Shanshu for angel or spike? what do u think?

Oooh! Oooh! Oooh!

Okay, I love this topic -- lol.

IMO:

The shanshu was always meant for Angel. [Ha, I can see myself causing an argument already, LOL].

The fact of the matter in my eyes is:

Even before Angel went and was hero guy, he was saving people. Let's not forget the flash-back of Angel telling Darla noone was in the alley, and how he saved the baby she was trying to get him to kill.

Angel saw Buffy, and knew he had to change. He knew he wanted to help her. He knew he wanted to "save the world" and instead of moping around being a loser, he did exactly what he knew he had to, he ran off to help Buffy.

Angel was able to put his past behind him, make friends and fall in love with Buffy (which I know, Spike *did* do).

Angelus. Eeep, eeep, eep. Not his shining moments as the hero, but when he got back from being in hell, he picked himself up. He helped himself, and he went straight back to being a hero -- and hello, he was in hell for god sakes. That shows MUCH force.

He left Buffy because he knew he had to, and went and started to save people in L.A. Big restrain here -- just like he gave back his mortality for her.

Season Two of Angel wasn't exactly his shining moments as a hero, but no matter what Angel saved people -- and he made it his mission to destroy Wolfram and Hart becaus he knew how horrible and sick they were. He left his friends 'cause he knew they were going to get hurt -- and he gave up all he had in L.A. to save people, big hero skills.

He went back to his friends after Darla was over, didn't take over being the leader and was there for Cordelia when she was suffering through visions. He raised a kid he had with Darla for god sakes, when he could've killed him for thinking he was evil or whatever.

In Season Four, he was willing to fight against his son, and the woman he loved to save them, he gave up his soul to save the world when he knew the risks. Plus, he gave up frickin world peace to save everyone!

Season Five, this was the season where he had to loose alot of people, and he did it all, really to save absouletely everyone.

He signed away his Shanshu to save everyone's lives.

He went to a battle where he knew he was going to die to save the world. (Yeah, I know, Spike did it too, lol).

So even though he signed away his Shanshu, in my eyes, Angel always should've won it. I love Spike, I truely do, and I hope I don't offend anyone by this, but Angel was saving people WAY before, granted Spike got over the brooding thing when Angel never could -- but still. . .

And! I saw a few comments about Spike going to get his soul to be the man Buffy desirved. Waaaait, if I recall correctly, he went off hoping to kill her! He wanted to get the chip out of his head to give her what she desirved IE: Death. Nooot to be love-y dove-y with her. Right? Or am I SO remembering wrong? LOL.
 
I'm pretty sure most of my points or opinions have already been said, but... whatever :dork: ...

I think Spike should be the one that they're talking about in the Shanshu Prophecy because I personally believe that Spike fought and was severely wonded trying to get his soul like a true warrior. He wanted the ability to love, to show her what he could be and what he truly is, or at least once was. Some belive that he was trying to become the Spike he was when he killed those two Slayers, and was ultimately tricked by that Shadow soul-granting demon. I think he knew what he wanted when he had left Sunnydale for Africa. However, Angelus got his soul back only after he took the innocent life of a young girl around Buffy's age when he had first saw her. It was a curse forced on him, I know some people don't like that word, but still, it IS true.

I agree with most people though that have said it was about Angel, even though it should've been Spike. There was many things mentioned above that I agree with, but something that sort of struck me as odd, was that Angel was such a big deal to Wolfram and Hart. They kept tabs on him for who knows how long before Angel's first episode, and hell of a lot on screen. They always mentioned how important Angel was, and had a strict policy on not killing him. Why would they had wasted all those things on him and give him an office because of his "dark side" if they didn't think he was as powerful as you need to be talked about in a prophecy. And I don't really remember them having much on Spike besides the regular archival stats like Age, DOB, and Sire., and they didn't care about Spike, so that's why Angel is probably the one to turn human.
 
okay... just to throw a wrench into the conversation what if it was for DARLA? lol she was a vampire then came back as a human and then a vampire and then a vampire with a soul (Connor) she gave birth to connor who was a major player therefore the Shanshu Prophecy had it backwords. Vampire/Human/Vampir/Souled Vampire/death/player okay confuse much? anyway I don't know I was just thinking she could be the one. Anyway, it could be Angel or Spike too... Angel signed it away so if it ISN'T Darla (just another theory not like I am married to it) It sorta has to be Spike now doesn't it?
 
