Shanshu, who?

[Kean]

How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike

Ok not get all religious freak on ya but Angel was brought up Catholic. As a Catholic he would have been thought that there is forgiveness and Paradise for everyone once you confess and repent. That's what he has been doing, forgiveness is what he wants more than anything, to have hope of Heaven again.
And really why shouldn't he? I mean we will never cause the hurt that he has but none of us will do the kind of good he has done either. And as for Spike, I don't see why how you can say he was less brutal? railroads through the head? the story he was telling Dawn about the little girl in the coal bunker? Spike was evil and not just a little bit, A LOT!!!

 

[Kana]

I think it does get a little "let's not quibble" Spike in Damage gets insight in the fact that he did a lot of damage. Angelus damage was different, and personal but Spike still wrecked a lot of lives. Angelus almost destroyed the world but then Spike almost aided the same thing for his 'Princess'. Do we nitpick and say "yeah but Angelus, more so?" I don't think Spike himself would accept that.

I kind of like Angel's humanistic approach to being a champion anyways. Helping where you can standing up for elements of human dignity with which you can identify, whether you get a reward or not. To Angel is doesn't matter "what you've done or suffered", you can still change and help people.

 

[Joyce Summers]

I think maybe I just have issues with Angel over the whole Jenny thing....
But I think Keanoite's banner, ironically made by me haha, petty much somes up whatwe're discussing in this thread; forgiveness. And I suppose through that message I come to the conclusion that they are both equally deserving. As Giles said 'forgiveness is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it'. And both Spike and Angel need forgiveness and need redemption so I suppose that makes them equal in their rights to Shanshu. Honestly though, I don't know whether Spike would be happy being made human. I mean we know Angel would be...but Spike? Even when he's good he seems to get a rush from the strength and power of being vampire. I don't think he'd really want to give that up

 

[Kean]

I said that very same thing on another thread. I really don't think Spike would wan't humanity. He doesn't have a curse hanging over him, he can get on with his life and be as a happy or whatever he wants to be. He hated who he was as human and I don't think he wants to go to that in any way, shape or form. Unlike Angel he likes who he is.

 

[palabravampiress]

I think maybe I just have issues with Angel over the whole Jenny thing....
But I think Keanoite's banner, ironically made by me haha, petty much somes up whatwe're discussing in this thread; forgiveness. And I suppose through that message I come to the conclusion that they are both equally deserving. As Giles said 'forgiveness is an act of compassion. It's not done because people deserve it, it's done because they need it'. And both Spike and Angel need forgiveness and need redemption so I suppose that makes them equal in their rights to Shanshu. Honestly though, I don't know whether Spike would be happy being made human. I mean we know Angel would be...but Spike? Even when he's good he seems to get a rush from the strength and power of being vampire. I don't think he'd really want to give that up

I buy this. I don't think Spike wants the human part. I think he wants the forgiveness and redemption part, though. He might take the human part to get the other part.

Although, here's a thought: in the Did Buffy Sleep with Spike in Season 7 thread, I sort of theorized that Spike was already all forgiven and redeemed. I mean, if his story had ended with his death, I don't think any of us would be sitting around wondering. That was sort of the whole point. I had all of this "think like a poet" reasoning. It made perfect sense to me. I mean, he had the effulgent soul there to burst forth and save the day with its pretty pretty rays of light. I'd figure you'd have to have been redeemed for your soul to be sparkly fresh enough to close a hellmouth.

Spike coming back sort of screws with that theory, but maybe not. Dude, what if Spike already Shanshued and Joss is just messing with us? The vampire with a soul will play a major role in the apocalypse. Well, being the chosen one and saving the world, that's a pretty major role. Then there's that cryptic part about Shanshu meaning both living and dying. Wesley interpreted that as mortality, but what if Wes was wrong? Heck, he appears to have been wrong about Connor, talking hamburgers notwithstanding. I mean Spike died and now he's back. Doesn't that sort of encompass the whole both living and dying thing?

Maybe everyone is completely misinterpreting the prophecy and it doesn't involve becoming a real boy at all. I mean, it's a prophecy. Sometimes, those get way overblown all the time. Buffy's death at the Master's hand was grossly exaggerated. The Connor prophecy was a fib. What if there's something fishy about this one, too?

