That's true, I can't believe I didn't add that in, and yea that's what i was thinking originally that it was voluntary but Joss played that mind game with us for a bit that made it look like it was the bloody chip he wanted out instead of his soul returned to him. Even when his soul was restored I couldn't tell exactly what had happened 'till his eyes lit up and I was like "Oh duh" smack in the face moment lol. And yes, Angel had to fight the entire time even after he signed the ShanShu prophecy to keep his soul so that he could continue to fight the battle, and be the Champion.
Shanshu, who?
- Thread starter Kana
- Start date
thegifting
I think in 3D
I truly have no idea what 90% of you are saying, by way of terrible grammar and confusingly bizzare thoughts, but here are my ideas on what's being discussed-
1. Shanshu is capitalized only if in refrence to the prophecy, or part of a title. If you're talking about the "live/die" meaning, it's lowercase.
2. Spike means nothing in the long haul of existance. Sure, he's a champion, and yes, he's one of the best the world has, but he's going to die as a vampire (unless some crazy retcon/deus ex happens), and go to hell.
3. Darla never shanshu'd, as one person was saying. She may have returned as a human, but her "person" was killed with her vampire, making her no different. We also see her in S4, appearing to be the angel to Cordelia's demon, but that's the PTB getting involved. When she commited suicide, it was with soul, and to save a human. No, she never did anything to deserve redemption, but the point is that it's not earned. Angel wouldn't deserve it either, when it happens- it'd still be a reward, something given in recognition of efforts, but not directly proportionate to said efforts. Angel could live forever and save the world once every day and still not deserve anything.
4. The point of Angel signing the prophecy wasn't to keep his soul, as someone said, but to sacrafice the shanshu he would receive for playing a key role in the apocalypse, by way of being a Black Thorn. That's a McGuffin, though, because Angel doesn't get to decide these things- he's simply playing a role. Not once do I remember, even, it being said that Angel wouldn't recieve human life if he fought against good in the apocalypse.
1. Shanshu is capitalized only if in refrence to the prophecy, or part of a title. If you're talking about the "live/die" meaning, it's lowercase.
2. Spike means nothing in the long haul of existance. Sure, he's a champion, and yes, he's one of the best the world has, but he's going to die as a vampire (unless some crazy retcon/deus ex happens), and go to hell.
3. Darla never shanshu'd, as one person was saying. She may have returned as a human, but her "person" was killed with her vampire, making her no different. We also see her in S4, appearing to be the angel to Cordelia's demon, but that's the PTB getting involved. When she commited suicide, it was with soul, and to save a human. No, she never did anything to deserve redemption, but the point is that it's not earned. Angel wouldn't deserve it either, when it happens- it'd still be a reward, something given in recognition of efforts, but not directly proportionate to said efforts. Angel could live forever and save the world once every day and still not deserve anything.
4. The point of Angel signing the prophecy wasn't to keep his soul, as someone said, but to sacrafice the shanshu he would receive for playing a key role in the apocalypse, by way of being a Black Thorn. That's a McGuffin, though, because Angel doesn't get to decide these things- he's simply playing a role. Not once do I remember, even, it being said that Angel wouldn't recieve human life if he fought against good in the apocalypse.
palabravampiress
I said the thing about Darla. Just to be clear, it was a joke.
::stretches hands out and grabs the good ole resource "Wikipedia"::
Okay I see some of your points there, but here's the reality and here's what the ShanShu Prophecy really is:
The Shanshu Prophecy reveals that a vampire with a soul will play a major role in the Apocalypse (for good or for evil) and receive a reward ("shanshu") for his efforts[1]. The full text of the prophecy has not been revealed.
Translated, "shanshu" means both "to live" and "to die." Wesley interprets the text as meaning that the vampire with a soul will, at the end of his numerous trials, live as human once more.
