matter however since in the world of Angel nothing is fair and good people meet horrible fates (think Cordy).

 

[Chosen 1]

I think it should be about Spike (because I prefer him to Angel), but I think it is about Angel because he has done more to deserve it than Spike.

 

[Big Bad]

- ::devil:: Big Bad ::devil:: here. Interesting topic. Here's my take on the matter as well as something else I saw that made me want to throw in my 2-cents.

- To me I think that the Shanshu was and still is meant for Angel. As much as I would have like for it to have been for Spike, the prophecy itself just seems to be made for Angel. For example let's look at the instances and events the scroll of Aberjian has either foretold or been used for.

(1) Mentions the blind children Angel saved as playing an important role in"¦well something? (season 1: Blind Date)
(2) Using the words of Anatole located in the scroll to remove the mark that Voca left on Cordelia. (season 1: To Shanshu in LA)
(3) Using a chant from the scroll to perform a ritual to raise Darla and make her human. (season 1: To Shanshu in LA)
(4) Mentions that the beast of Amalfi will arise in 2003 in Reseda. (season 1: To Shanshu in LA)
(5) Mentions that the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. (season 1: To Shanshu in LA)
(6) Supposedly mentions that which ever souled-vampire drinks from the cup of Perpetual Torment is the central figure for the prophecy

Now since Sirk was lying and possibly working with Lindsey, we can discount number six. But looking back at the other examples, numbers 1 thru 3 and number 5 have something to do with someone who Angel has had direct contact with or possibly involving Angel himself. Spike on the other so far has only had two possible references in the scroll of Aberjian that might have been about him"¦.and it was number 5 and number 6. And as I stated before we really can't use number 6 since it was told by Sirk and might not have been true. So in terms of being possibly mentioned in the scroll or playing some part in something mentioned in it "Spike 1 "“ Angel 4".

- Another reason for Angel being worthy of Shanshu prophecy has to do with something about the phrase "the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu". Looking back on that episode, Wesley did elaborate a lil bit more on the part about the ensouled vampire fulfilling his destiny. The following dialogue from episode "To Shanshu in LA" I got from a website.

Wesley: "Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It's his reward."
Cordy: "Wow. Angel a human."
Angel: "That'll be nice."
Cordy: "Wait. What's that thing about him having to fulfill his destiny first?"
Wesley: "Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed."

The way I see it, Wes' explanation of the ensouled vampire's destiny seemed to mirror Angel's present lifestyle versus Spike's lifestyle after getting a soul. Angel and his gang fought demons, stopped evil forces plots to control or destroy the world, etc. Now not to say that Spike didn't do these things with Buffy after he got his soul back, the difference between them is that in his group Angel was the one who seemed not only in charge, but more so the main player of the group. Spike on the other like many of the potentials and Scoobies considered Buffy in charge or the general per say, and they all were her followers/soldiers. To me Wes's explanation of the vampire's destiny seemed like he himself would be facing these challenges"¦.not helping someone else face them.

- Also another reason why I feel the prophecy is more for Angel than Spike is that the Shanshu is first mentioned at the end of Angel-Season 1 which ended the same time as Buffy-Season 4. Spike didn't even get his soul til the end of season 6. So IMO I don't think originally Spike was ever meant to receive the Shanshu. But seeing as how he did technically fit the profile of a vampire with a soul after season 6, who's to say that maybe Joss didn't at least once or twice think about making Spike the one who will Shanshu????????? Well I guess we'll never really know, but if you ask me I think it should be Angel.

- Ok I noticed that after awhile the question came up as to why should Angel and/or Spike be blamed for their actions when they didn't have a soul. Hitome said

The vampires with souls don't need to atone they need to fight daily against the vampire within them.

Even though I disagree with Hitome's statement, cause I think that they should atone, I do agree that Spike and Angel have to fight off their inner demons and urgues every day. But I tend to look at the question of why should Angel/Liam and/or William/Spike atone for the crimes of their demon counter-parts like the question "Why do people who've killed other people while under the influence of drugs/alcohol feel bad?". It all comes down to the same thing; they still feel responsible for their actions even though they might not have been under sound mind/judgement. Even though people while under the influence of drugs/alcohol were technically under the influence of a substance and were acting out of character, it's still their fault that whatever happened while in their altered state of awareness happened. After all, in most cases no one forced them to take the drink/drugs in the first place. And even though they might not have foreseen the dire consequences of their actions, on some level they knew that something bad could happen. I mean c'mon, most of us have seen enough of those M.A.D.D's commercials to know that if you drink and decide to drive you could end up hurting someone. And IMO, William and Liam are no different than a person who drinks too much and decides to go driving.

- Now while me comparing William and Liam actions to a drunk driver in this day and age might be a lil far-fetched, allow me to explain it a little further. Most of us know how William and Liam were sired (Liam by Darla outside of a bar "“and- William by Dru in an alley). Now although at the time of their siring both William and Liam had no idea that vampires really existed, or even the mayhem that they would cause in the next 100+ years, both William and Liam willingly allowed themselves to be sired. Most cases like Harmony for example were people who were probably forced into becoming a vampire after being fed on, William and Liam on the other hand were given a choice. Even though during their siring they realized that Dru/Darla wasn't normal or human, they still allowed themselves to be changed into something more than what they were, and didn't give a thought to the repercussions that might have come from their impulsive decision. So it's easy to see why Spike/Angel might feel a little bit guilty for their demon counterpart's actions. In a way, if they had resisted or changed their minds at the last moment, maybe all their past victims might not have died. It's kinda like Gunn's guilt after realizing that he was inadvertently responsibly for Illyria's sarcophagus getting to Wolf Ram & Hart and killing Fred. Sure you could say that he didn't know that it was going to happen"¦.but that still doesn't change the fact that it did. In some small way(or big if you really want to be technical since they probably never would have gotten the sarcophagus out of customs if it hadn't been for Gunn) he was responsible for her death. The same thing could be said for William/Spike and Liam/Angel, thus explaining why they and others might possibly feel that they should share in the blame and guilt for their demon counterpart's deeds.

