Shanshu, who?

[Kana]

Ok I found this thread but couldn't reply to it, so I hope people don't mind if I start a new one.

This came off the back of the latest Angel vs Spike thread (so fun) but I was wondering what were people's thoughts on the shanshu prophecy. That is: who do you think deserved it, do you think it was an interesting plot line, did Angel actually sign away his prophecy? Here are my thoughts:

Common arguments and points of discussion

It's Angel show, so he must be the one

I don't like outside show arguments. I believe in using what's in the show as evidence or indeed support for one's arguments

Jasmine said that Angel is the one in the Prophecy, so he's got to be the one

Jasmine also said she was going to wipe out humanity because of what Angel's done. But he didn't and was killed. So clearly she didn't know everything.

The PTBs chose Angel as their champion

And who said that Shanshuing has anything to do with the PTBs?

A ha! Lindsay said that the prophecy told of the vampire's links being cut off to the PTBs. This happened in To Shanshu in LA. That proves Angel is the one.

Apart from the fact that it wasn't completely cut off. Cordelia was saved and for one Angel has what believes is a one shot deal but this is uncertain. Events certainly didn't happen the way Lindsay expected.

The House Always Wins! This has to prove it!!!!!They said that Angel would be a player in the apocalypse and Spike was soulled at the time too!!!So that settles it.

Ok this is one of the better arguments for Angel's candidacy however, it's unclear if a) destiny can be stolen or indeed signed away but we'll look at that later and b) whether the information they got was specific in the sense that Angel was the soulled vampire in the prophecy. It's a possibility that they discovered he is a soulled vampire assumed that he was the one, or it could be that Spike and Angel will both play big parts in the apocalypse. So if you look it this way if you got either vamps destiny card it would say that they are soulled vampires who are going to play a role however this doesn't mean that the other respectively will Shanshu. Ha, squashed that!

Angel signed away his prophecy, HIS!

This was a common argument in the champion thread. This raises the question of whether a destiny can be signed away or given away. Your Destiny is Your Destiny isn't it? Can it really be changed?

I'll raise the question in another thread on what exactly Lorne reads but if Destiny is fixed in a Cassie Newton kind of way, then surely it doesn't matter if you try and sign it away.

If this is true then either:
a)COTBT didn't know this which seems unlikely or
b) They were focusing on Angel's willingness to give up hope in his humanity.

In any event, what Angel was signing away was his claim to the destiny. If you think of like this: The initial argument in bold supposes that it's Angel's to give away. It's like he owns it and if he signs it away he's giving it to Spike, handing it over if you will. I see it more like both vamps grabbing it at the same time and are tugging away at it. Angel signing it away is like his letting go of it. Get me? So it was never HIS to give up as such, he was giving up equal claim. Of course that's if signing it away actually does anything.

This may seem like I'm siding with Spike or Spike fans but I suppose I have vested interests in the ambiguity and also Angel being a self defined hero rather than a prophecy poster child...

 

[palabravampiress]

Your arguments are interesting. The tug-of-war thing got me thinking, though: what if another vamp becomes ensouled?

All Sanshu stuff assumes Angel and Spike, so people deal with those biases. We discuss character flaws and all sorts of things like that.

But what if Willow botched up a spell and Spike and Angel went all soulless? While our heroes were trying to rein in our terrible twosome, two unnamed, unknown fledgling vamps got their souls. So now we've got the same prophecy, but two different vamps with souls. We know nothing about these two vamps except that one signs up with the black thorn and signs away the prophecy.

Now that our feelings about Angel and Spike are off the table, how do we think that the prophecy will play out?

 

[white avenger]

But if Spike gets the Shanshu AND Buffy, just think how much more Angel will have to brood about!!! It could keep him going for DECADES!

 

[Kean]

Your arguments are interesting. The tug-of-war thing got me thinking, though: what if another vamp becomes ensouled?

All Sanshu stuff assumes Angel and Spike, so people deal with those biases. We discuss character flaws and all sorts of things like that.

But what if Willow botched up a spell and Spike and Angel went all soulless? While our heroes were trying to rein in our terrible twosome, two unnamed, unknown fledgling vamps got their souls. So now we've got the same prophecy, but two different vamps with souls. We know nothing about these two vamps except that one signs up with the black thorn and signs away the prophecy.