------
After the prophecy is introduced, its fulfillment becomes Angel's ultimate goal in his quest for redemption. Because the prophecy does not refer to any particular apocalypse, Angel determines that redemption (rather than a scorecard of good deeds) is the key to Shanshu; he must maintain a constant battle against evil, rather than just try to amass a demonic body-count.
-----
Angel's faith in his role wavers in the fifth season. He takes on a more corporate, bureaucratic approach to fighting evil when he takes control of the Los Angeles branch of Wolfram & Hart, and feels disconnected from his mission. Also, his old rival Spike (another vampire with a soul) is resurrected in L.A.; Spike had recently died as a Champion, sacrificing himself to save the world.
------
Two of Angel's enemies, Eve and Lindsey McDonald, take advantage of the situation; Eve convinces Angel and Spike that the existence of two ensouled vampire Champions is interfering with the Shanshu Prophecy and tearing the bonds of reality. She presents them with a falsified translation of the prophecy, leading them to believe that they can only restore the balance of the universe by competing to drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; whoever drinks first will be the one to later become human. Before the hoax is revealed, Spike overpowers Angel and claims the prophesized destiny for himself, proving himself a true contender for Shanshu. Whilst arguing over who the prophecy talked about (Angel or Spike), Spike points out that Angel was cursed with his soul & had no choice in the matter whereas he chose to regain his soul, at which point Angel points out that Spike only did it to get into a girl's pants.
------
Angel later infiltrates the most powerful demon organization in this dimension, the Circle of the Black Thorn, in an attempt to uncover the representatives of the Senior Partners' power in this dimension. They demand a sacrifice from him to prove his loyalty: he is forced to sign away his potential claim to Shanshu, in his own blood, the Circle unable to understand that Angel would do good just for the sake of it rather than for any reward (however, it should be noted that his signature did not resemble his signature from a previous episode). Angel, Spike, and their remaining allies later assassinate each and every member of the Circle, thereby incurring the wrath of the armies of the Senior Partners[2]. As Angel and Spike stand side by side, waiting for the armies to descend, they discuss the Prophecy:
Spike: "What do you think all this means for that Shanshu boogaboo? If we make it through this, does one of us get to be a real boy?"
Angel: "Who are you kiddin'. We're not gonna make it through."
Spike: "Well as long as it's not you."
The series ends as Spike, Angel, Gunn, and Illyria stand alone against the demons and dragons sent by the Senior Partners; the fulfillment of the prophecy remains unresolved.
In the comic book "Angel: After the fall", which is Joss Whedon's canonical season 6, Angel is revealed to be human again. Although it is not yet made clear whether or not this is as a result of the Shanshu prophecy.
----
There you go folks, straight from the source of Wikipedia ...
as Lorne would say "That's all for tonight folks." - Lorne
Okay I see some of your points there, but here's the reality and here's what the ShanShu Prophecy really is:
The Shanshu Prophecy reveals that a vampire with a soul will play a major role in the Apocalypse (for good or for evil) and receive a reward ("shanshu") for his efforts[1]. The full text of the prophecy has not been revealed.
Translated, "shanshu" means both "to live" and "to die." Wesley interprets the text as meaning that the vampire with a soul will, at the end of his numerous trials, live as human once more.
------
After the prophecy is introduced, its fulfillment becomes Angel's ultimate goal in his quest for redemption. Because the prophecy does not refer to any particular apocalypse, Angel determines that redemption (rather than a scorecard of good deeds) is the key to Shanshu; he must maintain a constant battle against evil, rather than just try to amass a demonic body-count.
-----
Angel's faith in his role wavers in the fifth season. He takes on a more corporate, bureaucratic approach to fighting evil when he takes control of the Los Angeles branch of Wolfram & Hart, and feels disconnected from his mission. Also, his old rival Spike (another vampire with a soul) is resurrected in L.A.; Spike had recently died as a Champion, sacrificing himself to save the world.
