Should Angel Have Told Buffy?

white avenger

white avenger
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Nineteen days after the Hellmouth is closed and Sunnydale is destroyed, and an incorporeal Spike pops up in Angel's office at Wolfram & Hart. My question is, knowing how Buffy felt about Spike, knowing that she believed him lost to her forever, should Angel, as a caring friend, have tried to contact Buffy to tell her that Spike was back? And if not, why not?

Personally, I think that if Angel cared as much for Buffy as he claimed to, he would have felt obligated to at least put forth the effort of telling her and easing at least that portion of her grief at the loss of friends and loved ones in the battle. Not doing so seems to me to be an act of pure jealousy or another instance if Angel's bad habit of making decisions for others without consulting them first.
 
Nineteen days after the Hellmouth is closed and Sunnydale is destroyed, and an incorporeal Spike pops up in Angel's office at Wolfram & Hart. My question is, knowing how Buffy felt about Spike, knowing that she believed him lost to her forever, should Angel, as a caring friend, have tried to contact Buffy to tell her that Spike was back? And if not, why not?

Personally, I think that if Angel cared as much for Buffy as he claimed to, he would have felt obligated to at least put forth the effort of telling her and easing at least that portion of her grief at the loss of friends and loved ones in the battle. Not doing so seems to me to be an act of pure jealousy or another instance if Angel's bad habit of making decisions for others without consulting them first.

Nope, absolutely not. It's nothing to do with him. You can't lay the blame on Angel here for what Spike should have done. If there was anybody who was going to tell Buffy Spike was alive it was him, and nothing to do with anybody else.

There's obviously a reason as to why Spike didn't tell her, or maybe hasn't told her yet. In fact, if you are suggesting that this is Angel making decisions for people again, I would have to completely disagree. If Angel had have told Buffy about Spike being alive, THAT would have been making decisions for people. He would have been making the decision for Spike, when the ball was entirely in his court. So, no, Angel should absolutely not have intervened in this instance, regardless of how much he cared for Buffy.

I don't think Spike would have jumped at the chance to tell her had the situation been reversed, either.

Angel cannot be blamed for Spike's misgivings in not alerting Buffy herself. Angel is not to blame for why there hasn't been a Spuffy reconciliation yet, Spike is.
 
W
Wesley
Yay Flannen, you make my job so much easier.
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
Exactly what I think. :)
E
Emzzie
My thoughts as well
Well why Spike didn't called her herself. It's not Angels job. What would he say? "Hello biggest love of my life your dead lover is back to life!". It's not Angel's place.
 
Nope, absolutely not. It's nothing to do with him. You can't lay the blame on Angel here for what Spike should have done. If there was anybody who was going to tell Buffy Spike was alive it was him, and nothing to do with anybody else.

There's obviously a reason as to why Spike didn't tell her, or maybe hasn't told her yet. In fact, if you are suggesting that this is Angel making decisions for people again, I would have to completely disagree. If Angel had have told Buffy about Spike being alive, THAT would have been making decisions for people. He would have been making the decision for Spike, when the ball was entirely in his court. So, no, Angel should absolutely not have intervened in this instance, regardless of how much he cared for Buffy.

I don't think Spike would have jumped at the chance to tell her had the situation been reversed, either.

Angel cannot be blamed for Spike's misgivings in not alerting Buffy herself. Angel is not to blame for why there hasn't been a Spuffy reconciliation yet, Spike is.

(Somehow, I just knew that the "nothing to do with him" argument would come up)

Interfering in things that have nothing to do with him when it comes to Buffy seems to be Angel's favorite pastime. from his initial decision to come to Sunnydale in the first place to his decision to have a detective follow the Slayer around in Rome. If lurking was a martial art, Angel would have his black belt by now. (I know, Spike did some lurking to, primarily in Seasons 4 and 5, but I would award him only a green belt). The only difference here is that he would be reuniting her with someone who she cared about, but he personally hated, kind of like his and Spike's attempt to separate who they thought was Buffy and someone who they both hated, for her own good, of course.