Now that our feelings about Angel and Spike are off the table, how do we think that the prophecy will play out?

Like you said with Xander v Spike maturity thing, there is just something nagging in the back of my mind telling me it's Angel. The show was all about Redemption, I can't help but feel it would really sour the whole thing if Angel turned out not to be THE Champion and didn't get his, I mean imagine the end of Buffy but she didn't get the sycthe and didn't save the day, that someone else did. To me that feels wrong.

 

[palabravampiress]

Like you said with Xander v Spike maturity thing, there is just something nagging in the back of my mind telling me it's Angel. The show was all about Redemption, I can't help but feel it would really sour the whole thing if Angel turned out not to be THE Champion and didn't get his, I mean imagine the end of Buffy but she didn't get the sycthe and didn't save the day, that someone else did. To me that feels wrong.

Well, yeah, except the end that we actually got was all cliffhangery. Grr. I guess we'll never know for sure. Did that irritate anyone else?

Good point about the redemption story. I LOVE redemption stories. I actually just wrote one. Well, I'm in revision mode now. And I'm starting on a new one. I can't get enough. In the first story, my main character finds redemption, but it's a different sort than that which she initially sought. She wanted to be restored to a social position she thought her due. In the end, once she was finally able to forgive herself for her past mistakes, she found that she really fit somewhere else entirely. I mean, it can work that way. I'm not entirely convinced that there is only one way for Angel to be redeemed. I suspect the journey is more important than the end, anyway.

Now, my new story is completely different. It's about a complete scoundrel who is sort of accidentally redeemed, but just a little. There's just a smidgen of good or worth or nobility or whatever you want to call it in even this scum-of-the-earth type fellow. And then I kill him. Because he's just the sort of asshole who would go and ruin it 5 seconds later of I didn't.

Anyway, I see Angel's story as kind of like the first one. I think he could have his redemption at any moment. He just has to think he's earned it and then decide to reach out and take it -- even if it looks a little different than he thought it would. I think Angel's hesitation - his desire to wait for the powers or some other 3rd party to hand it to him - is really his conscience refusing to let him be happy (and, erm, rightly so, until we figure out a way to break the no happiness part of the curse).

 

[Lyri]

it hard for us to leave our biases behind when we're answering a question like this. i mean, there are hard core Spike fans out there, like myself, and die hard Angel fans, like Keanoite up there. we all want the best for our boys, lol.

i know the whole show was centred around Angel, but that isn't a good enough reason to say that the Shanshu is his. sure, he's done a lot of good since he got his soul back, but he was kinda forced into that. his soul was a curse, because of who he killed. he was cursed to live with the knowledge of every evil deed he did. if he hadn't killed that girl, he'd still be Angelus and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for.

Angel signed away the prophecy, but that doesn't really mean anything, whether the Shanshu was his or not. you can't sign away a prophecy, that's the whole point. it's predestined. Angel might be the one, Spike might be the one, but the point is, we could sit here and argue until we're blue in the face, but we're not gonna come up with an answer unless Joss steps up to the plate as far as S6 is concerned!

 

[Kean]

Well, yeah, except the end that we actually got was all cliffhangery. Grr. I guess we'll never know for sure. Did that irritate anyone else?

Good point about the redemption story. I LOVE redemption stories. I actually just wrote one. Well, I'm in revision mode now. And I'm starting on a new one. I can't get enough. In the first story, my main character finds redemption, but it's a different sort than that which she initially sought. She wanted to be restored to a social position she thought her due. In the end, once she was finally able to forgive herself for her past mistakes, she found that she really fit somewhere else entirely. I mean, it can work that way. I'm not entirely convinced that there is only one way for Angel to be redeemed. I suspect the journey is more important than the end, anyway.

Now, my new story is completely different. It's about a complete scoundrel who is sort of accidentally redeemed, but just a little. There's just a smidgen of good or worth or nobility or whatever you want to call it in even this scum-of-the-earth type fellow. And then I kill him. Because he's just the sort of asshole who would go and ruin it 5 seconds later of I didn't.

Anyway, I see Angel's story as kind of like the first one. I think he could have his redemption at any moment. He just has to think he's earned it and then decide to reach out and take it -- even if it looks a little different than he thought it would. I think Angel's hesitation - his desire to wait for the powers or some other 3rd party to hand it to him - is really his conscience refusing to let him be happy (and, erm, rightly so, until we figure out a way to break the no happiness part of the curse).