 

[Kean]

I buy this. I don't think Spike wants the human part. I think he wants the forgiveness and redemption part, though. He might take the human part to get the other part.

Although, here's a thought: in the Did Buffy Sleep with Spike in Season 7 thread, I sort of theorized that Spike was already all forgiven and redeemed. I mean, if his story had ended with his death, I don't think any of us would be sitting around wondering. That was sort of the whole point. I had all of this "think like a poet" reasoning. It made perfect sense to me. I mean, he had the effulgent soul there to burst forth and save the day with its pretty pretty rays of light. I'd figure you'd have to have been redeemed for your soul to be sparkly fresh enough to close a hellmouth.

Spike coming back sort of screws with that theory, but maybe not. Dude, what if Spike already Shanshued and Joss is just messing with us? The vampire with a soul will play a major role in the apocalypse. Well, being the chosen one and saving the world, that's a pretty major role. Then there's that cryptic part about Shanshu meaning both living and dying. Wesley interpreted that as mortality, but what if Wes was wrong? Heck, he appears to have been wrong about Connor, talking hamburgers notwithstanding. I mean Spike died and now he's back. Doesn't that sort of encompass the whole both living and dying thing?

Maybe everyone is completely misinterpreting the prophecy and it doesn't involve becoming a real boy at all. I mean, it's a prophecy. Sometimes, those get way overblown all the time. Buffy's death at the Master's hand was grossly exaggerated. The Connor prophecy was a fib. What if there's something fishy about this one, too?

Thats a really good question. But Spike as a vampire isn't living at all, he is undead. I think Joss is going to spring something on us because like you said Wes's interpretation was pretty vague and well he doesn't have the best track record, I mean even in Buffy he got that thing with Il Iliminati completely arse ways! I think he is going to shock us with something and make all the years of debate worthless! It would be just like him too!

 

[Joyce Summers]

Oh my god palabra I think you just gave me a moment of Shanshu enlightenment. Your theory over Spike already being shanshued just made every click into place, like literally I heard the pieces of the puzzle slot into their Shanshu home.
You're right that Wesley said Shanshu means both to live and to die and as you pointed out Spike has already done that, plus I completely agree on how he'd have to have redemption already to be channel the evil-destroying, world-saving sunlight and prophecies are always sketchy. The Father Will Kill the Son, The Slayer will Face the Master and She will Die, and how many prophecies of apocolypses have both A.I and the Scoobies proved wrong time and time again? And like you said, Wesley has got it wrong before.
Whoa, I'm actually in a moment of geeker bliss (well maybe not bliss but a pretty darn happy place) over this revelation you've shown me.

So...erm...yeah.....I agree .::clears throat self-consciously::.

 

[TabulaRasa]

Spike. I have said it 100 times, here's 101. I just believe he is the true champion.

 

[greetings]

A thought I just had... Darla was a vampire-with-a-soul for a while too, when she was pregnant with Connor. Kind of gives you the idea that it could end up being about some other vampire that isn't Spike or Angel.

 

[Lou]

AHHHHHH! Deep thought! I am feeling better and my computer APPEARS to be working, so I'm game.

I have mixed Shanshu feelings.

1.) All the "proof" of the Shanshu seems to be shady because it all seems to come from WR&H. That doesn't make it untrue, but shady.
2.) Wes's interpretations....or anyone's make it a bit shaky. Translation is in the eye of the beholder. :looking:
3.) Since we don't know which side the said Vampire with the soul is fighting for, we really have no idea whether the better Champion, better Man, nicer guy or anything SHOULD get it. The better Champion might be in the battle, but if the Shanshu guy is on the BAD side, perhaps the better Champion is fighting against him.
4.) It seems rather HIP to be a Vampire with a soul so there could be zillions more and gee....pick an apocolypse.
5.) Eve doesn't exactly explain everything, but she alludes to the fact that she and Lindsey faked the whole "universe in flux" thing.
6.) Spike COULD have been Shanshued, because even he says in the special features that no one knows how or why he came back. And we're not entirely clear on what the prophecy says about being "alive". Sure enough, he did "die" and then he came back. It's not quite the way Wesley led us to believe it would be, but it does cover both life and death.
7.) I still think it's impossible to sign away a prophecy unless by doing so, Angel had given up his soul. And I still think that by signing it away that, he easily could have set himself UP for the Shanshu. Assuming, that it's real, translated correctly, a good thing, and we have the correct apocolypse.

