Should Angel and Spike be held accountable for their soulless actions?

I think Spike proved that a vampire can be good, as he being soulless, went out to get a soul for Buffy.

So I think that Angel and Spike should be held accountable for their soulless actions.

Spike was able to be good even without a soul. Maybe it was just because of his chip, but he became good nonetheless. That shows that even while being a soulless vampire, you still have a bit of humanity in you. You still have memories, opinions, feelings, just a drive of evilness. Angel should be held accountable for killing Jenny and refusing his cure. It was still him, just more evil. Just like Spike to be held accountable for attempting to rape Buffy.

But at least Spike tried to get his soul back. 😉
Angel and Angelus are nothing alike. Not only do they act differently, but they speak, move, and even have different tastes. Angel likes MANDY, and Angelus doesn't. They are not the same.

---------- Post added at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

It is my opinion that they are both equally responsible for their actions pre-soul.

They lack conscience without a soul, but still are aware of societal rules about right and wrong. They simply do not care...except sometimes Spike does, indicating (regardless of why he was motivated to care) that their behavior was still a result of choice. The demon and lack of conscience are an impairment to making what I would deem to be good decisions, but not an excuse for not being responsible.

In the research done with sociopaths, who by definition lack empathy and moral conscience, we are seeing that there is an organic basis for the sociopathy. So, one could argue that the lack of "soul" is also forced on these individuals since it is an element lacking in their brain chemistry...however, it is popular opinion (at least in the American judicial system) that Sociopaths are responsible for their actions. Spike and Angel have a decreased capacity for Empathy and decreased respect for morality as a result of their soulless-ness, but it is my opinion that they are still liable for their actions.

My bottom line is: if you do bad stuff and know it's bad stuff but don't care...you are responsible for what you did. Empathy/conscience or not.
It's been made very clear on the show that a Vampire isn't simply a creature with no conscience. It's a demon that's taken over a human's body. It has all their memories... but it's not them.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:09 PM ----------

Since both Angel and Spike had their demons forced onto them I don't hold them personally responsible for their soulless actions. While neither of them were particularly great humans before, I doubt either would have become ruthless murders, like they did when they lost their souls. That being said, I do find it honorable that they feel responsible and are making an attempt to atone for their actions.

As far as holding vampires responsible for their actions, my biggest problem is when people want to credit Spike for the "good" things he did pre-soul and then later use the lack of a soul as an excuse for his behavior. The way I see it, he is either responsible for it all or not responsible for any of it.
I always viewed it as Spike being unique in the way of having a small bit of humanity left in him somehow, but, for all those years, it was suffocated by the demon in him. And when he got the chip, he was forced to suffer through his humanity, which grew within him. But, without the chip, it wouldn't have happened.
 
I wanted to add that while I do think fans need to be consistent in judging both vampires, for Buffy and friends, their very interactions with both vampires was inherently inconsistent, which leads to quite a lot of points to be taken into consideration.
Remember that on behalf of the scoobies, the specific judgment Spike receives post chip in response to what he's done while soulless for the last 100 years is largely due to his position in-- or near-- the scooby circle. For Buffy and friends, before the chip, Spike was judged just as Angelus had been judged; he was simply a soulless vampire that needed to be killed. After the chip was implanted, he was seen in the same light but as he was defenseless, they began to take on a neutral attitude toward him. Throughout season 4, they (unintentionally and often unknowingly) began to develop a relationship with him and actually depended on him for information, correctly assuming that his need to survive would be enough motivation for him to help them. Of course once they discovered that he was playing both sides for a little while, that temporarily symbiotic relationship was called into question, at which point he truly surprised them by helping them in the final battle.