I think he feels he hasn't done enough and maybe he never will. But I do think it will have to be given to him not just taken. The ring of Amarra and The day that wasn't proved that and possibly everything with Connor. To have a child is very much a human thing, he isn't supposed to get that yet. All reminders that he has miles to go before he sleeps.

 

[palabravampiress]

I think he feels he hasn't done enough and maybe he never will. But I do think it will have to be given to him not just taken. The ring of Amarra and The day that wasn't proved that and possibly everything with Connor. To have a child is very much a human thing, he isn't supposed to get that yet. All reminders that he has miles to go before he sleeps.

I agree. I think that when he feels he's ready, he'll be redeemed. But if he's not ready yet -- if he pushes away every step forward -- then how can the Sanshu be his?

 

[Kean]

I agree. I think that when he feels he's ready, he'll be redeemed. But if he's not ready yet -- if he pushes away every step forward -- then how can the Sanshu be his?

I haven't read the comic but it seems that this Angel is very much about the fight. NFA showed that, he was all about his mission again. So I think he is back on the right track

 

[Kana]

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to explain this but what you wrote is actually fine. I actually meant outside the Verse. Sort of like production, or something James Marsters said in bar, that kind of deal. I suppose I mainly use the argument when arguing morality or something like that. Saying for example,"why did Angel kill Drogyn?" and then replying "Well the writers made it that way," Saying it's Angel's show isn't really an 'in the Verse' argument, but using evidence from Buffy is fine. Not really easy to explain but hey

Ok now to throw another spanner in the works. Is Shanshuing, becoming human? That's what most people assume but it literally means to live and die.

Also most people assume it's a reward but who is doing the rewarding. The PTBs moral ambiguity has already been mentioned and we know at least one wasn't considered favourable by AI. Remember the prophecy isn't clear on what side the vampire is going to be when the big show goes down, so if he or she destroys humanity, will the so called forces for good, reward him or her. Again this questions whether the Shanshu is about redemption.

Notice the 'him or her' Yes I accept the possibility the vampire may not be Spike or Angel.

 

[Kean]

Spike fought for his soul, to be a better man so that he could be worthy of the girl he loved. you said not to use arguments outside of the show (Angel) but you can't ignore that fact, no matter which side you fight for

Didn't Angel essentially do the smae thing? like you said he was cursed with his soul it was only when Whistler showed him Buffy that he decieded to make use of it, he wanted to be better for the woman he loved.

To be honest though I don't think who you are in love with or what you do for that love has anything to do with Shanshu.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So did Angel really love Buffy when her saw her for the first time as Keanoite put ? That would mean the rat boy fell in love with her at first sight.
Some-body also referred to Buffy saving the day because of the scythe, if Spike wasn't there with the amulet Buffy would have died.
Although Spike was wearing the amulet, he did stop the evil from taking the world, he did save the vampire slayer line.
So give it all to Spike,
I'd like to see Angel as the mail boy again.

 

[Kean]

So did Angel really love Buffy when her saw her for the first time as Keanoite put ? That would mean the rat boy fell in love with her at first sight.
Some-body also referred to Buffy saving the day because of the scythe, if Spike wasn't there with the amulet Buffy would have died.
Although Spike was wearing the amulet, he did stop the evil from taking the world, he did save the vampire slayer line.
So give it all to Spike,
I'd like to see Angel as the mail boy again.

Angel already said he loved her at first sight in Helpless, we have known that for years.

and as far as the scythe thing goes, Spike wouldn't have saved anything if Angel had't brought the amulet to Sunnydale. I don't think that amulet was specific to Spike at all.

 

[palabravampiress]

Love at first sight? Pooh!

I had forgotten about that. Oh, that bothers me tons. It is sooo creepy. I get it from Buffy's POV. From that POV, Bangel is all cute and Disney-like. But from Angel's POV? "Hi, I'm a 200+ year old man who lives in a sewer. I came up to see you walking out of the schoolyard, little high school FRESHMAN, and I fell in love at first sight." Oh, ewwwww. Can you say "pedophile?" Why does this not seem to creep anyone else out? Adults should NOT fall "in love at first sight" with 14-year-olds.

 

[Kean]

not to get all technical but she was 15!!

Angel was an 18th century boy, marrying a fourteen year old would have been perfectly acceptable to him.