------
Two of Angel's enemies, Eve and Lindsey McDonald, take advantage of the situation; Eve convinces Angel and Spike that the existence of two ensouled vampire Champions is interfering with the Shanshu Prophecy and tearing the bonds of reality. She presents them with a falsified translation of the prophecy, leading them to believe that they can only restore the balance of the universe by competing to drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; whoever drinks first will be the one to later become human. Before the hoax is revealed, Spike overpowers Angel and claims the prophesized destiny for himself, proving himself a true contender for Shanshu. Whilst arguing over who the prophecy talked about (Angel or Spike), Spike points out that Angel was cursed with his soul & had no choice in the matter whereas he chose to regain his soul, at which point Angel points out that Spike only did it to get into a girl's pants.
------
Angel later infiltrates the most powerful demon organization in this dimension, the Circle of the Black Thorn, in an attempt to uncover the representatives of the Senior Partners' power in this dimension. They demand a sacrifice from him to prove his loyalty: he is forced to sign away his potential claim to Shanshu, in his own blood, the Circle unable to understand that Angel would do good just for the sake of it rather than for any reward (however, it should be noted that his signature did not resemble his signature from a previous episode). Angel, Spike, and their remaining allies later assassinate each and every member of the Circle, thereby incurring the wrath of the armies of the Senior Partners[2]. As Angel and Spike stand side by side, waiting for the armies to descend, they discuss the Prophecy:
Spike: "What do you think all this means for that Shanshu boogaboo? If we make it through this, does one of us get to be a real boy?"
Angel: "Who are you kiddin'. We're not gonna make it through."
Spike: "Well as long as it's not you."
The series ends as Spike, Angel, Gunn, and Illyria stand alone against the demons and dragons sent by the Senior Partners; the fulfillment of the prophecy remains unresolved.
In the comic book "Angel: After the fall", which is Joss Whedon's canonical season 6, Angel is revealed to be human again. Although it is not yet made clear whether or not this is as a result of the Shanshu prophecy.
----
There you go folks, straight from the source of Wikipedia ...
as Lorne would say "That's all for tonight folks." - Lorne
After reading these posts (and skipping a few!!) I would have to say that I agree with what palabravampiress has said. To me her explaination makes perfect sense! I have accepted it and cant think of it any other way now 🙂
What a great thread to read, it really makes ya think hey!?
What a great thread to read, it really makes ya think hey!?
palabravampiress
Thanks, Aussie!
Okay Angelus tried destroying the world because he was Angelus, he didn't change when he had his soul removed from receiving perfect happiness with Buffy. Spike again as Wikipedia so delicately put it, and I agree, went to get his soul to get in a girl's (Buffy's) pants. He proves this after he begins to mysteriously work for Lindsey McDonald claiming to be Doyle and then with Angel when he attempts to leave Los Angeles to go find Buffy and say hey I'm back let's shag. That's what he was expecting. I'll admit at the end of Buffy Season 7 he proved himself when he saved the world... but he did it for Buffy, I'm not a hundred percent sure he did it for anyone else.
In season 3 of Buffy there's an episode that's mostly about Xander and getting his 'new/old' car from his uncle but there's a scene where he goes to the school library to find Buffy and the others for help when he sees that (I think that's the case) they're in the middle of an Apocalypse, Angel's fighting with Buffy. He's been with Buffy since day one with the Master bit... Spike only came in around with his chip that was implanted Season 4... and then received his soul in Season 6 because he'd raped Buffy and wanted her to forgive him and fall in love with him.
Angel had more experience with Apocalypses than Spike... and he had more reasons to settle them and fight for his soul. Spike had made his choice that it was for Buffy and Buffy only, that and Spike hasn't 'died'.. well okay I guess in Season 7 he did... but he came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his vampiric form.
I think Wolfram & Hart did that on purpose, I think they intended for Angel to wear the necklace, so that he would have come back as a ghost and remain at Wolfram & Hart, but then Spike got hold of it because it had to be a Champion ... I can't recall the specifics but I knew Buffy couldn't do it for some reason. So yea, Spike came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his true form.... and was about to give up because of the First, tormenting him of his past, but then he over-came that, with the help of Buffy. So in honesty, I truly think Angel is the one who will end up with it... Spike won't give up though without a fight, that much we all know.