Because of that, in the start of season 5, their stance on Spike is basically back to neutral, but slowly and surely they start to depend on him once again. Riley wants information on Dracula. The gang needs more muscle. Soon they are, however reluctantly and unwittingly, developing a relationship with Spike once again. Then, of course, he reveals Riley's betrayal. With Riley out of the picture, Buffy is even more dependent upon Spike for muscle. For information. By the end of the season of course, he is a scooby for all intents and purposes. He is literally sacrificing his life to save them, (Intervention, Spiral, Weight of the World, the Gift), regardless of the debatable nature of his motivation.
From this point forward, Spike is a trusted, if not universally liked, contact. In Buffy's absence, it is assumed on a nightly basis that he will patrol with them, save them from demons, and protect Dawn.
So now, the very same creature with the very same composition as the one who came to Sunnydale to kill Buffy all those years ago, is being relied upon to not only refrain from killing, but to actively help the mission and save the scoobies. This is completely different from the scenario with Angel. It was always Angel who was the (sometimes reluctantly) trusted and accepted go-to vampire. It was always Angelus who was feared and targeted. Of course it was much easier for Buffy and friends to separate Angel and Angelus; he made that quite simple for them. The writers helped by making it so that Angel conveniently forgot some of his most recent and atrocious deeds upon being re-cursed in "Becoming II." It was all so black and white: "here is your hero, here is your demon."

But for Spike? Once the series of events had been put into motion that would act as a form of behavior modification, he couldn't be looked upon in the same light as he was while enemy to the gang; the series of events listed above demonstrate that this is the case.

When the scoobies exhibited disappointment and disbelief toward a late season, soulless Spike, those feelings were emotionally driven, and based upon their conflicting, positive interactions with him. Indeed by the events of Seeing Red, Spike's unfavorable actions are no longer expected from him and he is in fact held to the same standards as any one of the ensouled scoobies. As, well, Buffy's lover. They hold him accountable for his actions because they've seen him be good. Of course, it is due to the progress that Spike had made that he did not successfully rape Buffy--didn't try harder, and decided he couldn't trust himself to exist in her presence without a soul. Spike holds himself to these same standards, which is exactly why he goes to Africa.

Once again, Spike is the un-dead embodiment of "grey area." For me, I can keep my judgments consistent between vampires, throughout both souled and soulless existence, because for me, there is a difference between soulless Spike and soulless chipped Spike on the path to redemption. Here's what I mean:
Angelus and pre season 4 Spike for me are the same. As accountable for their actions as naturally predatory animals or the mentally ill are for theirs. Once the inherent humanity in Spike is allowed to come through after the implementation of the chip and the subsequent realization of feelings for a human hero, and once the notions of empathy and sacrifice make their way back in his favor, (by season 6 when he is truly exhibiting the aforementioned qualities), I begin to hold him accountable for all of his present and future actions the same way I do other scoobies. The same way they do. By season 6 Spike's not a monster and he's not yet a man. He's not evil Angelus and he's not wholly good Angel. He's something completely different, altogether, and that needs to be taken into account when you compare a soulless Spike to Angelus.
This is exactly what Spike realizes, and is why he gets his soul.

I hope all of that made some sense.
 
Last edited:
D
dexeded
I heart you.
brinkster130
brinkster130
It made a lot of sense, even if I don't agree with it all; it seems to be a very well thought out explanation. :)
K
kittenpoker
AWESOME post!!!!
It's been made very clear on the show that a Vampire isn't simply a creature with no conscience. It's a demon that's taken over a human's body. It has all their memories... but it's not them.

It is not them entirely, but even the Judge noted that while Angelus lacked any humanity in him, Spike still had some...even pre-chip. Where does the humanity come from if the original person is not in there at all? It must be...and Spike's human self must be stronger than Angel's human self or alternately Angel's demon is stronger than Spike's demon. But either way, the person remains in some fashion and at least in Spike's case, asserts itself as desired. I just don't think that lacking a soul means one lack's responsibility for his or her actions...as a human or vampire (anyone remember the pyro kid on Angel that was possessed by a demon but the demon was scared of the kid because he was soulless and evil? Yeah...still holding that kid as responsible for his actions as I'd hold soulless or ensouled Spike).

If you know the right thing and do the wrong thing, then (to me) you are responsible no matter what your motivation.
 
It is not them entirely, but even the Judge noted that while Angelus lacked any humanity in him, Spike still had some...even pre-chip.Where does the humanity come from if the original person is not in there at all? It must be...and Spike's human self must be stronger than Angel's human self or alternately Angel's demon is stronger than Spike's demon. But either way, the person remains in some fashion and at least in Spike's case, asserts itself as desired. I just don't think that lacking a soul means one lack's responsibility for his or her actions...as a human or vampire (anyone remember the pyro kid on Angel that was possessed by a demon but the demon was scared of the kid because he was soulless and evil? Yeah...still holding that kid as responsible for his actions as I'd hold soulless or ensouled Spike).

