Shanshu Prophecy - meant for Angel or Spike?
- Thread starter Emo
- Start date
StuckinTraffic
Miss Treager
What about his coming back after being burned to ashes in the Hellmouth? That wasn't TPTB?
I don't think he did it just to get in Buffy's pants. That may have been one reason, but I think the main thing was that he felt bad for attacking and nearly raping her.
I, personally, think that the prophecy was meant for Angel. No matter that he was cursed with his soul and Spike actively sought his out. The prophecy was discovered way before Spike even thought about getting a soul. Besides that, the Black Thorn made Angel sign away his interest in fulfilling it, and whether they had the power to do that or not, it still shows that they considered it to be referring to him.
StuckinTraffic
Miss Treager
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Firstly, i have to say there is no doubt in my mind that the Shanshu is for Angel....my reasons are listed below.(Most circumstansial......one of two irrefutable...all together practically undismissable.)
1)Angel feels mysteriously drawn to the scroll in the W&H vault. He later mentions to Wesley, that he didn't know what exactley it was about but he somehow knew it was about him.
2)Vocah says that Angels connection to the PTB is complete when he is in possession of the Prophecies, indicating that the prophecy indeed is connected to Angel and that the prophecy comes from the PTB.
3)From the beginning the PTB and the SP are competing over Angel. Holland Manners, Nathan Reed, Jasmine all refer to Angel as the vampire who is the one the prophecies talk about.
4)In The House Always Wins Angel loses his destiny in a casino game. It is stated by the casino owner that part of his destiny is to play a pivitol role in the apocalypse.
5)The prophecy mentions that the vampire has to survive the coming darkness, plagues, fiends that are unleashed upon the earth and the apocalyptic battles .. a lot of these events take place in S4 and it's not Spike who faces them.
6)In You're Welcome Angel realizes that not only do the SP desperately try to get him on his side, even the PTB are still in his corner (and not in Spikes, which is what Lindsey wants to make him believe) protecting him through Cordys Vision. He finally believes the the prophecies indeed are about him, even Spike admits that he no longer claims that destiny.
7)The CotBT gets him to sign away the prophecy which would only makes sense if it is about him and not about anybody else.
So all clues lead to Angel and it doesn't matter that Spike became a champion or that he got a soul (for a girl) .. because it's destiny.
Secondly about Lindsay and Spike.
I dont think that Lindsay brought Spike back. He claims it as a means to get Spike on his side BUT lets look at what we know.
W&H gave Angel the amulet.
They had a falling out with Lindsay.
Eve works for the firm BUT is banging Lindsay.
Conclusion.
W&H planned to bring Spike back all along(or Angel...depending who used the Amulet). Lindsay knew of said Amulet and knew that it would bring back the user in Ghost form....he got this through eve.
He is the one who recorporealised Spike BUT i doubt he brought him back.
1)Angel feels mysteriously drawn to the scroll in the W&H vault. He later mentions to Wesley, that he didn't know what exactley it was about but he somehow knew it was about him.
2)Vocah says that Angels connection to the PTB is complete when he is in possession of the Prophecies, indicating that the prophecy indeed is connected to Angel and that the prophecy comes from the PTB.
3)From the beginning the PTB and the SP are competing over Angel. Holland Manners, Nathan Reed, Jasmine all refer to Angel as the vampire who is the one the prophecies talk about.
4)In The House Always Wins Angel loses his destiny in a casino game. It is stated by the casino owner that part of his destiny is to play a pivitol role in the apocalypse.
5)The prophecy mentions that the vampire has to survive the coming darkness, plagues, fiends that are unleashed upon the earth and the apocalyptic battles .. a lot of these events take place in S4 and it's not Spike who faces them.
6)In You're Welcome Angel realizes that not only do the SP desperately try to get him on his side, even the PTB are still in his corner (and not in Spikes, which is what Lindsey wants to make him believe) protecting him through Cordys Vision. He finally believes the the prophecies indeed are about him, even Spike admits that he no longer claims that destiny.
7)The CotBT gets him to sign away the prophecy which would only makes sense if it is about him and not about anybody else.
So all clues lead to Angel and it doesn't matter that Spike became a champion or that he got a soul (for a girl) .. because it's destiny.
Secondly about Lindsay and Spike.
I dont think that Lindsay brought Spike back. He claims it as a means to get Spike on his side BUT lets look at what we know.
W&H gave Angel the amulet.
They had a falling out with Lindsay.
Eve works for the firm BUT is banging Lindsay.
Conclusion.
W&H planned to bring Spike back all along(or Angel...depending who used the Amulet). Lindsay knew of said Amulet and knew that it would bring back the user in Ghost form....he got this through eve.
He is the one who recorporealised Spike BUT i doubt he brought him back.