In season 3 of Buffy there's an episode that's mostly about Xander and getting his 'new/old' car from his uncle but there's a scene where he goes to the school library to find Buffy and the others for help when he sees that (I think that's the case) they're in the middle of an Apocalypse, Angel's fighting with Buffy. He's been with Buffy since day one with the Master bit... Spike only came in around with his chip that was implanted Season 4... and then received his soul in Season 6 because he'd raped Buffy and wanted her to forgive him and fall in love with him.
Angel had more experience with Apocalypses than Spike... and he had more reasons to settle them and fight for his soul. Spike had made his choice that it was for Buffy and Buffy only, that and Spike hasn't 'died'.. well okay I guess in Season 7 he did... but he came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his vampiric form.
I think Wolfram & Hart did that on purpose, I think they intended for Angel to wear the necklace, so that he would have come back as a ghost and remain at Wolfram & Hart, but then Spike got hold of it because it had to be a Champion ... I can't recall the specifics but I knew Buffy couldn't do it for some reason. So yea, Spike came back as a ghost, Angel came back in his true form.... and was about to give up because of the First, tormenting him of his past, but then he over-came that, with the help of Buffy. So in honesty, I truly think Angel is the one who will end up with it... Spike won't give up though without a fight, that much we all know.
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
I don't read too much into "Destiny" the whole "Translation" was a hoax and what baffles me is the fatc that they; Angel and Spike just had to find this "cup" and drink from it! how easy would that be if that Were the prophesy!
Besides "Shanshu" is an ambigious word, could mean that in the events that have happend like Angel giving his humanity up for the greater good in IWRY and signing it away in NFA that Conner is his Shanshu his humanity and redemption, Conner's effect on Darla gave her redemption, her sacrifice for his life her abilty to have a soul through his, and Angel having something to love and fight for, apart from his mission and have a champion to train to put something good back into the world etc.
Redemption isn't being human it's forgivness for wrongs that were done that the person doesn't deserve to have, "Shanshu" could also be a result of that after the forgivness has been mesched out.
Besides "Shanshu" is an ambigious word, could mean that in the events that have happend like Angel giving his humanity up for the greater good in IWRY and signing it away in NFA that Conner is his Shanshu his humanity and redemption, Conner's effect on Darla gave her redemption, her sacrifice for his life her abilty to have a soul through his, and Angel having something to love and fight for, apart from his mission and have a champion to train to put something good back into the world etc.
Redemption isn't being human it's forgivness for wrongs that were done that the person doesn't deserve to have, "Shanshu" could also be a result of that after the forgivness has been mesched out.
palabravampiress
Connor as the Shan Shu prophecy is an interesting theory.
Connor was not the ShanShu prophecy, that was deciphered in Season 5 when Sarjhan (sorry if it's misspelled) was released in "Origin" and Connor was the one who was supposed to defeat him. Sarjhan had mentioned the whole prophecy was a fake, just a way to get some fun since he couldn't do the actual damage himself. Connor can't be the ShanShu, Jasmine used that against the team in Season 4 when she told how she came to be in existence, that because of the link Lorne gave to Angel to go to the trial for Darla to save her, that Connor was their gift, since he couldn't save Darla as she'd already been brought back from the dead once.
Angel has 'died' once, and was brought back in his vampiric form, Darla was brought back as a human and turned again by Drusilla before Connor was born, and then Connor was born with Darla and Angel, both coming back from the dead.... Angel with a soul, and Darla without one, but with the passion she'd held for centuries and briefly containing a soul before being turned again.
Spike died once with the necklace given to Angel by Wolfram & Hart, and was brought back with his soul. When Angel came back, it wasn't certain that he still had his soul as he showed beastly intentions unless it came to Buffy which he saved.
