Shipping Wars...Shipping Wars Never Change

Let's try not to generalize about groups of fans 🙂 And remember, everyone brings different perspectives and sees things differently - that doesn't make one view valid and others not. It's okay to disagree, but let's be accepting of other people's opinions as well.

Also, Buffy would never have looked twice at Xander, imho 😉
 
Those who ship Spuffy care more about Spike's happiness than they do about Buffy's because they don't seem to care that he had tried to rape her.
How can you assume this? You do not living inside of their brains
I like Buffy too much to ship her with the guy who had made her that miserable.
Everyone makes Buffy miserable. Buffy is the one who made herself miserable the most
 
KaitKat
KaitKat
Hard agree with that last comment.
Nick ( actor who played Xander) talked about how he and Sarah had asked for a Buffy/Xander romance in season 7 but were turned down. I stand by it. Those who ship Spuffy care more about Spike's happiness than they do about Buffy's because they don't seem to care that he had tried to rape her. hardly any of them were angry at what he tried to do. Even after it had happened and Buffy was still suffering from PTSD, Spuffy fans made it about Spike's redemption when it should have been about her trauma. I like Buffy too much to ship her with the guy who had made her that miserable.

This is an insulting and PERSONAL attack on all those who like something you do not like -- and therefore unacceptable behavior in my opinion.

It is also definitely needlessly incendiary; and plain rude and unnecessary.

By this metric I could say that those who ship Buffy with ANYONE decent are selfish because she's someone who brutally beat up a partner (and essentially left him for dead - because he was so brutally pounded that he could easily have been unable to move himself from that alley before the sun came up) He was someone who cared about her and was trying to save her from herself (and possibly save her life, since she was about to turn herself in on a murder charge - something still subject to the death penalty in California) but I do NOT because such a personal attack would be wrong.

Also, because to do that would attack people who love Buffy and love the idea of her finding happiness with someone. And whatever her behavior, some of us still do love her. The thing is this: We aren't BAD because we like someone who did a bad, and vile thing. That was Buffy's mad-queen, burn-it-down moment and it was wrong and sick and psycho. And last time I looked MURDER trumps rape. Attempted murder trumps attempted rape. And Buffy did it in full possession of a soul, which means she was MORE culpable, more capable of knowing right from wrong than Spike EVER was until after he got his soul. Since she was his north star for morality, this also makes her behavior here almost a direct, linear path to Spike's violent attempt to prove his love NOT to hurt her, though what he did was also vile, sick and unacceptable and hurt her horribly in spite of his intent.

And even as a demon, he clearly and IMMEDIATELY recognized this was wrong and went directly to get his soul.

Buffy, by contrast, NEVER even apologizes for her behavior against him. What an awful message to send to any one powerful enough to beat their partner, any gender. Also: another terrible message heroes can beat people up for no reason and get away with it.

Considering the number of line of duty police murders, maybe that is NOT a message we want to send.

Since Buffy was the AGENT of good and essentially the sole arbiter of demon justice, she would have been in her rights to kill Spike for his crimes when he was a danger to others. She was NOT right to beat him up for fun and frustration and certainly NOT to trash him when he was trying to do something good, however misguided he was in his soulless (lack of) understanding of morality.

Police and the state can execute criminals for criminal behavior (first degree murder and treason), and kill them when they represent a clear and present threat to others.
They cannot shoot innocent, non-violent people for 'talking'.


Buffy's behavior was exactly like police brutality and was a vicious abuse of her considerable power.

She does not deserve or require a pedestal. Nor has she ever shown any desire for one.

Incidentally, that pedestal is, in part, why Buffy would be unlikely to ever end up with Xander. Worship is a poor foundation for a relationship.

BY THE METRIC USED ABOVE: Anyone pairing Buffy with the 'murderous demon Angel' or the 'terrible bigot Xander' is also somehow reprehensible BUT ONLY by the metric set up above... and frankly, since nearly everyone in the Buffyverse has done some pretty sick things, one could impugn the motives of just about ANY fan for shipping anyone.

Please note: I do NOT think that Angel or Xander (or other) shippers are evil or bad, or wrong even if there are ships I really don't like. They're simply FANS of their particular ship. Just to be 100% clear.