- Anyway that's my 2-cents on those matters. Hopefully my thoughts and opinions made some sense and didn't give anyone a migraine, trying to figure out what the heck I was trying to say.

 

[Hitome]

Big Bad, I think you made a very good point about how the prophecy refers to Angel. I have to disagree with your analogy equating soulessness to drunkeness.

- . But I tend to look at the question of why should Angel/Liam and/or William/Spike atone for the crimes of their demon counter-parts like the question "Why do people who've killed other people while under the influence of drugs/alcohol feel bad?".

A drunk person is still a person. In the Whedonverse drunk people have souls, vampires don't and this is a big deal because the soul is the essence of the self. Buffy's mind and body didn't go to heaven after she died, and yet she was in heaven.

I have a hypothetical situation for you. Suppose after Buffy died at the end of S5 and was in heaven that someone reserected her body without bring back its soul. Would Buffy's soul that is now in heaven be responsible for the actions of her body? That's basically what you are arguing about vampires.

Angel and Spike didn't fight being sired. They didn't know about vampires or what was happening to them. Drucilla also has mind control abilities so I am sure she could ensure that William didn't struggle as she murdered him. Willam and Liam both died before they became vampires. Their souls had left before the vampire became aware. Blaiming either of them for what happened is like blaiming a date rape victim because she was stupid enough to go into a room alone with her date.

Blaiming someone for an action that he or she had no intention to commit is crazy to me. Neither William nor Liam wanted to die in my opinion, and blaiming them for not fighting against being vamped is counter productive and weird. Walking into an alley with a strange woman even allowing her to murder you by not putting up a good enough fight hardly seems like a crime to me, and certainly is not one worth years of atonement .

 

[Big Bad]

I have a hypothetical situation for you. Suppose after Buffy died at the end of S5 and was in heaven that someone reserected her body without bring back its soul. Would Buffy's soul that is now in heaven be responsible for the actions of her body? That's basically what you are arguing about vampires.

Hmmm-interesting situation Hitome. And looking at your hypothethical situation, I can see that in my previous arguement, it has some of the flaws that I didn't consider. In my defense there's one thing that I will point out. Remember that the gypsies cursed Angelus with a soul, a soul that is meant to torture him for all the sins and lives he's taken. So in Angel's case even though he shouldn't really feel guilty (when looking at your hypothethical situation), he will cause that's how the soul-curse is supposed to work for Angel.

Anyway thats my other two-cents on the matter, and thanks for an interesting read Hitome.

 

[Jacklyn]

The above might also be a good explanation as to why Angel suffered more after having his soul restored than Spike did.

 

[Hitome]

Remember that the gypsies cursed Angelus with a soul, a soul that is meant to torture him for all the sins and lives he's taken. So in Angel's case even though he shouldn't really feel guilty (when looking at your hypothethical situation), he will cause that's how the soul-curse is supposed to work for Angel.

Great point, and strangely funny somehow.

 

[Kuznya]

There is no doubt that Angel feels responcible for the actions of Angelus. Since he is inhabiting the same body he has the same memories for the perspective of him commiting them. In your argument you can even go so far as to say the vampire is just the extension of it host exibiting the hosts darkest desires. So in a way the vampire is just the worst possible version of what the person could of become if he made different choices.

Even with that it doesnt explain how the soul that was not a participant in the situations can be held accountable for the actions of the demon that was in this world in his place. At least in the case of angel who is obviously 2 different entities.

Now spike I could see being a different matter from your argument. In his case he asked for his soul back and rather then becoming a "new man" it would seem that the part of him that is Spike and the part that is William *the soul* have sort of merged to become a new entity. The soul in makeing this choice is in essence now responcible for the actions of the demon that he now choses to coexist with. Anyway this whole conversations is all for not since its Joss's world and he makes all the rules 🙂

 

[Dark Knight]

I always thought that Spike wasn't asking for his soul back, he was intending to be w badass vamp they way he used to be, and whoever re-ensouled him chose to interpret his request differently.

 

[Kuznya]

This is what was implied at the end of the 6th season but no he specifically states *in the 7th season and in angel season 5* that he went to get his soul. What could be up for debate is why he wanted it.

Edit= stuff between the *'

 

[eset]

This mat sound crazy but does antone think that the Shanshu prophecy was really talking about Darla?

Personally im of the opinion that the prophecy has already been fullfilled for Angel through his son Conner.

These are both good points, but I have another one: what if the 'vampire with a soul' has yet to be sired? Or we simply haven't met him/her yet? Angel being drawn to the scroll could mean it was meant for anyone in his line--since they seem to be connected--including Darla, Angel, Spike, or ANYONE. Also--has anyone forgotten about the now infamous "the father shall kill the son" prophesy? prophesies can be incomplete, misleading (Buffy will die, S1), or just plain wrong.

Personally, though, I'm inclined to believe the prophesy is still flexible, that this current apocalypse might not even be the one mentioned in the prophesy, and that Joss will never tell us (if he even decided) and let us all argue about this until we're blue in the face--or a real apocalypse comes and effectively silences all chatter, on;ine and otherwise.