Shipping Wars...Shipping Wars Never Change

Nikkolas

Glory/Dawn Shipper.......
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
237
Age
37
Location
Fort Worth, TX
I've been active in various fandoms for going on 20 years now. I was a shipper when I was a teen, when I was in my 20s, and I still am now at 33.

But time has a way of mellowing you out on certain things. I don't know if any of you maybe grew up with other popular romances at the same time as Buffy and Angel but I loved the anime Inuyasha. There, the main rivalry was between Inuyasha/Kagome vs Inuyasha/Kikyo. If you liked one of the girls, you were obligated to hate the other. It was silly kids stuff and nobody takes it seriously after all these years. I can easily admit, despite my InuKag preferences, that Kikyo was a great character.

The Buffy fandom on the other hand seems to have largely missed the memo. Bangel vs. Spuffy - and your absolute allegiance to one over the other - is still prominent after 25 years. I'm sure some people here are older than me or were active in the fandom longer than me so maybe things have chilled out since BBS discussions in the early 2000s but there is still a lot more friction in this fandom than in others I have ben a part of for an extended period.
 
It's not just Bangel and Spuffy. I see it two other fandoms I'm part of despite both of them being older than Buffy the vampire slayer. Honestly both of those are even more ridiculous since they are 'kids' shows and have definitive resolutions
 
I have favorite pairings but i think shopping wars are idiotic. Particularly since I genuinely love most of the main characters of Buffy AND Angel the series and many of the secondary ones. In fic, the best pairings are the ones you can make the best story/argument for. I have read fic for pairings that never even occurred to me and loved them.

Other than fic that ships *any* incest or a child (or very naive) character(s) (yes, that includes Connor/Cordy (retches repeatedly)) I can enjoy most well written fic.
 
I picture shipping wars like going to a restaurant with a bunch of people where each person orders something different from the menu. If I order chicken and someone else orders beef, I could get into an argument that says:

"Why did you pick beef? Only people who want more cholesterol would pick beef and nobody needs more cholesterol. Red meat is bad for you! You should renounce your evil ways and eschew (not chew) all red meat. Do you realize the environmental impact of raining cows? The methane alone is bad for the planet! You should repent your evil ways and join us chicken-eaters."

And if there is a vegetarian in the crowd, it could get even more strident:

"How can you eat God's creatures? Animals have feelings, too. How would you like it if you fell a little lower on the food chain and had animals after you because you taste good?"

Shipping is the same sort of thing. Romances in stories are there to serve the story. A romance is judged by how well it serves the story. A slayer in love with a vampire? That definitely is there for the impact it has on the characters and how it forces the story to change. You get to see other characters' reactions to the pairing and that becomes part of their character reveal as well. There are people in real life who get married and I can say (to myself), "That is a big mistake" or "They should be good for each other", but I am not invested in their problems. In the same way, fictional characters get together and I can think that they either should or shouldn't be together but I am not invested in the romance - just the direction this is going to lead the plot and the other relationships in the story. You get Giles nonplussed about Angel and Buffy being together and Faith asking, "What's it like boinking the undead?" and this reveals something about their characters due to the ripple effect it has on other people in the story. And it drives the plot in many ways.

The romances that are shown do not feature any of the friction between two people and what they do together. What if one is an outdoors character and the other is a couch potato? What if one blows money on things the other thinks are useless? What if one wants sex every day and the other doesn't want it more than once a month? The romances in Buffy never get to the point where we see if they are actually compatible in the aspects of living together.

But other than what it does for the story, I have no real interest in who hooks up with whom.
 
I picture shipping wars like going to a restaurant with a bunch of people where each person orders something different from the menu. If I order chicken and someone else orders beef, I could get into an argument that says:

"Why did you pick beef? Only people who want more cholesterol would pick beef and nobody needs more cholesterol. Red meat is bad for you! You should renounce your evil ways and eschew (not chew) all red meat. Do you realize the environmental impact of raining cows? The methane alone is bad for the planet! You should repent your evil ways and join us chicken-eaters."

And if there is a vegetarian in the crowd, it could get even more strident:

"How can you eat God's creatures? Animals have feelings, too. How would you like it if you fell a little lower on the food chain and had animals after you because you taste good?"