But this is FICTION and really ought not to be taken seriously enough for anger, much less personal attacks.

Further, even if it wasn't fiction, we're not suggesting that someone FORCE anyone to do something against his/her will. If Buffy were a real person and we liked Spike as her potential partner, Buffy would have every right to tell us to go jump in a lake. She could also tell anyone who was against a particular partnership to do the same thing.


It is NOT appropriate or remotely acceptable to LAUNCH AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK on fans of ANY ship. And this post is precisely why some of us really hate this competitive 'shipping wars' business. I really do hope that further attacks on ANY fans' motives (and our moral fiber as well, frankly) will cease.

It is fine to have a reasoned argument against Spuffy (or any other ship).​
It is fine to personally detest Spuffy (or any other ship).​
It is not fine to attack people for liking Spuffy (or any other ship).


Further, from a rhetorical standpoint, saying such and such a person 'likes the ship' or 'hates the ship' is NOT an actual argument for or against the ship. Popularity by itself does and cannot not justify a position in an argument... even if there's proof of that popularity.


Note: Ad hominem - Wikipedia
 
In comparison to certain other fandoms, I actually find the shipping wars for BtVS to be on the milder side at least here on the BuffyBoards for the most part.
For examples:
OTH and TVD fandom shipping wars get super ugly. I have been personally attacked for liking Stelena over Delena on TVD. The OTH ship wars over Leyton vs. Brucas (on OTH) are especially heated.

Now, I am not like some of the others who have posted on here. I am a hard core shipper. But, I try to be respectful of other people's ships, while still staying grounded in my own opinion. Some people do not connect to romantic pairings on TV, but I am not one of those people. I highly connect to romantic pairings and I usually strongly connect to one more so than the other.
Like in BtVS it's Bangel for me all the way. They are my OTP.
I still find Spuffy interesting, but incredibly problematic so I don't ship it.
I find Cangel ridiculous. It just shouldn't have happened. They were better as friends. So I don't enjoy that plot what so ever.
But I do like Dangel- again I find it rich and it makes for good TV, but I don't ship it.
I could go on and on with different pairings.
But, I think it's simple for people who ship- you feel a connection to the pairings story, chemistry, and emotions. You may identify it as something you may want/already have/or just find incredibly rich to observe. For whatever reason something connects you to that pairing. I don't think it has to be a hostile ship war, but I will go down with my ship, but in a respectful way.
 
Kind of ironic that a thread about shipping wars turned into a shipping war, or perhaps that's to be expected.

To be brutal if I look at both shows I really don't think shipping matters in the grand scheme of things; at the end of both shows only two characters are in any kind of committed romantic relationship; Willow and Kennedy (quality ship to invest in I'm sure everyone will agree).

Everyone else has the bodies of exes strewn behind them or maybe have exes fleeing town for their lives. Seems like the narrative is that romantic love is transitory and unimportant compared to the familial love that is more constant, the one you fight with.


And before anyone starts I'm not saying that romances 'don't matter' or that they don't enable character growth- sure they do- it's just that, other things seem way more important.


For me, love who you love and ship who you want... however do not try and tell me my interpretation of what is depicted onscreen and demand that I acknowledge it simply because you choose to invest in it; that really irritates me.
'Oh, you can only get Season 7 if you truly understand the deep loving bond between Buffy and Spike'
'Oh, Amends is wonderful because of Buffy and Angel's powerful scenes'.

Pfft! To me both of those above statements (which I have read on these very boards) are completely wrong, subjective sappy-shipper nonsense that I have no time for.
Oh, I have my own bias' sure, but I don't maintain that some things are great simply because ship, they are great for other reasons, which is why I ship the way I do.