If you know the right thing and do the wrong thing, then (to me) you are responsible no matter what your motivation.

I think the humanity comes from the person's memories and stuff that remain. Just my opinion, though.
 
Angel and Angelus are nothing alike. Not only do they act differently, but they speak, move, and even have different tastes. Angel likes MANDY, and Angelus doesn't. They are not the same.

So would you also say pre-soul Spike and soulful Spike are wholly different? No doubt Angel and Angelus are not completely the same, but they are far more similar than people seem to think.



It's been made very clear on the show that a Vampire isn't simply a creature with no conscience. It's a demon that's taken over a human's body. It has all their memories... but it's not them.

I've always seen that as Council bullshit, to keep the Slayers in line. A Slayer can't second-guess their actions--can't think, 'what if the person's still in there?'--so they make sure to distinguish man from monster. But it's likely there's more to vampires than just that. Buffy had feelings for pre-soul Spike. Does that mean she liked the demon inside Spike, since his... essence... had vacated his body? Nope. You could see it as Spike having managed to retain more humanity than other vamps, which I think is true, but even that just goes to show that it isn't as simple as soul+humanself out, demon in.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I think this is where problems arise, because it was clearly established that Angelus and Angel are two different beings, but with Spike its hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
Yes, he made the decision to get a soul, but he made this decision after having a chip forced upon him that essentially trained him not to harm humans. I think it is debatable whether or not Spike would have wanted a soul had he never been chipped.


Spike's chip did nothing that he wasn't already. It didn't give him feelings he already had.
There was a thread not too long ago about it, about the chip and whether it made Spike fall in love with Buffy. Well, clearly that wasn't the case, because he had a thing for her from the minute he saw her. Usually vampires turn from their human selves into the demony self once they become vampires. Look at Spike. He was still very William. He wasn't evil until Angelus made him one. The chip didn't do anything to his feelings. It didn't make him "nice", it only brought back what Spike really is. It gave him the chance to return to his real self.

brinkster130 agrees: I think this is where problems arise, because it was clearly established that Angelus and Angel are two different beings, but with Spike its hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

Right. Because Spike is a "special" vampire. Like I said, he was still very human, and his demon self doesn't control him as much. He's still very very William. So he's a special case that we don't see with other vampires. The question is why. How did it happen? What made him so special? That's the mystery. I mean, he could have gone completely evil once the demon settled inside him. But he wasn't. And that's pretty much how I see it, as a fact. That fact is what gave him the "ability" to seek out his soul, to want to be a good man. To love. That's why I'm saying that the chip has nothing to do with all that. It's the fact that he is still very human, as opposed to most vampires. And like the example above, even the judge is proof enough for his humanity, and for Angel's lack of humanity. Bottom line, chip has nothing to do with who Spike is and what he feels. It's all him, it's who he is.
 
Spike's chip did nothing that he wasn't already.

Well that's where we differ, I think the chip made a huge difference in Spike. He was a notorious evil vampire; He killed and enjoyed it; after the chip not so much.

There was a thread not too long ago about it, about the chip and whether it made Spike fall in love with Buffy. Well, clearly that wasn't the case, because he had a thing for her from the minute he saw her. Usually vampires turn from their human selves into the demony self once they become vampires. Look at Spike. He was still very William. He wasn't evil until Angelus made him one. The chip didn't do anything to his feelings. It didn't make him "nice", it only brought back what Spike really is. It gave him the chance to return to his real self.

Spike didn't seem to "love" Buffy when he left her to fend for herself against Angelus. He seemed perfectly content with her being killed as long as he got Dru back.

Because Spike is a "special" vampire. Like I said, he was still very human, and his demon self doesn't control him as much. He's still very very William. So he's a special case that we don't see with other vampires. The question is why. How did it happen? What made him so special? That's the mystery. I mean, he could have gone completely evil once the demon settled inside him. But he wasn't. And that's pretty much how I see it, as a fact. That fact is what gave him the "ability" to seek out his soul, to want to be a good man. To love. That's why I'm saying that the chip has nothing to do with all that. It's the fact that he is still very human, as opposed to most vampires. And like the example above, even the judge is proof enough for his humanity, and for Angel's lack of humanity. Bottom line, chip has nothing to do with who Spike is and what he feels. It's all him, it's who he is.