Shipping is the same sort of thing. Romances in stories are there to serve the story. A romance is judged by how well it serves the story. A slayer in love with a vampire? That definitely is there for the impact it has on the characters and how it forces the story to change. You get to see other characters' reactions to the pairing and that becomes part of their character reveal as well. There are people in real life who get married and I can say (to myself), "That is a big mistake" or "They should be good for each other", but I am not invested in their problems. In the same way, fictional characters get together and I can think that they either should or shouldn't be together but I am not invested in the romance - just the direction this is going to lead the plot and the other relationships in the story. You get Giles nonplussed about Angel and Buffy being together and Faith asking, "What's it like boinking the undead?" and this reveals something about their characters due to the ripple effect it has on other people in the story. And it drives the plot in many ways.

The romances that are shown do not feature any of the friction between two people and what they do together. What if one is an outdoors character and the other is a couch potato? What if one blows money on things the other thinks are useless? What if one wants sex every day and the other doesn't want it more than once a month? The romances in Buffy never get to the point where we see if they are actually compatible in the aspects of living together.

But other than what it does for the story, I have no real interest in who hooks up with whom.
I so love this!

I tell people (mostly those I beta for) that I believe sex scenes should SERVE the narrative rather than just the libido -- and I think the same is true for relationships - they should serve the story, not drive it. I like great writing! I think when one writes (or reads) fiction, or when we watch a TV show or movie, the interactions of people with each other is a major part of what makes the narrative interesting. It may give us a 'charge' when we see the 'one true pairing' or the 'hot sexxx' but unless it serves something deeper, it really is just a blip in the story. In the series, the relationships -- all of them, not just the partnerships (not the soap opera, but the deeper ways the characters affect each other) -- are a large part of what makes Buffy worth watching 25 years on. If it were just about the monster of the week or the hot (in teenage terms) sexual content, no one would be watching it now.

There were so many shows on the air back then that were bigger 'hits' but many of them have been forgotten.

Some of them had 'smoldering' hot kisses and in some cases more... But Buffy has rich characters, who have complicated interactions and who make difficult choices and who grow and change and challenge each other... and that makes Buffy never bore me. I see new things in the characters as I go through different parts of my life... because Buffy feels realer than much of what I've seen on screen before or since.

I am not saying that hot sex is not fun or that partner chemistry doesn't matter... I'm saying it needs to be part of a whole and whatever its flaws, Buffy always succeeds at this!

I'm also saying that 'the perfect partnership' -- that romantic ideal where people find ONE person that is the 'only one' is not consistent with reality. Yes, there are better and worse pairings and I think most of us find we relate more to some than others... but i don't get the enmity or the ENMESHMENT with pairings and WORSE -- the enmeshment with OTHER PEOPLE'S choices. I'm a 'spuffy' but even though 'bangel' doesn't resonate with me, I don't hate the idea or hate people who love the idea. In my fic, I have written Buffy (and others) with all sorts of partners (I write mostly crossovers, so my pairing choices are almost limitless, and I LOVE trying to see how Buffy characters can resonate with different characters from different universes).

I think that if you're writing fic, and you give the reader a real and deep insight into the pairing that you see (not just rah rah rah fanwank) -- you can actually make the oddest pairings 'spark' and even 'pop' off the page.

The world is made of variety. The world is BEST when there is variety. Even genetics shows this. The more 'out-bred' we are, the healthier we tend to be. So called 'mongrels' rock!

If we all loved the same person or were the same person and had the same tastes, the world would be a very boring place.

When we get locked into 'one way or the highway' that RIGIDITY BECOMES TOXIC. Wherever I see extreme rigidity, I see a BRITTLE community, subject to division and even disintegration. In society, when we embrace that kind of divisive thinking we get BIGOTRY.

Yes, I said it. I think that shipping wars are a form of bigotry.

***PLEASE NOTE***: I don't think loving one or another pairing is bigotry... but i think the whole 'i hate __________' and I think you are stupid if you love ______' THAT is bigoted.

Hating someone for their personal taste is stupid whether it is fandom or food or anything else. That is up there with hating someone for loving someone we 'don't think they should love'... Oh yeah, we have been so good at that in society too... and it has never gotten us anywhere good. It has hurt many, many good people. Love is love.