Connor was not the ShanShu gift. ShanShu is to live or die, it means both, Angel has done both, and Spike has done both, it is a trial of redemption in the end that will determine who receives the ShanShu. Angel has signed the prophecy in its original form with his blood, now whether or not that eliminates his receiving the ShanShu whatever it may be in the end. Now as he keeps fighting anyways, he still seems to have a chance at receiving SOMETHING as atonement for what he's been through.
Spike only keeps fighting in hopes that A: Angel doesn't receive the ShanShu and become a human again, and B: so that he can win Buffy back and win over all against Angel.
Spike has his good qualities though, as he saved that infant in the end, I do believe he has learned to become a better being, with his soul. He didn't go through the same steps that Angel went through the first time around when he was given his soul. Angel was meant to suffer, Spike suffered too but not the same way... well not quite anyways.
Angel has 'died' once, and was brought back in his vampiric form, Darla was brought back as a human and turned again by Drusilla before Connor was born, and then Connor was born with Darla and Angel, both coming back from the dead.... Angel with a soul, and Darla without one, but with the passion she'd held for centuries and briefly containing a soul before being turned again.
Spike died once with the necklace given to Angel by Wolfram & Hart, and was brought back with his soul. When Angel came back, it wasn't certain that he still had his soul as he showed beastly intentions unless it came to Buffy which he saved.
Connor was not the ShanShu gift. ShanShu is to live or die, it means both, Angel has done both, and Spike has done both, it is a trial of redemption in the end that will determine who receives the ShanShu. Angel has signed the prophecy in its original form with his blood, now whether or not that eliminates his receiving the ShanShu whatever it may be in the end. Now as he keeps fighting anyways, he still seems to have a chance at receiving SOMETHING as atonement for what he's been through.
Spike only keeps fighting in hopes that A: Angel doesn't receive the ShanShu and become a human again, and B: so that he can win Buffy back and win over all against Angel.
Spike has his good qualities though, as he saved that infant in the end, I do believe he has learned to become a better being, with his soul. He didn't go through the same steps that Angel went through the first time around when he was given his soul. Angel was meant to suffer, Spike suffered too but not the same way... well not quite anyways.
A
Angel's vision
your confusing the father will kill the son fake prophesy in the first line, with the shanshu, and besides i haven't a problem with your theory, i like it, I was just thinking that maybe th e writers may pull a twist
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
I completly agree i meanto be honest i am a major spike fan i am always wanting spike to get the glory when it's deserved but......
now i think this is gonna shock a lotta people on here that know me
But i don't want spike to get the shanshu
Now i do think he deserves it in ever way possible i think he's earned it completly but here's a few reasons i think he shouldn't get it
1)
It would kill him not to be a be to fight demons anymore or protect the people he cares about.
Spike loves the viloence and mayhem he always has and probably always will
2)
If he did get buffy and my god i am praying one day he will (hehe)
let me just point this out
HUMAN BOYS DON'T WORK OUT WITH BUFFY!!!!
it's simple they can't deal with buffy's slayerness
3)
spike already enjoys things he would when human
Food
Alcohol
Hot chocolate with tiny marshmellows
and a big one
Love
(you have no idea how hard it was not to put sex in that list hehe)
4)
and this may seem like a lame reason but it has to be meantion
The vampire thing is extremly extremly sexy
i could go on all day about reasons but i gotta go watch buffy so that's it
for now
LadyLavinia
Scooby
Why in the hell was it so important that Spike or Angel be recognized as champions? Why in the hell are champions needed in the first place? Does the idea of a empowered individual saving people left and right so appealing, instead of learning how to save or take care of oneself?
This is something that's gone on since Angel first arrived on Buffy back in Season 1. Giles even considered Angel to be a champion ... someone to help the helpless (no pun intended). The point of this was to have heroes for the side of good, Buffy is a Champion for the Powers That Be. The ultimate fight is against the Senior Partners, and the ancient demons of the earth.