But who is William? From what I've seen he has always been defined by those around him; whether it be his mother, Ceclia, Angelus, Dru or Buffy. I don't see him as a "special" vampire, but rather one that has become an anomaly because of circumstance rather than his own doing.

Again, you may believe that the chip had no effect on Spike, but think it had a huge impact on his journey and his decision to get a soul. I never saw any evidence that would imply that Spike would have suggested that Spike would have wanted a soul had it not been for the chip.
 
Well that's where we differ, I think the chip made a huge difference in Spike. He was a notorious evil vampire; He killed and enjoyed it; after the chip not so much.

As I said, the chip just brought him back to his real self. William. He didn't kill after the chip because he couldn't, it's not what made him "good". It came from inside him. It opened the door, the chance to return to the good man he really is. A chip can't change people's feelings. It's just a device.


Spike didn't seem to "love" Buffy when he left her to fend for herself against Angelus. He seemed perfectly content with her being killed as long as he got Dru back.

And right after that Dru dumped him because of his feelings for Buffy. Even she saw that he had a thing for her.


But who is William? From what I've seen he has always been defined by those around him; whether it be his mother, Ceclia, Angelus, Dru or Buffy. I don't see him as a "special" vampire, but rather one that has become an anomaly because of circumstance rather than his own doing.


William was a loser. Spike if you ask around, is a loser. Does it have anything to do with him being a good or a bad man?
Spike is special because he is the only vampire in the history who decided to rebel the vampire world and get a soul. He has conscious. He feels guilt and remorse. That without even having a soul! It's enormous! All along he still had William inside of him, stronger than the demon. THAT'S William AND Spike. Very very thin line, as apposed to other vampires who aren't "special" enough to get a soul, fall for a Slayer, fighting on the good side. Spike IS different.


Again, you may believe that the chip had no effect on Spike, but think it had a huge impact on his journey and his decision to get a soul. I never saw any evidence that would imply that Spike would have suggested that Spike would have wanted a soul had it not been for the chip.

Like I said, it gave him the "ability". To see his true self. I believe that Spike, even when evil, even when killing, is still William. He could feel what other vampires couldn't. And that's not what the chip was meant for. It doesn't give anyone feelings. That was all him. It created the situation where Buffy wouldn't stake him, be harmless. But the human self was in him all along. Even when he tried to be evil and sometime along the road it failed. At the end of a day, Buffy is what gave him the push, made him stronger, to later on believe that it's okay not to be evil, to love a Slayer, to be a man. He wanted to be a good man. It's both Buffy and William that gave him that ability. Not the chip. And if the man inside him existed before the soul, there's a big chance he would become a good man anyway. Because he already had it inside him. The chip just let it out, brought him closer to Buffy. But it didn't make him feel and want to become good.
 
Last edited:
brinkster130
brinkster130
Well, we clearly have different opinions about how much influence the chip had on Spike. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. ;)
So would you also say pre-soul Spike and soulful Spike are wholly different? No doubt Angel and Angelus are not completely the same, but they are far more similar than people seem to think.
Please explain.
I've always seen that as Council bullshit, to keep the Slayers in line. A Slayer can't second-guess their actions--can't think, 'what if the person's still in there?'--so they make sure to distinguish man from monster. But it's likely there's more to vampires than just that. Buffy had feelings for pre-soul Spike. Does that mean she liked the demon inside Spike, since his... essence... had vacated his body? Nope. You could see it as Spike having managed to retain more humanity than other vamps, which I think is true, but even that just goes to show that it isn't as simple as soul+humanself out, demon in.
Spike's unique in that way.
 
Please explain.

Spike's unique in that way.

I think the problem here is that we have different views on what exactly happens when a human is turned. You believe in the whole 'human+soul out, demon in', and believe that Spike's only the way he is because he's an exception. I agree that Spike's an exception, but there's also far more going on than simply extracting the human essence and plugging in the demon, during the siring process. Angelus still has Angel's and Liam's memories, at the very least. Of course, Angelus has far less humanity in him than Spike, than maybe majority of vamps, which can be seen in the Judge's assesment of him, but why do we refuse to relate Angelus with Angel, if we do that with pre-soul and ensouled Spike? The later seasons, the Spike seasons, completely undermined what we learned in S2 with the Angelus arc. It showed that what we took as a rule--that soulless vamps are always inherently evil and cannot change, and the soul is the only thing that can cause a vampire to do good--is in fact only an example. Spike refutes what Angel 'proved'. They are as different as can be, and yet are under the same rare circumstances of having a soul. So we have to take the same standard to judge them. Ergo, if soulless Spike and ensouled Spike are the same person (well, vampire, but still), then Angelus and Angel are too.