Anyway, I will say that shipping has positives as well; it inspires art plenty of art, it creates passion within a fandom, helps keep things going and viewers invested. There are romances in the Buffyverse for all types to enjoy...or if not just make up your own, that's fun too.
Also onscreen romance might not be for every viewer but there is no more powerful reason to invest in a character than seeing them in love and seeing what they will do for that love. And that's nice to witness, and sometimes its painful but even then it can be interesting.
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
What I like the most about Amends is Xander showing some support to Buffy after everything about Angel.
janas
janas
But I really like Amends 🤭
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
The Amends statement you have in italics, seems more like an opinion than someone telling you how to feel.
Is this actually a « war/debate » honestly Brucas fan seem to dominate. I mean I have the impression that there are far more Brucas fan than leyton.
I am so boring when it comes to OTH. I mostly like the way things ended up and like most of the characters, even (unusual in late additions) the child characters. Everyone seemed to have ended up more or less happy. I wish Lucas (and Peyton) had remained on the show full time to the end, but other that, I'm pretty happy with the way things went. Also happy Dan Scott
reformed, did the heroic thing and died a reasonably happy man
and most everyone was true to him/herself. I enjoyed the various relationship permutations as they happened, but I never got attached enough to be upset when things changed.

I had a huge amount of fun writing a crossover version of their universe with Buffy and company added.

Kind of ironic that a thread about shipping wars turned into a shipping war, or perhaps that's to be expected.

To be brutal if I look at both shows I really don't think shipping matters in the grand scheme of things; at the end of both shows only two characters are in any kind of committed romantic relationship; Willow and Kennedy (quality ship to invest in I'm sure everyone will agree).

Everyone else has the bodies of exes strewn behind them or maybe have exes fleeing town for their lives. Seems like the narrative is that romantic love is transitory and unimportant compared to the familial love that is more constant, the one you fight with.


And before anyone starts I'm not saying that romances 'don't matter' or that they don't enable character growth- sure they do- it's just that, other things seem way more important.


For me, love who you love and ship who you want... however do not try and tell me my interpretation of what is depicted onscreen and demand that I acknowledge it simply because you choose to invest in it; that really irritates me.
'Oh, you can only get Season 7 if you truly understand the deep loving bond between Buffy and Spike'
'Oh, Amends is wonderful because of Buffy and Angel's powerful scenes'.

Pfft! To me both of those above statements (which I have read on these very boards) are completely wrong, subjective sappy-shipper nonsense that I have no time for.
Oh, I have my own bias' sure, but I don't maintain that some things are great simply because ship, they are great for other reasons, which is why I ship the way I do.


Anyway, I will say that shipping has positives as well; it inspires art plenty of art, it creates passion within a fandom, helps keep things going and viewers invested. There are romances in the Buffyverse for all types to enjoy...or if not just make up your own, that's fun too.
Also onscreen romance might not be for every viewer but there is no more powerful reason to invest in a character than seeing them in love and seeing what they will do for that love. And that's nice to witness, and sometimes its painful but even then it can be interesting.
I think fans engaging with the show keeps it fresh, and shipping is one of the most popular ways fans engage. As you say, that kind of engagement leads to creativity and fosters continued interest. All of which are a very good thing.Until it starts a war, I think it can be fun. If everyone loved exactly the same things, exactly the same way, it would be a seriously boring world.

I do find intra-fandom wars and disrespect to be bloody annoying and tiresome.
 
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I wish Lucas (and Peyton) had remained on the show full time to the end,
I don’t and I’m happy they left I could never stand Peyton, and Lucas was boring when he was around her. So I’m glad they left.
OTH later seasons were actually horrible. I can’t believe it managed to last 9 seasons. I watched until the end just to see the end not really by interest and I believe many were like me. Honestly the high school years are the best, after season 4 and the time jump it was just not the same.
 
I don’t and I’m happy they left I could never stand Peyton, and Lucas was boring when he was around her. So I’m glad they left.
OTH later seasons were actually horrible. I can’t believe it managed to last 9 seasons. I watched until the end just to see the end not really by interest and I believe many were like me. Honestly the high school years are the best, after season 4 and the time jump it was just not the same.
I probably like the later bits bc i'm older and started watching during season six. We all like who we like.
 
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
I like the older seasons too! And I'm honestly pleased with how it all ended, even if Brucas had my heart more than Leyton
Is this actually a « war/debate » honestly Brucas fan seem to dominate. I mean I have the impression that there are far more Brucas fan than leyton.
Idk I've seen some reddit posts that are hardcore Leyton fans. And the Leyton fans can be mean lol. I do think there is probably a larger number of Brucas fans but doesn't make the ship wars any less ugly.
 