As for the "reason why Spike didn't tell her," I seem to recall expressing concern for Buffy and an attempt to go and find her as being the first things that Spike tried to do when he reappeared in Angel's office. The reason that you cite didn't come til several episodes later.

Angel hated Spike. Of that there can be little argument. But he has been making decisions that concern him for as long as Spike has been a vampire. He loved Buffy. There's no argument there. If he knew, as he almost certainly did, that she was mourning all of the casualties from Sunnydale, he would no doubt have also known that finding out that one of the ones whose death she felt responsible for was, in fact, not dead (or as "not dead" as a vampire could possibly be) would have eased at least a part of her pain. That's not interfering, that's being a friend. Also, that's exactly the same thing that he did by returning to Sunnydale when Joyce died. That had nothing to do with him either. Arguably, Joyce didn't even like Angel, or, if she did, she liked Spike more (she never fixed hot chocolate with little mushrooms for Angel [That's a joke, Flan, you can laugh now])

Telling Buffy that Spike had returned would be no different than trying to give comfort to her when her mother died. If one is what a friend would do, then so would the other.

To put it on a more personal note, I lost good friends in Southeast Asia, one of whom was never accounted for. If he were to have been found, I would most certainly consider it the obligation of whoever found him to notify his family and friends. Now, you might argue that the notification of the discovery of a dead soldier's remains and the notification that someone who had been given up for dead and has suddenly returned are two different things, but I can see no difference at all.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
(Somehow, I just knew that the "nothing to do with him" argument would come up)

Interfering in things that have nothing to do with him when it comes to Buffy seems to be Angel's favorite pastime. from his initial decision to come to Sunnydale in the first place to his decision to have a detective follow the Slayer around in Rome. If lurking was a martial art, Angel would have his black belt by now. (I know, Spike did some lurking to, primarily in Seasons 4 and 5, but I would award him only a green belt). The only difference here is that he would be reuniting her with someone who she cared about, but he personally hated, kind of like his and Spike's attempt to separate who they thought was Buffy and someone who they both hated, for her own good, of course.

As for the "reason why Spike didn't tell her," I seem to recall expressing concern for Buffy and an attempt to go and find her as being the first things that Spike tried to do when he reappeared in Angel's office. The reason that you cite didn't come til several episodes later.

Angel hated Spike. Of that there can be little argument. But he has been making decisions that concern him for as long as Spike has been a vampire. He loved Buffy. There's no argument there. If he knew, as he almost certainly did, that she was mourning all of the casualties from Sunnydale, he would no doubt have also known that finding out that one of the ones whose death she felt responsible for was, in fact, not dead (or as "not dead" as a vampire could possibly be) would have eased at least a part of her pain. That's not interfering, that's being a friend. Also, that's exactly the same thing that he did by returning to Sunnydale when Joyce died. That had nothing to do with him either. Arguably, Joyce didn't even like Angel, or, if she did, she liked Spike more (she never fixed hot chocolate with little mushrooms for Angel [That's a joke, Flan, you can laugh now])

Telling Buffy that Spike had returned would be no different than trying to give comfort to her when her mother died. If one is what a friend would do, then so would the other.

Considering that you do see Angel making decisions for people, primarily Buffy, as one of Angel's past times, and you hold that against him, I don't see how you can now be annoyed that he didn't do that? It's interesting that now it benefits Spike/Spuffy it wouldn't have been interfering? It seems you don't have a fixed notion of what interfering pertains to, if you think that Angel getting involved with Spike and Buffy's relationship would be the opposite. Or, like I said you don't mind him interfering when it suits Spuffy?

And maybe it was one of Spike's first thoughts when he returned? So why he didn't fully go through with it? His decision not to do so is entirely his own, whichever you look at it. Spike IS to blame.