The rage that attaches to defending one's one true pairing is just idiotic and puerile.

I think after 25 years, our community is small (though it still manages to add people to it) and we need to embrace people who love Buffy and company, rather than balkanizing into armed camps of various pairings. Let us let go of the ferocious defense of ANY camp. It's great that we love and have passion for Buffy and we all have favorites... just...

I think it's time and past time to let go of hostilities over those choices.

Buffy is big enough for all our ships and all our non-ships. Welcome to Buffy-love!


_____



Blue's opinion on sex writing: BLUES RULES FOR WRITING SEX...
 
I've never shipped Spuffy. I believe those who do care more about Spike's happiness than they do Buffy's. People have made excuses for his behaviour throughout the series but no amount of "he's funny/interesting" changes the fact that he's a sick twisted stalker who had tried to rape Buffy. SMG also didn't like Spuffy. She disliked it so much that she had asked for a Buff/Xander romance in season 7 instead but was turned down. I prefer love interests like Angel and Riley.
 
I've never shipped Spuffy. I believe those who do care more about Spike's happiness than they do Buffy's. People have made excuses for his behaviour throughout the series but no amount of "he's funny/interesting" changes the fact that he's a sick twisted stalker who had tried to rape Buffy. SMG also didn't like Spuffy. She disliked it so much that she had asked for a Buff/Xander romance in season 7 instead but was turned down. I prefer love interests like Angel and Riley.
Sarah is a person with an opinion - no more or less and I need citations for her advocating for Bander. Also it's the kind of my ship's better than yours, your ship sucks attitude we're criticising here? I am not condoning what happened to Buffy but it's not as simple as you're presenting it. Buffy was guilty of bad behaviour in season six and because she was a mess she sent out some very mixed signals and also this sick stalker did let a hell god beat seven shades of shit out of him and go through trials that were difficult, painful and dangerous to become a better person. Now you can disagree with that, despite the fact the writers have stated that to be the case, or you can say it wasn't good enough but a blanket statement like no getting around is disingenuous and frankly insulting to those who don't agree.
 
I've never shipped Spuffy. I believe those who do care more about Spike's happiness than they do Buffy's. People have made excuses for his behaviour throughout the series but no amount of "he's funny/interesting" changes the fact that he's a sick twisted stalker who had tried to rape Buffy. SMG also didn't like Spuffy. She disliked it so much that she had asked for a Buff/Xander romance in season 7 instead but was turned down. I prefer love interests like Angel and Riley.
Angel's a sick, twisted stalker too and he had a soul the whole time.

Angel started stalking Buffy over a year before she even knew he existed, and he said himself that he was already in love with her at the time. Watching her pining over boys for the school dance and eating candy, watching her fight in the grave yard, creepily peering into her bedroom window while her parents fought, moving to Sunnydale because he knew the 15 year old girl he was in love with was going to move there, skulking around in the shadows following her until she LITERALLY calls him a stalker....

He's a 240-something year old that stalked and groomed a child even though he literally says a dozen times throughout the series that she's a kid and he's not.

Can you even imagine what that would feel like? To find out that your romantic partner stalked you around the country for a year and didn't choose to reveal that until AFTER you gave up your virginity to them and then they went insane and murdered several of your friends for a bit?

Buffy exclusively gets paired with scumbags on the show. No exceptions. This is exactly the problem with shippers. They only absorb information that supports their chosen relationship. How one can be mad at Spike for being a stalker but not Angel is baffling to me. They're both creeps of the highest order.
 
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D
Dora
I thought the powers that be via Whistler asked him to watch over her
I don't like to engage in ship wars anymore because it's just tiring, but I think by the end the show was valuing romance for Buffy particularly above all else so I don't think fans are entirely to blame for caring so much about that when it comes to Buffy when that was given so much attention on the show.
I wish it wasn't like that because the romances should have only ever been used to develop Buffy, it should have been cookie dough energy the whole time but it really wasn't. That speech was just slapped on at the end.
 
BUFFY IS NOT A MANPRIZE.

Shipping wars over her tend to forget that. I want Buffy happy, joyful and at peace with herself.

I think romance can be part of this, but wilfully pretzeling her into the ship of the fanatics' choice often turns Buffy into someone's manprize. It diminishes her AND the relationship.