The Shanshu Prophecy had already been fulfilled and Angel was the one. When Angel was made human so that he and Darla could conceive Conner the Prophecy was honored. No where have I heard how long the prophecy would last, so therefor it rang true for Angel. I also believe that the remainder of the prophecy was passed to Conner, he has all of the strengths but none of the weakness of the vampire. Angel signing away his rights to the prophecy was just a formality, something the Circle didnt think of that was already done by the birth of Conner. Conner is the Shanshu Prophecy!!
 
SlayersDestiny said:
When Angel was made human so that he and Darla could conceive Conner the Prophecy was honored.
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They were BOTH vampires at the time, I am pretty sure (explan if I am just nuts here). Even if he was human... she wasn't so still it wouldn't have happened.
 
Perhaps I may be mistaken, but I am rather sure that Conner was conceived while he was human and I think before she was turned again, therefor I will still stand behind my concept that Conner is the Shanshu Prophecy fulfilled. If Angel and Darla were "undead" how would they be able to conceive a child (all of their reproductive properties would be barren) ? If I am wrong I apologize.
 
I always thought Connor was able to be conceived because of that trial thing Angel went through to save Darla's life. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
At frist I thoguth that it might be for Angel, but then again he signed it away. But then he could get it even though he signed it away, just as a reward from the PTB... But then again it could be for Spike, considering he has came along away from where he once was. Or maybe it might be for both of them, wouldn't that bea interesting twist?
 
SlayersDestiny said:
Perhaps I may be mistaken, but I am rather sure that Conner was conceived while he was human and I think before she was turned again, therefor I will still stand behind my concept that Conner is the Shanshu Prophecy fulfilled. If Angel and Darla were "undead" how would they be able to conceive a child (all of their reproductive properties would be barren) ? If I am wrong I apologize.
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they only ever had sex as vampires... unless they did when she was with him everynight for a month(?).
 
The only thing I can say is that at the end of Reprise when Angel jolts up out of the bed, you can clearly see that something has happened. This is when he has his epiphany. I still believe that this is when he and Darla (during their shared night of passion) have a "human" moment because they both surrender to one another, thus she is able to become pregnant. Angel had sex with others (even Buffy) and they didnt get pregnant. Sorry to continue the argument, but I still say that Conner is the honoring of the Prophecy.
 
SlayersDestiny said:
The only thing I can say is that at the end of Reprise when Angel jolts up out of the bed, you can clearly see that something has happened. This is when he has his epiphany. I still believe that this is when he and Darla (during their shared night of passion) have a "human" moment because they both surrender to one another, thus she is able to become pregnant. Angel had sex with others (even Buffy) and they didnt get pregnant. Sorry to continue the argument, but I still say that Conner is the honoring of the Prophecy.
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This is probably the most obvious reference to who gets to shanshu:

Wouldn't the Senior Partners know who shanshus? I mean there pretty powerful and they made Angel sign it away. Not Spike. Certainly not Connor.
 
J
Jacklyn
Just what I was thinking.
I think that it should be for Spike. Angel is better fighting the good fight so he should stay that way. AND Spike died for the world Angel was killed by Buffy. Plus Spike chose to get a soul and Angel had it forced on him. Spike is better since he was good even w/o a soul.
 
I also thought Conner was able to be concieved because after the trials Angel was owed a life (Conner). And I know that this is the most obvious response but Angel was made human once (via demon in I Will Remember You) and he gave it back, And also I am not sure if this counts but his heart started beating again when Gwen Raiden touched him, not sure about the circumstances around that one but I would think that if one's unbeating heart starts beating again then you are alive. Just my observation.
 
Darla and Conner are definately not Shanshu material. I have reasons to why I think that both Spike and Angel are both worthy and not worthy of Shanshu.