And yes, Angel hated Spike. But Spike also hated Angel which is why I think that if it had been the other way around Spike wouldn't have interfered either. The only thing he would have interfered with is if Angel had been doing something that he realised he could 'accidentally' get Buffy to see and result in ending the relationship. Remember when Spike interfered with Riley and Buffy and showed her what Riley was up to in a really horrible way? Or is that one ok, cos Spike did it and not Angel? 😉

And I agree with you about Joyce, Angel didn't have as good a relationship with her as Spike did. (By the way I think it was marshmallows. Mushrooms in hot chocolate would be gross. That's me joking this time 😛) But he still wanted to come to Buffy's aid, and maybe that IS because he doesn't hate Joyce like he does Spike. But that still doesn't mean the blame lies with him. Whatever the arguments are for why Angel should have told Buffy, it doesn't take the sole responsibility away from Spike and that he should have been the one making that call.

And if you don't mind, I'd rather not make any comment on your last paragraph referring to your personal note because I don't feel comfortable in doing so. I wouldn't want to cause any offence by saying the wrong thing that ends up taking it out of the context of the series. 🙂
 
Spike comes back from the dead...normally since he loves Buffy so much the first thing he would do is phone her or go find her...cause if i were a man in love that's what i would do...when Buffy came back from the dead Willow phoned Cordy and informed AI

Spike has been unwilling to inform Buffy,he had the chance with Andrew but he didn't order him to do so...what does Angel has to do with that?informing Buffy would be like going against Spike...i know Angel appears to hate Spike and vice versa but they are trying to work together in season 5 and by doing that would be making decisions for other people
 
Considering that you do see Angel making decisions for people, primarily Buffy, as one of Angel's past times, and you hold that against him, I don't see how you can now be annoyed that he didn't do that? It's interesting that now it benefits Spike/Spuffy it wouldn't have been interfering? It seems you don't have a fixed notion of what interfering pertains to, if you think that Angel getting involved with Spike and Buffy's relationship would be the opposite. Or, like I said you don't mind him interfering when it suits Spuffy?

And maybe it was one of Spike's first thoughts when he returned? So why he didn't fully go through with it? His decision not to do so is entirely his own, whichever you look at it. Spike IS to blame.

And yes, Angel hated Spike. But Spike also hated Angel which is why I think that if it had been the other way around Spike wouldn't have interfered either. The only thing he would have interfered with is if Angel had been doing something that he realised he could 'accidentally' get Buffy to see and result in ending the relationship. Remember when Spike interfered with Riley and Buffy and showed her what Riley was up to in a really horrible way? Or is that one ok, cos Spike did it and not Angel? 😉

And I agree with you about Joyce, Angel didn't have as good a relationship with her as Spike did. (By the way I think it was marshmallows. Mushrooms in hot chocolate would be gross. That's me joking this time 😛) But he still wanted to come to Buffy's aid, and maybe that IS because he doesn't hate Joyce like he does Spike. But that still doesn't mean the blame lies with him. Whatever the arguments are for why Angel should have told Buffy, it doesn't take the sole responsibility away from Spike and that he should have been the one making that call.

And if you don't mind, I'd rather not make any comment on your last paragraph referring to your personal note because I don't feel comfortable in doing so. I wouldn't want to cause any offence by saying the wrong thing that ends up taking it out of the context of the series. 🙂

(First off, please forgive me for the inclusion of that last paragraph. It is a subject inappropriate and had no business being included here)

Now:

Yes, I most certainly do see Angel making decisions for Buffy and everyone else, and his consistent excuse for doing so is that it is "for their own good." My assertion is that, if he is so intent upon easing the pain and suffering of those people who he cares for, why, in this case, when doing so would have almost certainly been appreciated by those concerned, did he fail to do so? If Angel's mission is to help the helpless, or hopeless, why couldn't he have helped poor helpless, incorporeal Spike, and, at the same time, given hope to poor, grieving Buffy, who had given up hope of ever seeing someone who she said that she loved? One of the times when his interference would have actually resulted in making someone happy, and he fails to act. Or maybe not calling Buffy actually WAS his decision. For her own good, of course.