Either vampire, (Angel OR Spike) by their nature is capable of serious ugly and since both are old, have long histories as "worst of the worst". Both also did immense good AND HELPED AND/OR SINGLEHANDELY saved THE PLANET.

So... Demonize away - you are right -- both are terrible demons - but do tell the whole story - both - in large measure BECAUSE of Buffy became their best (and often utterly sacrificial) selves.

You are allowed to like one more, but if you tell the whole truth, you must also stipulate that both are heroes.

Finally, Buffy is a wonderful and heroic character, but she is also someone who beat a partner within a hair of his life - she beat him in ways we have NEVER seen any male hero (or other female hero either) do to a partner or former partner - and she did it without provocation and to someone who waa trying to SAVE HER LIFE.

That is the behaviour of an abuser. So don't cast Buffy as a pure saint or pretend that event did not suborn violence and a lack of moral compass in Spike - someone who depended on Buffy for example and judgment.

I dont blame her for Spike's behaviour, but we cannot pretend it would not influence his frame of reference for behaviour. He literally had no human capacity for moral choice until his soul. Yet he did immense good even before that.
 
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I've never shipped Spuffy. I believe those who do care more about Spike's happiness than they do Buffy's. People have made excuses for his behaviour throughout the series but no amount of "he's funny/interesting" changes the fact that he's a sick twisted stalker who had tried to rape Buffy. SMG also didn't like Spuffy. She disliked it so much that she had asked for a Buff/Xander romance in season 7 instead but was turned down. I prefer love interests like Angel and Riley.
How exactly could you possibly know this? Answer: you cannot.

Sorry, you don't get to state categorically what is in the mind of anyone who ships either Spike or Angel (or even Xander or Riley) with Buffy, particularly not to impugn them in a way that is extremely insulting. That's assuming facts not in evidence. You're not in anyone's head but your own. If you demean people who make a fan choice other than yours, that is behaviorally a bigoted act (regardless of your feeling or motive, which is beyond my scope to determine).

You are entitled not to ship them or to ship them. You are entitled to HATE the ship, but you're not entitled to decide that someone's choice that is different from yours makes them uncaring about either Buffy OR Spike (or anyone else you might ship).

You don't know what is in anyone's head but your own.

Just because YOU don't like a pairing that doesn't mean you are right and that other people are wrong. You don't get to determine or define their motives.

I have not heard that SMG did not like Spuffy, but whether she did or did not is entirely irrelevant. If she likes David or James or likes or hates a particular pairing, that's her prerogative as a person and as a fan JUST LIKE ANY OF US, but it doesn't have any bearing on the validity of your argument or the JUDGEMENTS you're making about people you've never met.

Many actors play characters they don't like and act opposite actors they don't like or aren't attracted to. That is why it's called ACTING. It is a job.

Many people in fandom like people we don't like. The fact that others see different things in fandom is part of what makes fandoms interesting. The kind of statement you've made above... derogatory of others because they don't behave or BELIEVE what you do... THAT is why shipping wars are so destructive and so toxic.

You don't like Spuffy. That's clear. Some love Spuffy. That's clear. There's probably even a few people out there who like Buffy and Andrew together... Maybe even some who like Buffy and Snyder or Buffy and the Master... These pairings seem like oogie choices to me, but this doesn't make the fans of such a pairing uncaring or terrible people. We like what we like and we do so for a variety of reasons. To each his or her own.
 
I have my opinions about ships, and I'm fine with people shipping whoever they want, even if I personally don't agree with it/prefer it.

I can say that at least even when things have gotten somewhat heated on here regarding ships, most peoples' responses are rather well thought out and give definitive reasons/thoughts for why they support certain ships.

But you are right. As someone who has been a part of other fandoms like Teen Wolf and Supernatural, I can assure you that shipping wars will never change and can be some of the most toxic parts of any fandom. Maybe I'm a little late to the game here, but holy hell have I dealt with some really toxic people all because they hardcore shipped Destiel, Sterek, Stydia, and so on.
 