-end rant...-
 
But that's the thing. They're not. The Judge says that there is NO humanity in Angelus. Not little. Not less. NONE. AT ALL. The only thing they share, is memories. And even then, they don't even completely share those. Because Angelus remembers The Beast, when Angel doesn't. Proving that they are two seperate entities. Not at all the same person.
 
[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION] Wish I could rep you for this, I agree so much. You already were the last one I karma'd, though. 🙂

So would you also say pre-soul Spike and soulful Spike are wholly different? No doubt Angel and Angelus are not completely the same, but they are far more similar than people seem to think.
Back in S8
when the reveal that the Bad Hair Dude is Twilight came out and the space boinking happened
, I've already made a post how similar his souled and unsouled personae are. I'll go look later if I can still find it (thread is probably in the Cemetery by now).

I've always seen that as Council bullshit, to keep the Slayers in line. A Slayer can't second-guess their actions--can't think, 'what if the person's still in there?'--so they make sure to distinguish man from monster. But it's likely there's more to vampires than just that. Buffy had feelings for pre-soul Spike. Does that mean she liked the demon inside Spike, since his... essence... had vacated his body? Nope. You could see it as Spike having managed to retain more humanity than other vamps, which I think is true, but even that just goes to show that it isn't as simple as soul+humanself out, demon in.
Hell yes. By now, I'm pretty sure that the demonic essence basically just kills off empathy and otherwise does nothing active. The vampire is the human (and as usual, I point to my most favorite Freudian slip in the verse... by the Bad Hair Dude himself, the famous "Well, actually..." in Doppelgangland 😉), just afflicted with psychopathy.

The "humanity" that The Judge measured has to relate to something different (let's keep in mind that he found it in Drusilla and Dalton, too, and would very probably have found it in Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander from the Wishverse.)... it might even be as banal as "likes something other than mayhem, pain, and death", which The Judge was singlemindedly focused on himself. Angelus doesn't like anything but his own ego, and basically hates the world. (Facts which, IMO, don't change all that much when he's ensouled, either... the guy is One. Selfish. Bastard, soul or none.)
 
D
dexeded
[No message]
Obviously. Because giving up being human, sacrificing his shanshu, saving the world, destroying the ring of amara... All very selfish.

---------- Post added at 06:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 AM ----------

The Judge saw fear in Dalton. But last I checked, fear wasn't exclusive to humans. And I'd even argue that he only sensed the love that Spike felt for Drusilla, because we all know that she didn't actually love Spike back. And the demon takes on its hosts memories, so therefore it only makes sense that it would take on the traits of the mind it now holds as its own. But yet respond to those traits and memories very differently than a soul and a heartbeat would.
 
I
InsaneMystic
it wasn't fear in Dalton that he killed him for. it was that he [b]liked to read[/b].
Obviously. Because giving up being human, sacrificing his shanshu, saving the world, destroying the ring of amara... All very selfish.
It's always about him. And saving the world? I mostly remember him for ending world peace, sending LA to hell just to spite the S.P., and causing apocalypse to have space sex. Obviously far nicer and far less selfish than the "totally different" Angelus. 🙄


And here's my old post, dug it back up after some rummaging:
Anyone like Angelus? - View single post
Seriously, I like him a lot more when he doesn't have a soul. He has so much more integrity that way.
 
It's always about him. And saving the world? I mostly remember him for ending world peace, sending LA to hell just to spite the S.P., and causing apocalypse to have space sex. Obviously far nicer and far less selfish than the "totally different" Angelus. 🙄


And here's my old post, dug it back up after some rummaging:
Anyone like Angelus? - View single post
Seriously, I like him a lot more when he doesn't have a soul. He has so much more integrity that way.
The comics aren't canon. Months, not days, after Cordy's death, and he was intent to cling back to Buffy because he was lost without his true love (Cordelia), a brunette by the way, which is the real reason he kinda lost his mind after. Although I do believe that he clung to Buffy, because she reminded him of Darla, and also what made him go for Kate and Nina, also blondes. And why wouldn't he lie to Buffy?
 