Reasons why Angel should be the one to receive the Shanshu:
1. Shanshu was introduced on his show, and it is about him and his redemption
2. No denying the good he has done and the lives he has saved
3. He constantly is on guard about having that one moment of pure happiness and becoming Angelus
4. He handed over the amulet that saved the world
5. The whole do not kill order by the Wolf, Ram, and Hart

Reasons why Angel should not be the one to receive the Shanshu:
1. He signed it away
2. His whole brain rape of his friends, strangers who met Conner before the rape, Conner was murdered and replaced by a new one, and the rape of the new Conner's family including the mother, father, sister/brother, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc
3. His soul was forced upon him because of a curse, and is a punishment
4. He attempted to rejoin Spike, Drusilla, & Darla
5. Was useless for 100 years
6. Fed on humans willingly
7. The whole do not kill order by the Wolf, Ram, and Hart
8. He had his chance to be human, he gave it up

Reasons why Spike should be the one to receive the Shanshu:
1. He fought for his soul, he could have died obtaining it
2. As a result of that he wasn't useless for 100 years
3. He didn't try and rejoin a vampire gang attacking humans
4. While he was without a soul he didn't have to fight the good fight, he could have just ignored it all and moved on
5. When Buffy died to save Dawn, he kept his promise to her, he looked after Dawn for months and was willing to do so until she died for Buffy
6. His soul was not a punishment it was a way to give Buffy what she truly deserved, a man
7. Buffy gained something from him being ensouled, not a man she could completely trust with her life and the lives of those around her
8. After the betrayal of everyone in her house EXCEPT for Spike and Andrew, Spike gave her the strength to pick herself up and do what she knew deep down was right
9. Angel signed it away and there is no other ensouled vampire
10. When he got his body back in Angel Season 5 the universe started ripping itself a part because now there were two ensouled vampire Champions
11. He may not have been a champion to anyone else yet, but he was Buffy's champion
12. He saved Buffy from the suicide fire dance, with his true love

Reasons why Spike should not be the one to receive the Shanshu:
1. His relationship in Buffy Season 6 was not the healthiest, he put her down constantly
2. He did not seek his soul for a noble purpose, it was for a woman

I believe Spike is more worthy of Shanshu, though.
 
Does it really matter who will get the shanshu? And to be honest, why would Angel or Spike want to become human? So that either one of them could have the chance to woo Buffy? To have a normal life? There isn't really such a thing as a normal life. Just life. Is this about becoming mortal, again? To be honest, vampires were never really immortal, since they could be killed via a stake, fire, the sunshine or holy water.

So, what was the big deal about becoming shanshu? Or was this all about being important enough, or considered "a champion", so each could be considered worthy of such a prize?
 
What they really should do is not Shanshu and turn Buffy into a vamp, have Willow curse her with a soul and they can all live happy (but not *too* happy) and be pretty forever.
 
LadyLavinia said:
So, what was the big deal about becoming shanshu? Or was this all about being important enough, or considered "a champion", so each could be considered worthy of such a prize?
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I think vampires with a soul who die naturally are sent to hell because they are an unholy demon, and that the shanshu gives them the oppurtunity to be human and go to heaven.

As for the champion thing you mentioned they are both champions the universe said so when it started ripping itself apart after Spike got his body back, forget how that was stopped and who.
 
C
Cordelia
Good Point about the Heaven thing :)
SlayersDestiny said:
Perhaps I may be mistaken, but I am rather sure that Conner was conceived while he was human and I think before she was turned again, therefor I will still stand behind my concept that Conner is the Shanshu Prophecy fulfilled. If Angel and Darla were "undead" how would they be able to conceive a child (all of their reproductive properties would be barren) ? If I am wrong I apologize.
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The whole point was that they can't do the conceiving thing. That's why Darla kept searching for someone to tell her what was going on, or to get rid of it, and that's why the gang thought it would be a horrible demon from hell.

Yeah. As for the prophecy thing, it coulda just been a whole thing to keep them fighting. May I remind everyone of the fact that prophecies are never that reliable on Buffy and Angel?
 
Because they thought it was for him and no one else, and like all humans and demons they make mistakes. Just because they thought Angel was the reciever of the Shanshu doesn't mean he was the one who was going ot get it.
 
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