And thank you Angel's Visions for your previous comment.
The Powers That Be have chosen their champions, and two of them are in the run for the ShanShu, that we're aware of: Angel and Spike. Unless the writers go nuts and throw in some big twist. It's a show about fighting for what we believe in and the rewards that we may or may not benefit from the actions we've made.
And thank you Angel's Visions for your previous comment.
The Powers That Be have chosen their champions, and two of them are in the run for the ShanShu, that we're aware of: Angel and Spike. Unless the writers go nuts and throw in some big twist. It's a show about fighting for what we believe in and the rewards that we may or may not benefit from the actions we've made.
Kana
Soulless human
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,305
Ok, wow, I really don't even know where to start. There have already been some fantastic contributions to the thread. Many interesting theories are cropping up and really pushing the thread foward.
Not to be too discriminating but I'll pick a few replies that caught my interest (well they all caught my interest but I unfortunately cannot reply to everyone) to discuss them.
Ok I've actually addressed some of these points on the first page of this thread.
This was in regards to common arguments about the Shanshu Prophecy.
Existence and the meaning of it: Should I even go there? What I don't know is how I'd determine who does the judging in the Verse or even if they I'd agree with whatever their credo may be. To state that objectively Spike means nothing in the grand scheme of existence requires at least some form of justification in my opinion but if you didn't find him significant that's fair enough.
This is sort of a follow on from the last part but deserving is murky. If we believe Angel when talking to Faith in Sanctuary, they will never make up for all the damage they have caused.
Darla indeed was never mentioned to have been shansh'd however until we find a definitive translation for Shanshu (other than Wesley's interpretation then it becomes difficult. As a general point (and a point to which people have already alluded) living and dying in a vampire's case is ambiguous at best.
More or less what I've quoted earlier on (see above).
Ah yes IWRY. While Angel is pretty locked in evil fighting mode, it doesn't mean that he wasn't freaked by what the oracles said about her death. It's a matter of opinion if Angel was completely about his ego. He clearly wants to be a soilder fighting the apocalyspe and the argeuments he gave were sound enough to stand up regardless of whether a part of it was due to his ego. The Oracles imply (although you can never tell with those guys) that what happened had nothing to do with the PTBs in that he didn't earn it by saving humanity (and we'll come back to that later) but it was merely an accident. I can believe that Angel would want to be granted humanity as a reward and we can see this from his attitude about the Gem of Amara. He wants to earn his humanity the hard way. The Shanshu, as he understood it originally anyway, would be a great way for that to happen.
More later gtg.
Not to be too discriminating but I'll pick a few replies that caught my interest (well they all caught my interest but I unfortunately cannot reply to everyone) to discuss them.
Ok I've actually addressed some of these points on the first page of this thread.
This was in regards to common arguments about the Shanshu Prophecy.
Existence and the meaning of it: Should I even go there? What I don't know is how I'd determine who does the judging in the Verse or even if they I'd agree with whatever their credo may be. To state that objectively Spike means nothing in the grand scheme of existence requires at least some form of justification in my opinion but if you didn't find him significant that's fair enough.
This is sort of a follow on from the last part but deserving is murky. If we believe Angel when talking to Faith in Sanctuary, they will never make up for all the damage they have caused.
Darla indeed was never mentioned to have been shansh'd however until we find a definitive translation for Shanshu (other than Wesley's interpretation then it becomes difficult. As a general point (and a point to which people have already alluded) living and dying in a vampire's case is ambiguous at best.
More or less what I've quoted earlier on (see above).