Antho
Antho
Reddit are always wrong 😂
Shippers and ship wars play a big part in keeping this place ticking I feel. Just by it's nature it seems to encourage spirited exchanges. Often amusing watching people get stuck into each other over their interpretation of a characters feelings.

A bit silly really since we all know Snuffy is the only ship in town.
 
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
Is that Snyder and Spike?
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
You mispelled Guffy
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
snuffy? gigglesnort. no idea.
Plasma
Plasma
thetopher
thetopher
Snuffy sounds like a kind of dangerous ship....
mdkgHkS.jpg
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
terrifying.
Plasma
Plasma
Buffy: 😃 Snyder: 🗿
This is an insulting and PERSONAL attack on all those who like something you do not like -- and therefore unacceptable behavior in my opinion.

It is also definitely needlessly incendiary; and plain rude and unnecessary.

By this metric I could say that those who ship Buffy with ANYONE decent are selfish because she's someone who brutally beat up a partner (and essentially left him for dead - because he was so brutally pounded that he could easily have been unable to move himself from that alley before the sun came up) He was someone who cared about her and was trying to save her from herself (and possibly save her life, since she was about to turn herself in on a murder charge - something still subject to the death penalty in California) but I do NOT because such a personal attack would be wrong.

Also, because to do that would attack people who love Buffy and love the idea of her finding happiness with someone. And whatever her behavior, some of us still do love her. The thing is this: We aren't BAD because we like someone who did a bad, and vile thing. That was Buffy's mad-queen, burn-it-down moment and it was wrong and sick and psycho. And last time I looked MURDER trumps rape. Attempted murder trumps attempted rape. And Buffy did it in full possession of a soul, which means she was MORE culpable, more capable of knowing right from wrong than Spike EVER was until after he got his soul. Since she was his north star for morality, this also makes her behavior here almost a direct, linear path to Spike's violent attempt to prove his love NOT to hurt her, though what he did was also vile, sick and unacceptable and hurt her horribly in spite of his intent.

And even as a demon, he clearly and IMMEDIATELY recognized this was wrong and went directly to get his soul.

Buffy, by contrast, NEVER even apologizes for her behavior against him. What an awful message to send to any one powerful enough to beat their partner, any gender. Also: another terrible message heroes can beat people up for no reason and get away with it.

Considering the number of line of duty police murders, maybe that is NOT a message we want to send.

Since Buffy was the AGENT of good and essentially the sole arbiter of demon justice, she would have been in her rights to kill Spike for his crimes when he was a danger to others. She was NOT right to beat him up for fun and frustration and certainly NOT to trash him when he was trying to do something good, however misguided he was in his soulless (lack of) understanding of morality.

Police and the state can execute criminals for criminal behavior (first degree murder and treason), and kill them when they represent a clear and present threat to others.
They cannot shoot innocent, non-violent people for 'talking'.


Buffy's behavior was exactly like police brutality and was a vicious abuse of her considerable power.

She does not deserve or require a pedestal. Nor has she ever shown any desire for one.

Incidentally, that pedestal is, in part, why Buffy would be unlikely to ever end up with Xander. Worship is a poor foundation for a relationship.

BY THE METRIC USED ABOVE: Anyone pairing Buffy with the 'murderous demon Angel' or the 'terrible bigot Xander' is also somehow reprehensible BUT ONLY by the metric set up above... and frankly, since nearly everyone in the Buffyverse has done some pretty sick things, one could impugn the motives of just about ANY fan for shipping anyone.

Please note: I do NOT think that Angel or Xander (or other) shippers are evil or bad, or wrong even if there are ships I really don't like. They're simply FANS of their particular ship. Just to be 100% clear.

But this is FICTION and really ought not to be taken seriously enough for anger, much less personal attacks.

Further, even if it wasn't fiction, we're not suggesting that someone FORCE anyone to do something against his/her will. If Buffy were a real person and we liked Spike as her potential partner, Buffy would have every right to tell us to go jump in a lake. She could also tell anyone who was against a particular partnership to do the same thing.