 

[palabravampiress]

I agree with Dlou444. This Shanshu stuff is pretty shady. There are tons of ways to go with it. There are a lot of valid possibilities. There are also a lot of vague half-truths from unreliable sources, any one of which could be turned on its head at any one time. Also, there is always the possibility of another ensouled vamp coming into the picture. Unless Joss someday finally tells us what he really means, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. I kind of don't want to know. I think that when Joss tells us, the Buffyverse will have had its final battle.

For now, though, my money is on the Spike already Shanshued theory because that would just be too funny. I would just love it if Joss one day revealed that he had played that nasty little trick on us. Heck, the looks on various characters' faces would be priceless -- not least of all the look on Spike's own face. Haha. I think I find this theory the most potentially amusing theory that I've seen so far, even if it is my theory. I guess that's why I'm able to get behind it. It would be a hoot! I'm always up for a plot twist that tickles my funny bone.

 

[Lou]

And, sure, Spike may be TECNICALLY "undead", but is that not alive? He's surely more alive in Season 5 of Angel than in the last 5 minutes of Buffy. Besides, he spent 7 seasons on these shows, traveling, being in love, having sex, drinking, sampling blooming onions, having parties, making friends, saving the world, being held captive, playing poker....heck, the guy "lives" more than I do! Granted, I've been to the beach in the last year but that's not saying all THAT much.

Edit:

I think it does get a little "let's not quibble" Spike in Damage gets insight in the fact that he did a lot of damage. Angelus damage was different, and personal but Spike still wrecked a lot of lives. Angelus almost destroyed the world but then Spike almost aided the same thing for his 'Princess'. Do we nitpick and say "yeah but Angelus, more so?" I don't think Spike himself would accept that.

I kind of like Angel's humanistic approach to being a champion anyways. Helping where you can standing up for elements of human dignity with which you can identify, whether you get a reward or not. To Angel is doesn't matter "what you've done or suffered", you can still change and help people.

I just find this interesting. It's a good point.
I think I find the difference in Spike's Damage and Angelus's Damage to be different in many ways though.
Angelus is just a poop. I think of him as sheer evil in many ways. Tormenting people, making Drusilla a nut case, even the way he hopped around Sunnydale happily messing with people's heads. He's like a serial killer who picks his victim, stalks them, lets them KNOW he's stalking them, kills their family and finally comes after them. That's cruel.

Spike strikes me more as a drunk driver. He's not setting his sights on people and tormenting everyone around them and making them crazy. He's just having fun and going on with his life and anyone that gets caught in the crossfire....oh well. But, it's not the same INTENT....other than maybe that first Slayer woman, but then again, she WAS a Slayer and potentially a thorn in his happy care-free life.

He didn't want to end the world. Sure, he admits it's for selfish reasons. But, then again, if I had the option to save the world or send it into hell....I'd choose to save it.....for selfish reasons. My life, my friends, my family...not because I'd be thinking of the zillions of people I've never met and how they deserve to be happy and not thrown in to hell.

In any case...the redemption, in MY mind, is different for the two scenarios. And, sadly, all still comes back to Spike isn't all that bad pre-soul....or pre-chip. As long as you didn't ACTIVELY cross him...and even if you did, he might decide to work with you anyway if it means getting his girlfriend back.

 

[palabravampiress]

And, sure, Spike may be TECNICALLY "undead", but is that not alive? He's surely more alive in Season 5 of Angel than in the last 5 minutes of Buffy. Besides, he spent 7 seasons on these shows, traveling, being in love, having sex, drinking, sampling blooming onions, having parties, making friends, saving the world, being held captive, playing poker....heck, the guy "lives" more than I do! Granted, I've been to the beach in the last year but that's not saying all THAT much.