Ah yes IWRY. While Angel is pretty locked in evil fighting mode, it doesn't mean that he wasn't freaked by what the oracles said about her death. It's a matter of opinion if Angel was completely about his ego. He clearly wants to be a soilder fighting the apocalyspe and the argeuments he gave were sound enough to stand up regardless of whether a part of it was due to his ego. The Oracles imply (although you can never tell with those guys) that what happened had nothing to do with the PTBs in that he didn't earn it by saving humanity (and we'll come back to that later) but it was merely an accident. I can believe that Angel would want to be granted humanity as a reward and we can see this from his attitude about the Gem of Amara. He wants to earn his humanity the hard way. The Shanshu, as he understood it originally anyway, would be a great way for that to happen.
More later gtg.
T
thegifting
As far as things told to us, Spike has never been given a destiny or arc of any sort. I don't find him to be insignificant to existance, but he's not a major player in my eyes, or mind.
J
JCC
Guest
Angel fights 'the good fight' partly because he knows it's right, but also partly because he wants to feel better about himself because of the horrible things he did in his past.
Spike doesn't have that selfish notion of self-satisfaction. He just wants to do what's right.
So while the prophecy may be about Angel, I think Spike deserves it more.
Spike doesn't have that selfish notion of self-satisfaction. He just wants to do what's right.
So while the prophecy may be about Angel, I think Spike deserves it more.
white avenger
white avenger
As much of a Spike fan as I am, and as much as I agree with you that he deserves any award for his attempts at redemption far more than Angel EVER will, Spike began fighting "for the good guys," only after he found that his chip didn't work on demons or vampires. The warrior in Spike craved action. It's as simple as that. He didn't start "doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do," until after he realized that he had romantic feelings for Buffy.
The point of the ShanShu Prophecy is to determine who deserves the reward and for what reason, did they go for the all because they wanted to get in a Slayer's pants, or did they go for it to gain a balance of recognition with the two of them and the Powers That Be? You have to look at it that way to get the full meaning of the ShanShu Prophecy. It is a collection to be accepted at the end of the final trials of the Apocalypse, which wasn't even defined by Wesley or the Angel crew at all in the previous seasons. There's no real hint that it's been decided that the new fight appearing at the end of Season 5 is the final fight, they just know that it is the biggest one they've seen and may not survive... but both are going for the all.
I think in a way as much as I hate to say it that Angel is going at it not just for himself, and the recognition to receive redemption by the Powers That Be, but as a way to become closer to Buffy, to feel human again. I also think in a weird way, that if it came down to it, he'd let Spike take the ShanShu that was offered, if there was no other real way for him to gain it since he had signed the prophecy, I think he'd rather it be Spike than anyone else that could make Buffy happy if he became human at the end of the Apocalypse, should they all survive... and vise versa with Spike if it was the other way around.
I think in a way as much as I hate to say it that Angel is going at it not just for himself, and the recognition to receive redemption by the Powers That Be, but as a way to become closer to Buffy, to feel human again. I also think in a weird way, that if it came down to it, he'd let Spike take the ShanShu that was offered, if there was no other real way for him to gain it since he had signed the prophecy, I think he'd rather it be Spike than anyone else that could make Buffy happy if he became human at the end of the Apocalypse, should they all survive... and vise versa with Spike if it was the other way around.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
I think I know what you're saying, Lorne. Angel and Spike, to me, seem a lot like brothers. As much as they annoy each other, (and that's a LOT) I think they also respect, understand, and even love each other just as much. I think that if it couldn't be him, Angel would want Spike to Shanshu, because as much as Angel might hate to admit it, Spike is probably the only other person in the world to have given it his all and gone neck and neck with Angel every step of the way. I think if it couldn't be him, Spike would want Angel to Shanshu for the same reason. It's the worthy adversary thing. They've spent so long competing with one another that, if someone else won it, I think they'd both feel like they'd been robbed of something.