It is NOT appropriate or remotely acceptable to LAUNCH AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK on fans of ANY ship. And this post is precisely why some of us really hate this competitive 'shipping wars' business. I really do hope that further attacks on ANY fans' motives (and our moral fiber as well, frankly) will cease.

It is fine to have a reasoned argument against Spuffy (or any other ship).​
It is fine to personally detest Spuffy (or any other ship).​
It is not fine to attack people for liking Spuffy (or any other ship).


Further, from a rhetorical standpoint, saying such and such a person 'likes the ship' or 'hates the ship' is NOT an actual argument for or against the ship. Popularity by itself does and cannot not justify a position in an argument... even if there's proof of that popularity.


Note: Ad hominem - Wikipedia
My problem isn't just that people ship Buffy with Spike who,out of the three love interests, made her the most miserable. It's the fact that they pretend that he's better than Riley. Riley treated her well compared to Spike and Angel yet they, for some reason, like to pretend he's worse than them. It's laughable for anyone who believes that.
 
My problem isn't just that people ship Buffy with Spike who,out of the three love interests, made her the most miserable. It's the fact that they pretend that he's better than Riley. Riley treated her well compared to Spike and Angel yet they, for some reason, like to pretend he's worse than them. It's laughable for anyone who believes that.
I don't think that's an invalid opinion. Riley was very needy towards the end, in his way he persued Buffy just as ruthlessly as Spike did blaming her for not letting him in intially. He cheated on her when she didn't give him enough attention because her mum was sick, he blamed her and then gave her an ultimatum. The show seemed to want us to believe he was the one who got away but the actual text says no he wasn't and they weren't right for each other. Angel never tried to enforce anything on her including paying him attention nor did Spike once he'd gained a soul and an awareness of the fact he wasn't insane and a bit of stabity - Riley did.

All of her love interests made her miserable at points and she kinda hooked up with Spike intially because she wasn't just miserable but clinically depressed. Yes a more altruistic entity wouldn't have exploited that but at that stage he wasn't capable of it and she wasn't blameless when it came to him.
 
"in his way he pursued Buffy just as ruthlessly as Spike did"

Um, I remember it differently. 😵

Ah, wait, no, I remember that time Riley chained Buffy up and threatened to feed her to his ex unless she said he liked her just a lil' bit. That bad boy Riley is so sexy...
 
I've been active in BTVS forums since I was a teen (I'm 31 now) and I took a long break from participating in forums, life got busy amongst other things. For the last few years I've become much more of a reader of forums and groups than I have participating in the discussions but after a recent re-watch, I really wanted to dig into my inner teen and become active in conversations again.

I made my first opinion comment a while back based on a question about Spike (not here!), I broke it down, explained what I felt and why I felt it and part of the opinion was in relation to Spuffy. It felt good to be posting again and taking part in conversations only to be notified of a reply to my comment which was a very personal attack on myself and my personal character for having the opinion that I did on a fictional character and their relationship.

The great thing about film making is that each and every person can take away something different from what they’re being shown. It’s why we all have different favourite characters, couples, episodes, storylines. The list goes on. We can only go off what the writers and filmmakers have put before us.

Nobody is wrong in their own personal opinion of what they believe in the intentions of characters or what they took from a moment, a scene or an action. Healthy debate is great, and explaining why you feel the opposite is a great discussion to read through and to be open to different perspectives without directly attacking someone who thinks the opposite.

I have always been invested in the romances in all shows that I watch. But that’s just my personality, that’s what I relate to. I love good strong character arcs and development. I love great acting and solid chemistry between actors/actresses. I know that my opinion on something isn’t going to be shared by everyone but that is the beauty of it! I love that people can introduce me to new aspects of a character or a relationship that I had failed to pick up on in my own interpretation.

But just because someone else has related to a different character or relationship, doesn’t make me think less of them for their opinion or question their morals as a human being. It fascinates me to see the same piece of art produce multiple different reactions and opinions whether I personally agree with them or not.
 
K
katmobile
I think the comments have to be made in good faith and with as open a mind as possible and an acknowledgement of your own biases but yeah I agree it can be very useful to see things from another perspective.
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