Edit:



I just find this interesting. It's a good point.
I think I find the difference in Spike's Damage and Angelus's Damage to be different in many ways though.
Angelus is just a poop. I think of him as sheer evil in many ways. Tormenting people, making Drusilla a nut case, even the way he hopped around Sunnydale happily messing with people's heads. He's like a serial killer who picks his victim, stalks them, lets them KNOW he's stalking them, kills their family and finally comes after them. That's cruel.

Spike strikes me more as a drunk driver. He's not setting his sights on people and tormenting everyone around them and making them crazy. He's just having fun and going on with his life and anyone that gets caught in the crossfire....oh well. But, it's not the same INTENT....other than maybe that first Slayer woman, but then again, she WAS a Slayer and potentially a thorn in his happy care-free life.

He didn't want to end the world. Sure, he admits it's for selfish reasons. But, then again, if I had the option to save the world or send it into hell....I'd choose to save it.....for selfish reasons. My life, my friends, my family...not because I'd be thinking of the zillions of people I've never met and how they deserve to be happy and not thrown in to hell.

In any case...the redemption, in MY mind, is different for the two scenarios. And, sadly, all still comes back to Spike isn't all that bad pre-soul....or pre-chip. As long as you didn't ACTIVELY cross him...and even if you did, he might decide to work with you anyway if it means getting his girlfriend back.

First off, Angelus isn't "like" that serial killer. He is that serial killer. What you just described is exactly what he did to Dru -- then he had the nerve to make her into a killer like him.

And about Spike, well, yeah; you're right. He might work with you to get his girlfriend back. But he might also freakin' eat you under the assumption that said girlfriend will dig that. Eat you! And not in the good way.

They are different kinds of scary, yeah, but I wouldn't have wanted to cross paths with either one of them, that's for sure. Was Spike really less evil just because his kills were less premeditated? I, for one, wouldn't have wanted to have ended up on either list of victims.

 

[Lou]

Vampires don't really count as serial killers do they? Okay, maybe...but not in the normal every day world where there aren't so many vampires.

Personally, if I had a choice, I think I'd rather be random passer-by victim then stalk me, scare me, kill my family and make me wonder when it's my turn victim. But, that is just me.

But, that also delves into my reasons for being against the death penalty and that's just a box of worms that needent be opened.

There are different levels of killer. Serial Killer who kills a family and Drunk Driver Guy who kills a family. Sure, both families still dead and not one deader than the other. But, there IS an intent factor there. I've yet to meet anyone who wants to drive drunk that sets out to kill anyone...much less hopes to kill a certain someone. Sure, people die and drunk driver's know it's possible. And a bad thing. But more of a side-effect of the drinker being selfish and not wanting to rearrange their life and not as deliberate as being a serial killer.
The redemption for such an act is different, and should be. Someone SERIOUSLY feeling remorse for driving drunk...there are things they can do. Volunteer, share their stories with others, start a organization, drive around to bars every night being the "free taxi". There's not the same outlet for serial killers. Highschool's don't really want to invite you in so you can counsel the students on how bad stalking and killing is. And no one wants you trolling the bars at night...even if it's to clear the parking lots of serial killers before last call.

I can forgive vampires random killing. Chickie alone in an alley...dumb and not just because of vampires. It's like the how Circle of Life thing from the Lion King. Intentionally hunting people down and tormenting them...different. And, really, the only people I see Spike hunting down to kill is...His Mom...(But for sweet reasons), the Slayers (which was still kind of a kill or be killed thing and even then, we're talking three and he only killed two) and they make references in the show that he killed the poop heads who made fun of his poems. And I have to admit, I kind of felt like doing that too. In fact, in that episode, when Buffy gets all mean to him at the end, I kind of wanted to ram a railroad spike into HER head too.
But, still that's two slayers and maybe a room full of people that we maybe know he actively went after. Everyone else, was just random consequences of being a vampire. Surely he made up for ONE of those when he offed that Creepy Annointed Kid!

 

[Lorne]

Well well a touchy subject most definitely. Those who are die-hard fans of Angel would assume the prophecy was meant for him, and him alone as he was the first vampire with a soul. The soul was given to him by force though, if you recall from Buffy Season 2 when he reminisces (seems to be my word for the day) about the curse of the Gypsies when he devoured their beloved clan member.