And there was a mutual hate thing going on between Spike and Riley at one time, and Spike never hesitated to tell Buffy about his vampire prostitute addiction. For her own good, of course.

Come to think of it, both Spike and Angel, despite acting in exactly the opposite way, managed to achieve the same result. They kept Buffy away from someone who she loved For her own good, of course. Kind of ironic, when you look at it that way.
 
I doubt Angel would have told Spike considering he didn't even tell the Burkles what happened to Fred, which is something I do consider kind bad, although that wasn't soley down to Angel either.

I believe that he wasn't willing to acknowledge Spike existence himself let alone inform Buffy.

As for Spike doing the same? Well he admitted that if he could, he'd keep Buffy away from Angel.

Anyway the only way Buffy could have seen incorporeal Spike is if she went to W&H and I doubt that Angel wanted her near that place depsite his unconvincing company line. More than anything I doubt he wanted Buffy to see him in that position.

As for corporeal Spike, nope, I agree with Flannen, that's all Spike. He actually went to find Buffy but bottled it. Once Spike is capable of seeing her it's an issue between the two of them.
 
I agree that if anyone were to inform Buffy of Spike's return, it should have been Spike himself. But that doesn't mean Angel's choice to stay out of this one wasn't motivated by pure jealousy. I'm fairly certain that if Spike and Buffy never developed feelings for each other and they were still enemies the way they were in Season 2 and Spike had suddenly returned from the dead (sort of), Angel would have called Buffy to warn her right away. But since at the time of Spike's departure he was the man in Buffy's life, he decides to stay out of it. He picks and chooses which situations to get involved with depending on how much of Buffy's "happiness" and "well being" benefits him as well. Just cause Angel's decision to not get involved just happened to be the right one this time, doesn't mean the reason behind it is right. If Buffy had the intentions of putting a stake through Spike's heart if she ever saw him again, Angel would have probably tied him up, put him in a box, and FedEx'd him over to Rome. But since their reunion would probably result in hugs, kisses, and kinky sex, Angel turns a blind eye to the whole thing.
 
T
thevikingsgirl
[No message]
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
LMFAO! I just saw your new siggy- LOVE IT!!! :)
I too think Spike should take responsability for his own "I'm Alive-ish" announcement. I know he couldn't pick up a phone at that particular point in time but, hey, couldn't he dictate an e-mail? I'm sure he could ahve charmed one of the Gals in the typing pool to do it for him.

As to why Angel didn't tell Buffy, well, I think its because he doesn't actually know where Buffy is. You watch his body language in that opening scene of Just Rewards. Spike asks after Buffy, “Europe, last I heard from her” is all the information Angel gives. He looks sideways, shifts his eyes as one does when they are trying to get away with misinformation or trying to seem more knowledgeable than they actually are. Could it be that Angel and Buffy have not communicated in the intervening nineteen days since the destruction of Sunnydale? Has Angel already got his Wolfram and Hart resources trying to track her moves? Is it possible he knows as little of Buffy’s movements as Spike currently does?

Hmmmm

But yeah, Spike - pick up the phone alrready!
 
Asking this is no different than asking why Andrew didn't tell Buffy about Spike. Or maybe he has, and we just don't know it yet.

While Spike > Angel, Angel is not the one at fault here. Spike should have been man enough to let the woman he loves know that he is alive, after she had been thinking of him as dead for at least a year.
 
I agree that if anyone were to inform Buffy of Spike's return, it should have been Spike himself. But that doesn't mean Angel's choice to stay out of this one wasn't motivated by pure jealousy. I'm fairly certain that if Spike and Buffy never developed feelings for each other and they were still enemies the way they were in Season 2 and Spike had suddenly returned from the dead (sort of), Angel would have called Buffy to warn her right away. But since at the time of Spike's departure he was the man in Buffy's life, he decides to stay out of it. He picks and chooses which situations to get involved with depending on how much of Buffy's "happiness" and "well being" benefits him as well. Just cause Angel's decision to not get involved just happened to be the right one this time, doesn't mean the reason behind it is right. If Buffy had the intentions of putting a stake through Spike's heart if she ever saw him again, Angel would have probably tied him up, put him in a box, and FedEx'd him over to Rome. But since their reunion would probably result in hugs, kisses, and kinky sex, Angel turns a blind eye to the whole thing.