Also, I think whichever one ultimately lost between the two would feel a little niggling sense of pride mixed with their disappointment. Angel would be all older brothery and be like, "I taught him that. I was his Yoda. Well I was!" Spike would be like, "Well, I let him have it. I did. I don't need any sodding prophecy. He's Destiny Boy. I'll just go and make my own destiny. That's what I'll do. You see if I don't turn up all Shanshu fresh, myself, in a couple of years." And he'd do it, too. lol. Spike would be proud of Angel - and he'd also probably look forward to figuring out how to best him. They love each other, really. If it went to some ensouled vamp half a world away, I think they'd go out drinking (booze, that is) and console each other and say, "You deserved it more!" "No, you did!" Actually... that would be a funny scene. I kinda wanna watch that scene. lol.
Also, I think whichever one ultimately lost between the two would feel a little niggling sense of pride mixed with their disappointment. Angel would be all older brothery and be like, "I taught him that. I was his Yoda. Well I was!" Spike would be like, "Well, I let him have it. I did. I don't need any sodding prophecy. He's Destiny Boy. I'll just go and make my own destiny. That's what I'll do. You see if I don't turn up all Shanshu fresh, myself, in a couple of years." And he'd do it, too. lol. Spike would be proud of Angel - and he'd also probably look forward to figuring out how to best him. They love each other, really. If it went to some ensouled vamp half a world away, I think they'd go out drinking (booze, that is) and console each other and say, "You deserved it more!" "No, you did!" Actually... that would be a funny scene. I kinda wanna watch that scene. lol.
B
Blondie Bear
[No message]
LOL that would be hysterical, I am gonna have to find a way to draw that one out and scan it in the fan art section. That's too funny, I can so picture them doing that in a comic scene or something, Angel pouring Spike a drink or vice versa be like "Should we beat him to a bloody pulp? We're still vampires after all... he ShanShu'd, he's human now." LOL oh lordy I have to find out how to draw that now! 😀
palabravampiress
If you do, can you make it a banner and can I have it? :-)
Wow lets name all the things wrong with this 😉
I think this was disproved when Angel thought he signed away his chances of becoming human and getting ultimate redemption. He pretty much handed it to Spike because there were bigger things on the table, and I'd say that's the opposite of being selfish, or thinking about the good consequences for yourself.
Also as WA states Spike didn't just start fighting on the side of good, simply to do good. He got a soul for Buffy, not to be a champion. He wanted to be with Buffy.. although I guess they played this originally with Angel as well.
Anyway I'm a big Spike and Angel fan, but feel Angel deserves it.. at least first because he's been doing the champion angle longer, on his own, and for selfless reasons. Spike becoming human would feel like someone rudely cut in line to me... just doesn't feel fair. Not saying Spike doesn't deserve a reward eventually.. but I'm still interested in his character being a vampire I guess.
Pity we can't really discuss what's going on in ATF. 😉
J
JCC
Guest
That's the same logic as saying that if someone works for a charity organization to hit on a girl there and ends up saving lives and eventually abandons the girl, they've not done anything good.
Angel didn't do good to do good, Angel did good because a soul was forced onto him. While that doesn't demerit what he does, it wasn't a choice for him.
Also, Angel really only started doing good when he met Whistler, not long before he met Buffy, so saying 'Angel was a champion for like, three more years!' seems a bit pedantic.
thegifting
I think in 3D
What's pedantic is the assumption that a person is forced to do good deeds because they have a soul, only to turn around and point out the flaw in your own logic, as he'd only been a champion for 3 years out of over a hundred. It wasn't a choice? Oh, but it was, but it is.
While Angel may not have been a fulltime 'hero' type before Whistler, he did a fair share of good on his own accord, in between all the grey.
There's a correction to be made, Angel started doing some good way before he met Buffy or Whistler. If you recall on Angel during his flashbacks, he helped a girl back in the 20s or 30s to save her dog, and then again during World War II he went on the submarine though he didn't have too many choices but still, he did it, to help save the crew that would be sinking at the bottom of the ocean or something like that. Angel did despise the fact of course that he had a soul, but eventually he began to welcome it and more so when he met Buffy, he was grateful to have it. Spike did it purely to get in with Buffy, so she would see he's worth something, not just a tool for war.