For me this issue depends on what exactly is at stake in someone's attachment to a ship. Five people can have the same ship but for very different reasons. Occasionally a ship is superficial or merely on the surface of things, but more often people's ships signal a larger commitment that raises the stakes. Some Spuffy shippers for example use their favorite ship as an elaborate justification for Spike's behavior with a soul, and their particular orientation toward their favorite ship then commits them to certain positions on the nature of a soul in Btvs world for example. I think this is why shipping wars can get more personal; someone's ship can potentially say a great deal more about their moral or philosophical positions both in and outside of the show. Why and how? In general our positions on topics are interrelated. We don't just hold opinions isolated from one another, but instead our positions are part of a web of relations that all suggest each other and are the individual parts that when taken together form a larger, coherent and general worldview, a general bird's eye view orientation. Attacking a ship can often result in someone feeling something deeply personal about themselves has been attacked too, and for good reason. Most of the time more is at stake in an isolated topic than just the topic itself.
 
There is no justification for Buffy beating Spike to a pulp. It was horrific to see and that Spike just let her. Awful stuff. She should not be using Spike as a punching bag to exercise her demons within herself. The only I would say is that in that moment she got a stark reality of who she was sleeping with. Spike albeit trying to help Buffy treated Katerina as just another body, dumped he body like a piece of meat. It really highlights his soulless state and then he proceeded to call Buffy his girl she just snapped. It is however one of the worst things Buffy did though not very hero like. Pure abuse.
BUFFY IS NOT A MANPRIZE.

Shipping wars over her tend to forget that. I want Buffy happy, joyful and at peace with herself.

I think romance can be part of this, but wilfully pretzeling her into the ship of the fanatics' choice often turns Buffy into someone's manprize. It diminishes her AND the relationship.

Either vampire, (Angel OR Spike) by their nature is capable of serious ugly and since both are old, have long histories as "worst of the worst". Both also did immense good AND HELPED AND/OR SINGLEHANDELY saved THE PLANET.

So... Demonize away - you are right -- both are terrible demons - but do tell the whole story - both - in large measure BECAUSE of Buffy became their best (and often utterly sacrificial) selves.

You are allowed to like one more, but if you tell the whole truth, you must also stipulate that both are heroes.

Finally, Buffy is a wonderful and heroic character, but she is also someone who beat a partner within a hair of his life - she beat him in ways we have NEVER seen any male hero (or other female hero either) do to a partner or former partner - and she did it without provocation and to someone who waa trying to SAVE HER LIFE.

That is the behaviour of an abuser. So don't cast Buffy as a pure saint or pretend that event did not suborn violence and a lack of moral compass in Spike - someone who depended on Buffy for example and judgment.

I dont blame her for Spike's behaviour, but we cannot pretend it would not influence his frame of reference for behaviour. He literally had no human capacity for moral choice until his soul. Yet he did immense good even before that.
.
 
D
Dora
She could have staked him it would have saved her from being raped which she would have been if she was not successful in getting him off her , he didn't stop she stopped him
There is no justification for Buffy beating Spike to a pulp. It was horrific to see and that Spike just let her. Awful stuff. She should not be using Spike as a punching bag to exercise her demons within herself. The only I would say is that in that moment she got a stark reality of who she was sleeping with. Spike albeit trying to help Buffy treated Katerina as just another body, dumped he body like a piece of meat. It really highlights his soulless state and then he proceeded to call Buffy his girl she just snapped. It is however one of the worst things Buffy did though not very hero like. Pure abuse.

.
I do hope you are not saying that i justified Buffy beating Spike in any way. It was in my opinion, the single most unheroic action she even did, and it was VILE. NO other HERO would have gotten away with it and if it had been a man doing this to a partner, the outcry would have been justifiably huge. For Buffy, who hits like a truck, this goes double. It was a serious failure of the writers and show runners not to flag this as partner abuse of the worst kind.

It was also a mad queen kind of moment. Even if she had a serious break from reality, it should have been addressed.
 
I do hope you are not saying that i justified Buffy beating Spike in any way. It was in my opinion, the single most unheroic action she even did, and it was VILE. NO other HERO would have gotten away with it and if it had been a man doing this to a partner, the outcry would have been justifiably huge. For Buffy, who hits like a truck, this goes double. It was a serious failure of the writers and show runners not to flag this as partner abuse of the worst kind.