This may be true, but so what? Spike would have done exactly the same thing if it was the other way round. So the guy let himself be ruled by his emotions for a while?

I just get the impression that for some people Angel just can't win. He's berated for interfering and then berated when he decides not to get involved in something.

And yes maybe Angel does and pick choose when he decides to intervene but only as much as some fans pick and choose when he's right or wrong for doing it.

And Tranq, that's a nice observation you made there, I like it. 🙂
 
I just get the impression that for some people Angel just can't win.

Most definitely. If he told Buffy people would disliked the fact that he did something Spike didn't want. Maybe Angel didn't tell out of jealousy but I don't care. I wouldn't have cared much what ever he did in this question. If anyone should have told her it should have been Spike.

Getting someone to call Buffy for him on speakerphone and when leave the room to give privacy wouldn't have been that difficult.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Good idea, but he probably didn't have the area code for "somewhere in Europe," and trying to get Giles to relay a message to Buffy for him? Riiiiiiiight! Can you say "Doomed from the start"?
Everyone's saying that it was up to Spike to tell Buffy, but if you think about it Spike was a ghost for quite a while when he came to LA. Surely, Angel could have told Spike during that time? Spike couldn't have exactly done anything when he was incorporeal and could barely leave the W&H building, never mind LA.

I mean, when Spike was alive again; sure he could have told Buffy, and maybe he plans to, but wouldn't it have been quite awkward for either Spike or Angel to do so? I mean, Buffy had told Spike he loved her and his response was 'No you don't, but thanks for saying it', what exactly could he say after that? It would have been a little weird. And as pointed out, I'm sure Angel would have been too jealous, considering they both were in love with Buffy.

And also, is no-one thinking of The Immortal? Maybe Spike would have found the time to tell Buffy, if he hadn't found out that something was going on between the Immortal and Buffy.
 
"making decisions for others without consulting them first."

You mean like ignoring Spike's request and divulging information he specifically doesn't want revealed?
 
white avenger
white avenger
No, like informing Buffy that someone who she cared very deeply for was back, and possibly only for a short time, so that they could have those last few hours together in order to say goodbye properly.
If you look at it, Angel had a lot of crap to worry about. He'd just gotten back from fighting/brutally killing his OWN black ops team. He's rallying his troops, all of a sudden Spike is there with his game face on and comes snarling right at Angel and passes right through him!

So they chitchat for a bit and Spike says 'screw you I'm going to go see Buffy'. OK bye Spike! Buffy will find out when you get there, not my problem. By the time they figure out that Spike is connected to L.A. Angel has to deal with the fall out of 'internment acquisitions' being closed and Hainsley trying to kill him. Spike helps him with that but not after getting a few good shots in.

If that's not enough Spike is disappearing and reappearing pretty regularly at this point and Wes/Fred can't figure out why. Does Angel really want to tell the Buffster Spike is back if it's only for a period of hours at a time? Why get her hopes up if he's just going to end up in Hell? That would probably make her feel worse.

By the time they figure out Pavayne was up to his shenanigans and they stop him, Spike says he doesn't WANT to tell Buffy that he's back, he left on the highest of high notes etc. etc.

So really with Angel being a little busy trying to run an inter-dimensional evil law firm and Spike being unreliable (a.k.a. taking brief trips to hell) then actively not wanting to tell her, Angel is in the clear.


When oh when will you stop your war on poor Angel.
 
Flannen
Flannen
See, you make my job easier too! :p And totally agree with the last line.
PrincessBuffy16
PrincessBuffy16
I agree so much with you :)
Kana
Kana
Spot on!
Good idea, but he probably didn't have the area code for "somewhere in Europe," and trying to get Giles to relay a message to Buffy for him? Riiiiiiiight! Can you say "Doomed from the start"?