Here's my two sense on this:

Spike went to the trials on the other side of the world after he attempted to rape Buffy during the end of Season 6, when that failed he wanted to return to his former self, without the chip. That was the point of his seeking the demon out for the three trials and a gift in the end which was his goal, to become a soulless Spike again. He did not intend to be given his soul, that was not the plan. He wanted to be the man he was before he desired Buffy, back when he wanted her dead.

Then when he received the soul, he realized what a gift it truly was, and decided it was worth it after the insanity of the First let him be.

Spike and Angel both are champions to the Powers that Be. They've been through trials that should be impossible.

Angel went through a similar trial in Season 2 when Darla was brought back to life by the Senior Partners at Wolfram & Hart. He went to the trial to restore Darla's life span so she could live out a normal life with his protection. When that failed, or so they assumed, Angel stopped believing in prophecies... especially when Darla informed him after she'd been turned back into a vampire that she was pregnant with their son. Wesley was the one who told them that Angel was to kill Connor after he was born, and that was truly when Angel stopped believing in prophecies because as we all know Connor was taken by (what was his name... I can't recall it right now but it will come back to me I'm sure) - any who he was taken to another deminsion by HOLTS, I think... dimension, sorry -

Angel assumed at that point that the ShanShu was another myth meant to mislead him. However when he learned of Spike's soul restored to him he began to see the possibilities that he might have to fight for it after all, if he ever wanted to be the one that would be able to bite Buffy's cookie dough.

The ShanShu is supposed to depict the winner of the prophecy who's main goal is to win against the ultimate evil, the final apocalypse that would change the balance of good and evil over all. Angel and Spike are after the ShanShu for two things, and two things only though each has their own better ways into getting to that point - to beat the other and get the ShanShu just because they despise each other, and to win Buffy back from "The Immortal".

So with the cliff-hanger at the end of Season 5, it's really interesting to see that Angel and Spike are both still alive and both still fighting the final Apocalypse and working together to get the same thing. When it comes down to it however, will one of them back down? There was one episode in Season 5 which seemed that Spike would be the winner after all when he drank from the Chalice that was supposed to have the ShanShu inside it. That makes one wonder if he is going to be it, or if Angel let him have it? Or is Angel supposed to have it? It's all up to what you think and how you feel truly.

Me personally, I think Angel should get it, but again that's because I'm a die-hard fan. However, there's a small part of me that thinks Spike deserves the ShanShu, because technically he won it when Angel signed his soul on the contract of the ShanShu prophecy itself when he betrayed the Order.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Spike went to the trials on the other side of the world after he attempted to rape Buffy during the end of Season 6, when that failed he wanted to return to his former self, without the chip. That was the point of his seeking the demon out for the three trials and a gift in the end which was his goal, to become a soulless Spike again. He did not intend to be given his soul, that was not the plan. He wanted to be the man he was before he desired Buffy, back when he wanted her dead.

Actually, according to Joss, Spike had every intention of getting his soul back. It was written ambiguously so it would be a surprise--we were supposed to THINK he was trying to get the chip out. Spike's re-ensoulment was entirely voluntary.

 

[palabravampiress]

You've summed it up nicely, Lorne, minus the bit about spike's soul being an accident. Like Blondie Bear said, that was entirely voluntary. The boys do seem to be running neck-and-neck, with Spike maybe a little in the lead by virtue of having won his soul.

What do you think about Spike's soul as it appeared in The Chosen, all shiny and good and cleansing-of-evil? What do you think about the fact that he died and was resurrected?

From Destiny:

ANGEL: I really wished you stayed a ghost.
SPIKE: But I didn't, did I? Burned up saving the world,
and now I'm back for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm
the one, you git!

In this episode, Spike's arguments and the imagery that is attached to them win me over. In fact, they cause me to theorize that Spike has already Shan Shued. To live and to die, right? Well, my little pet theory is that the prophecy doesn't refer to human mortality at all. I think it's vague for a reason, that reason being Spike. He died saving the world with his glowy good soulness and then he came back - complete with effulgence and cross imagery and stuff. I think that's what the prophecy means.

That's just what I think it means, though. What do you think it means, Lorne?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I think that although I see the point people are making with Spike having 'fought' for his soul they disregard the fact that Angel fought to keep his.