It was also a mad queen kind of moment. Even if she had a serious break from reality, it should have been addresse
No I think you misunderstood my comment. I was in no way saying you were trying to justify it. I was simply putting in some context from my own perspective as to what I believe may have triggered it ie the way Spike just treated Katrina like a piece of meat, just another body really highlighted his soulless state to Buffy and who she was sleeping with. Even allowing for this, the beating was still more about herself and I am saying it was not acceptable what Buffy did in case anybody think that I myself thought it was ok
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Thanks! I agree! Yes, Spike definitely showed his lack of human concern. It is why i always felt he needed the soul. Yes, even as someone who likes Spuffy. But ONLY with Spike with human judgement. Otherwise he is interesting, but incapable.
I've never shipped Spuffy. I believe those who do care more about Spike's happiness than they do Buffy's. People have made excuses for his behaviour throughout the series but no amount of "he's funny/interesting" changes the fact that he's a sick twisted stalker who had tried to rape Buffy. SMG also didn't like Spuffy. She disliked it so much that she had asked for a Buff/Xander romance in season 7 instead but was turned down. I prefer love interests like Angel and Riley.

I’m glad you have your own opinions on ships because it is a diverse world and it’s nice to see different opinions! 🙂 That being said, I really disagree with how you started this off and followed it up. Personally my interest in the Spuffy ship is because I like the chemistry of the characters and I think they make for a fun pairing, especially in the comic material.

I don’t like Spuffy because I want to see a “sick twisted stalked who tried to rape Buffy” be happy. I like Spuffy because ensouled Spike atoned for his actions and gave Buffy the person she should have been with in the first place.

I can understand liking or disliking a ship, but there is a big difference between those things and falsely assuming/ascribing things to a group of people because they like something. I like what I like, and I wish that my enjoyment wasn’t painted in such a negative and untrue light. 🙁
 
Antho
Antho
Good comment
How exactly could you possibly know this? Answer: you cannot.

Sorry, you don't get to state categorically what is in the mind of anyone who ships either Spike or Angel (or even Xander or Riley) with Buffy, particularly not to impugn them in a way that is extremely insulting. That's assuming facts not in evidence. You're not in anyone's head but your own. If you demean people who make a fan choice other than yours, that is behaviorally a bigoted act (regardless of your feeling or motive, which is beyond my scope to determine).

You are entitled not to ship them or to ship them. You are entitled to HATE the ship, but you're not entitled to decide that someone's choice that is different from yours makes them uncaring about either Buffy OR Spike (or anyone else you might ship).

You don't know what is in anyone's head but your own.

Just because YOU don't like a pairing that doesn't mean you are right and that other people are wrong. You don't get to determine or define their motives.

I have not heard that SMG did not like Spuffy, but whether she did or did not is entirely irrelevant. If she likes David or James or likes or hates a particular pairing, that's her prerogative as a person and as a fan JUST LIKE ANY OF US, but it doesn't have any bearing on the validity of your argument or the JUDGEMENTS you're making about people you've never met.

Many actors play characters they don't like and act opposite actors they don't like or aren't attracted to. That is why it's called ACTING. It is a job.

Many people in fandom like people we don't like. The fact that others see different things in fandom is part of what makes fandoms interesting. The kind of statement you've made above... derogatory of others because they don't behave or BELIEVE what you do... THAT is why shipping wars are so destructive and so toxic.

You don't like Spuffy. That's clear. Some love Spuffy. That's clear. There's probably even a few people out there who like Buffy and Andrew together... Maybe even some who like Buffy and Snyder or Buffy and the Master... These pairings seem like oogie choices to me, but this doesn't make the fans of such a pairing uncaring or terrible people. We like what we like and we do so for a variety of reasons. To each his or her own.
Nick ( actor who played Xander) talked about how he and Sarah had asked for a Buffy/Xander romance in season 7 but were turned down. I stand by it. Those who ship Spuffy care more about Spike's happiness than they do about Buffy's because they don't seem to care that he had tried to rape her. hardly any of them were angry at what he tried to do. Even after it had happened and Buffy was still suffering from PTSD, Spuffy fans made it about Spike's redemption when it should have been about her trauma. I like Buffy too much to ship her with the guy who had made her that miserable.
 
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