And can I ask one question? How in the name of God could Bangel EVER be described as disney-like? There isn't a happy ending in sight. Nobody lives happily ever after? Its pretty much pain pain and more pain!!

 

[Kana]

If you edit out the Angelus bits, then year, sure lol, very disney.

I don't instintually find Bangel creepy but it's a little weird when you think about it I guess by today's standards. I also suppose the idea of sleeping with a vampire was dealt with on the show briefly. Sleeping with corpses? Anyway...

About Angel being the delivery boy? I don't really like to look at it like that. I certainly don't use it as a mark against Angel as he was willing to fight with Buffy and wear the amulet but Buffy felt he would be more valuable being the back-up Buffy if you will, which, although he didn't have to use the second front was still a huge responsibility. Well, as Angel said, it was Buffy's call but I don't that makes Angel's intentions wrong or not to be counted. However it's not to nullify what Spike did. That has it's own value, but I guess I don't put it on a scoreboard.

 

[Kean]

If you edit out the Angelus bits, then year, sure lol, very disney.

I don't instintually find Bangel creepy but it's a little weird when you think about it I guess by today's standards. I also suppose the idea of sleeping with a vampire was dealt with on the show briefly. Sleeping with corpses? Anyway...

About Angel being the delivery boy? I don't really like to look at it like that. I certainly don't use it as a mark against Angel as he was willing to fight with Buffy and wear the amulet but Buffy felt he would be more valuable being the back-up Buffy if you will, which, although he didn't have to use the second front was still a huge responsibility. Well, as Angel said, it was Buffy's call but I don't that makes Angel's intentions wrong or not to be counted. However it's not to nullify what Spike did. That has it's own value, but I guess I don't put it on a scoreboard.

I'm still struggling to see the disney. If Buffy and Angel had gotten the Disney touch well then they would be living happily ever after in a castle in Ireland sprouting out babies like theres no tomorrow!! but then we have reality!

I don't think anything should be taken away from what either of them did. As far as I'm concerned they both played huge roles!

 

[palabravampiress]

not to get all technical but she was 15!!

Angel was an 18th century boy, marrying a fourteen year old would have been perfectly acceptable to him.

And can I ask one question? How in the name of God could Bangel EVER be described as disney-like? There isn't a happy ending in sight. Nobody lives happily ever after? Its pretty much pain pain and more pain!!

Ok. 15 is a little better. And yeah, that makes a little more sense in an 18th-century-context (although 14 would have been a bit young for a gentry class girl to be "out," even in the 18th century). Doing a 14-year-old servant (a la Pamela) would have been more the norm. Liam looked to be lower gentry to me -- nowhere near titled and not exactly rich, but landed and with a pew at church and at least enough money for a maid-of-all-work and a carriage (when the horse wasn't in the field).

I think of it as being Disney-like because it's all star-crossed loverey and romantic. The ideas of teenage girls falling into true love and love at first sight remind me of Disney movies. But you're right, those do have happy endings, and poor Buffy and Angel never do get their happy ending.

 

[Kean]

Ok. 15 is a little better. And yeah, that makes a little more sense in an 18th-century-context (although 14 would have been a bit young for a gentry class girl to be "out," even in the 18th century). Doing a 14-year-old servant (a la Pamela) would have been more the norm. Liam looked to be lower gentry to me -- nowhere near titled and not exactly rich, but landed and with a pew at church and at least enough money for a maid-of-all-work and a carriage (when the horse wasn't in the field).

I think of it as being Disney-like because it's all star-crossed loverey and romantic. The ideas of teenage girls falling into true love and love at first sight remind me of Disney movies. But you're right, those do have happy endings, and poor Buffy and Angel never do get their happy ending.

To be honest I think they got Angel's gentry all wrong in the show. At that time and in that part of Ireland, it was the poorest of the poor. Angel's father being a merchant seems a little far fetched and being openly catholic would have been extremley difficult. It would have been more likely that he had a small holding of land that his family worked and really by 26 he would have taken a wife and he probably would have spoken Irish too. And 14 really wouldn't have been that shocking, almost expected. It would have worked better if they made him from Dublin, then his story would make sense.

 

[wiccianslayer]

ok i converted my dad in to an angel fan (i know i'm good) and he revcons its not gonna be spke or angel he thinks its gonna be conner and i gotta agree partly