It's all well people saying that Angel had his soul placed upon him as a curse but we have to take into account a few things.
One is that second and third time Angel has his soul restored it isn't against Angel's wishes.
Willow gives him his soul back and its likely that he would want her to. We often go back to the initial Gypsy curse but we forget that the two times after, although it is the same enchantment used, Angel wouldn't see it as a curse this time.
He understands what it means to be Angel and the cross he has to bear.
Secondly, it took so much strength to retain his soul. He could have given in but he didn't. Spike knew what was going to happen when the soul was restored, he was, dare I say, prepared for it. He was an evil vampire but for 2+ years he'd been helping the good guys and even fallen for one.
One of the things that the two have in common is that they are doing what is right because it is right NOT because there is a reward at the end of it.
There is also one more thing - Spike.
He got what he wanted. He likes being the Vampire. He likes the strength, the living forever stuff, he got what he truly wanted. He got, more importantly, what he thought Buffy wanted, He believes what Buffy wants is a Super man. If he thought she wanted Mr Normal he wouldn't have got just his soul back, he'd have become human and I think that plays into the whole Shanshu.
The trials he can have anything and he doesn't choose human form, he chooses a simple Soul.

Plus, Angel as a human would be Angel and is something I like the idea of, Spike, well he wouldn't be Spike he wouldn'y have the things that make him different from the geeky original self and I definitely don't think he wants that.

He doesn't want to Shanshu, he just doesn't want Angel to have it.
I would wager that if it emerged that Harmony got a soul and Shanshued, he'd love it(not just for an ironic reason).

No Spike doesn't want it, he deserves it as much, but not more so, than Angel and it wouldn't suit him.

 

[palabravampiress]

So you think returning to humanity is the most important aspect of the prophecy, then? I'm not entirely convinced on that one, but I'll pretend for a minute.

How do you account for Angel having experienced humanity and given it up because he wanted to be a champion?

You're basically arguing that Spike wouldn't want humanity and that Angel would. I can see where you're coming from, but the fact is, that's only been tested on Angel. Curiously enough, Angel gave it back. That, to me, says neither one wants to shuffle back into their old mortal coils all that much. Although Spike might. I don't know. It hasn't been tested.

The other thing is, the Shan Shu isn't just humanity. It's also redemption and forgiveness. You acknowledge that, although they have very different styles, both vamps fight for the good guys because it's right. Ultimately, they know they're damned. I mean, they both went to Hell (although Angel's stint was of considerably longer duration). They do what's right anyway not because they think they can get a reward, but just because it's right. But if humanity was the price they had to pay to be redeemed and forgiven, don't you think they'd take it? I mean, they both pretty desperately want to be good guys, but they're crippled not only by this horrible past that they share, but also by the fact that they both liked it. I'd argue that, more than anything - more than Buffy, even - they both want to be good, but feel that they never can be quite good enough as long as that past is there. If the Shan Shu offered real forgiveness and redemption for that, don't you think they'd take it? Even if it meant mortality and death? They've both been tortured for less. They've both been killed for less. I think they'd both take humanity and its attendant pleasures and pains for a shot at real redemption.

I think they both deserve and want the Shan Shu. I just think Spike already got it. Or maybe Darla. lol. She died and came back, too. 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Angel gave it back and in that moment he was definitely doing it for his ego NOT for Buffy, however look at Angels face at the end of TSILA. The idea that he would ge human again was pleasing to him.

Spike on the other hand, the only way he'd choose humanity is if he could keep his super powers. Spike loves who he is too much. He doesn't seek redemption of forgiveness, he knows who he is, was and to an extent will be.

Neither 'pretty desperately want to be good guys' they are good guys. There is a big difference. Angel has the problem of not dealing with that, that is why he sees being human not so much a reward but that he can be forgiven for his passed life, where as Spike, although would change everything Evil Vamp Spike did in a heartbeat, doesn't dwell because he can differentiate between the two.

Spike knows he has nothing to seek redemption for.

I think my biggest problem with Spike or Darla already shanshuing is because it wasn't dealt with in the show, it was still being fought over who would get it and if Spike or Darla had shanshued the writers would have made it clear thats what had happened.