A
Allycat
Guest
I see how the reasons above may very easily be connected to Angel... HOWEVER, they are all but irrefutable or undismissable. One theory could hold that the Partners and Powers wanted everybody to believe it was Angel, so that as little people as possible would interfer when they were tampering with Spike... see how it works.
The Partners put a spell on the scroll, so that Angel would be under the impressions that the prophecy was about him.
Again, could be all make believe.
Perhaps Angel does play a role, as his alignment might determine Spike's.
See the above argument. Angel does play a pivotal role, but is not the ultimate champion nor the one to shanshu.
Darkness, plague, fiends, apocalyptical battle... sounds a bit poetic to me... the vampire has to battle evil...big time... Souled Spike did so in Bs7 and As5. Besides, arguably Jasmine was good guy.
[/QUOTE]6)In You're Welcome Angel realizes that not only do the SP desperately try to get him on his side, even the PTB are still in his corner (and not in Spikes, which is what Lindsey wants to make him believe) protecting him through Cordys Vision. He finally believes the the prophecies indeed are about him, even Spike admits that he no longer claims that destiny. [/QUOTE]
Whether Spike claims it or not is of course irrelevant... as I said before, perhaps Angel's alignment determines Spike's.
Can you sign away a prophecy? I don't think so; I think it was a test of loyalty.
Now, I hardly think any of the above is true BUT my point isn't that Spike will shanshu... or that Angel will.... but that we can't know for sure... there's still too much uncertainty about it!
On that note, I'm rooting for Harmony to shanshu!
W
Winifred
I agree, we'll never really know who it was meant for
Reading all this and all the different views/facts, i agree and reckon it's completely how you want to interpret the information. Most of the points (as others have pointed out) can be used for/against Angel or Spike. Maybe Joss didn't want clarity on this so there was always a possibility to come back to it and create another story from some of the unanswered q's from season 5... (but personally i'm routing for Angel! :happy04: )
FahrbotDrusilla
Copacetic
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2004
- Messages
- 544
W
Wesley's Sylyna
Guest
I think it belongs to Angel.
Angel has done a lot of the things listed in the prophecy.
I don't know if you have read any of the Angel magazines.
But it was debated in there, Issue #8.
Only with 2 items listed for each vampire.
Spike: Playing the role in major apocalypse and getting back his soul.
Angel: Favor of the PTB and Favor of the real PTB, Team Wheaton (No matter how much we love Blondie-bear, it's still Angel's show :There words not mine!)
Result: A tie!
For more clues, I think we should re watch the Shanshu episodes, which are: "Blind date", "To Shanshu in LA", "Bloody money", "Reprise", "Salvage", "Peace out", "Hell bound", "Destiny", "Soul purpose", "You're welcome", and "Not Fade Away."
And a quote from the article.
"So Angel signs away his claim to the prophecy, and strides out into yet another apocalypse, swinging his sword and planning to slay a dragon. And that's the end of the Shanshu prophecy.
Or is it? For nearly five years, we've seen every major power from the Senior Partners on down, treat the Shanshu prophecy as incontrovertible truth, as something that will inevitably come to pass, one way or another. And it's still waiting to be fulfilled. So we have to ask, can the Circle's nasty bargain, even sealed with a champion's signature in blood (given, we point out, in true champion spirit of sacrifice), really have the power to un-write a major ancient prophecy? We don't think so. And maybe someday we'll find out."
Angel has done a lot of the things listed in the prophecy.
I don't know if you have read any of the Angel magazines.
But it was debated in there, Issue #8.
Only with 2 items listed for each vampire.
Spike: Playing the role in major apocalypse and getting back his soul.
Angel: Favor of the PTB and Favor of the real PTB, Team Wheaton (No matter how much we love Blondie-bear, it's still Angel's show :There words not mine!)
Result: A tie!
For more clues, I think we should re watch the Shanshu episodes, which are: "Blind date", "To Shanshu in LA", "Bloody money", "Reprise", "Salvage", "Peace out", "Hell bound", "Destiny", "Soul purpose", "You're welcome", and "Not Fade Away."
And a quote from the article.
"So Angel signs away his claim to the prophecy, and strides out into yet another apocalypse, swinging his sword and planning to slay a dragon. And that's the end of the Shanshu prophecy.
Or is it? For nearly five years, we've seen every major power from the Senior Partners on down, treat the Shanshu prophecy as incontrovertible truth, as something that will inevitably come to pass, one way or another. And it's still waiting to be fulfilled. So we have to ask, can the Circle's nasty bargain, even sealed with a champion's signature in blood (given, we point out, in true champion spirit of sacrifice), really have the power to un-write a major ancient prophecy? We don't think so. And maybe someday we'll find out."