Last edited:
The person who created the buffyverse said the comics are cannon, so I'd say (despite my dislike for them) that they are...they can't be disregarded just because they don't support your position.
 
D
dexeded
[No message]
The person who created the buffyverse said the comics are cannon, so I'd say (despite my dislike for them) that they are...they can't be disregarded just because they don't support your position.
That's not why. I've never thought of them like that. They aren't live action, and the show was. How can they be canon?

---------- Post added at 07:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 AM ----------

It's always about him. And saving the world? I mostly remember him for ending world peace, sending LA to hell just to spite the S.P., and causing apocalypse to have space sex. Obviously far nicer and far less selfish than the "totally different" Angelus. 🙄


And here's my old post, dug it back up after some rummaging:
Anyone like Angelus? - View single post
Seriously, I like him a lot more when he doesn't have a soul. He has so much more integrity that way.
Nice analysis though. And I happen to think Angel's hair is cool.
 
A
arabella
[No message]
But that's the thing. They're not. The Judge says that there is NO humanity in Angelus. Not little. Not less. NONE. AT ALL. The only thing they share, is memories. And even then, they don't even completely share those. Because Angelus remembers The Beast, when Angel doesn't. Proving that they are two seperate entities. Not at all the same person.

So you're basically giving Angel a free pass for what Angelus did, because 'there is NO humanity in Angelus'? Liam went through the same process of siring as William did, hell, as all vamps did. So if Angelus doesn't have a scrap of humanity in him, that's Liam's fault. Something in his character, him lacking something strong enough to cling on. His fault, his to be blamed, because he wasn't good enough, or whatever. Angel cannot be held to a different standard to Spike.

Angelus and him are not two seperate entities, just him without a conscience and a whole lot of innate vampiric bloodlust. Angelus=Liam+vampiric tendency to mayhem+bloodlust+lack of conscience. Angel=Liam+conscience+bloodlust+whole lotta guilt.


That's not why. I've never thought of them like that. They aren't live action, and the show was. How can they be canon?

How can they be canon? Because Joss said so. Joss, the creator of the Buffyverse. They use different mediums; so what? The story, however distasteful, continues on. You can ignore them, have your own head canon, but you can't refute they're canon. They're official.
 
A
arabella
[No message]
I don't have my own head canon. I wish I could. But I can't. Because IT STILL WOULDN'T MATTER, BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED. BECAUSE NOTHING EXISTS IN THE BUFFYVERSE AETER THE SWORD CLANG IN NFA. It is not the show. It is not OUR show. And we're just supposed to accept that, because, what? Joss is Boss? No. We deserve more than that. WE DESERVE BETTER THAN THAT. WE ARE BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER FANS DAMN IT. AND WE DESERVE RESPECT FOR THAT. WE are the reason BUFFY ran seven seasons. WE are the reason ANGEL ran five. And we DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED like we're freaking watching SMALLVILLE! Depend on other mediums to fill in the blanks? We shouldn't have to! BUFFY was supposed to mean more than that. It was SUPPOSED to be better than that, better than being watered down from its former greatness and poured into a fifth rate medium when it deserves, when SHE deserves so much better.
 
I don't have my own head canon. I wish I could. But I can't. Because IT STILL WOULDN'T MATTER, BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED. BECAUSE NOTHING EXISTS IN THE BUFFYVERSE AETER THE SWORD CLANG IN NFA. It is not the show. It is not OUR show. And we're just supposed to accept that, because, what? Joss is Boss? No. We deserve more than that. WE DESERVE BETTER THAN THAT. WE ARE BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER FANS DAMN IT. AND WE DESERVE RESPECT FOR THAT. WE are the reason BUFFY ran seven seasons. WE are the reason ANGEL ran five. And we DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED like we're freaking watching SMALLVILLE! Depend on other mediums to fill in the blanks? We shouldn't have to! BUFFY was supposed to mean more than that. It was SUPPOSED to be better than that, better than being watered down from its former greatness and poured into a fifth rate medium when it deserves, when SHE deserves so much better.

It's just a story... and it's Joss's story. Not the fans...we're just fans.

And to get back on track, [MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION], your equation is exactly how I saw Angel and Angelus. And I fully agree that both he and Spike should be held equally responsible.
 
Back
Top Bottom