So making a phonecall is a bad idea. What about email? Smoke signals? What way do you expect Angel to tell Buffy? Dropping everything just to go looking for her to tell her that Spike has come back? Give me a break. What easy way is there for Angel to get the message to Buffy that Spike couldn't have done?

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 PM ----------

Now, you might argue that the notification of the discovery of a dead soldier's remains and the notification that someone who had been given up for dead and has suddenly returned are two different things, but I can see no difference at all.

So to you there isn't any difference when one could break the news himself and the other one can't since one is dead and one alive?
 
Flannen
Flannen
Yup. The exact same problems Spike would have reaching her, were also going to problems for Angel. I nearly posted that before realising I would just be repeating you :p
Spike is disappearing and reappearing pretty regularly at this point and Wes/Fred can't figure out why. Does Angel really want to tell the Buffster Spike is back if it's only for a period of hours at a time? Why get her hopes up if he's just going to end up in Hell? That would probably make her feel worse.


So really with Angel being a little busy trying to run an inter-dimensional evil law firm and Spike being unreliable (a.k.a. taking brief trips to hell) then actively not wanting to tell her, Angel is in the clear.


When oh when will you stop your war on poor Angel.

The very point that he actually is back for hours at a time and might actually end up permanently in hell at any moment is precisely why Angel should have used every resource at his disposal to locate Buffy and tell her that Spike was back. Given what seemed at that moment to be a very limited time remaining, allowing Buffy and Spike to share those final moments, if only out of consideration for the fact that they were comrades at arms in the fight against evil, the pain and suffering that Spike had endured in refusing to betray Buffy and Dawn to Glory, and some begrudging respect for the fact that, for the sake of the woman they both loved, Spike had done the unbelievable in willingly regaining his soul (I have no doubt that Angel was always jealous of that). It's what would be expected, if not demanded, of any man who would dare to think of himself as honorable. It's what any man who claimed to love a woman would have done. It's what Illyria did in Wes's final moments when she "lied" to him:allowed him to spend those final moments with someone he loved.

I guess Illyria knows more about honor and consideration for a fallen warrior than Angel does.

And I will end my war against Angel when, and only when, he admits that astronauts really can beat cave men.
 
W
Wesley
Angel was pro-Astronaut, Spike was pro-Caveman.
The very point that he actually is back for hours at a time and might actually end up permanently in hell at any moment is precisely why Angel should have used every resource at his disposal to locate Buffy and tell her that Spike was back. Given what seemed at that moment to be a very limited time remaining, allowing Buffy and Spike to share those final moments, if only out of consideration for the fact that they were comrades at arms in the fight against evil, the pain and suffering that Spike had endured in refusing to betray Buffy and Dawn to Glory, and some begrudging respect for the fact that, for the sake of the woman they both loved, Spike had done the unbelievable in willingly regaining his soul (I have no doubt that Angel was always jealous of that). It's what would be expected, if not demanded, of any man who would dare to think of himself as honorable. It's what any man who claimed to love a woman would have done. It's what Illyria did in Wes's final moments when she "lied" to him:allowed him to spend those final moments with someone he loved.

I guess Illyria knows more about honor and consideration for a fallen warrior than Angel does.

And I will end my war against Angel when, and only when, he admits that astronauts really can beat cave men.

It depends on what you consider to be honourable and considerate. Personally I wouldn't equate this with what happened with Wes regarding Illyria. And to be honest I wouldn't say that was honourable. It was nice, sure, and it gave everyone another fleeting Fresley moment but it was still nothing but a pretence which wouldn't necessarily appeal to me myself.

I'd side more with Wesley regarding the uncertainty of Spike actually staying within this dimension. Angel might have considered that it would cause Buffy more pain to think Spike was back and then for him not to be. Or to be perfectly I don't think Angel cared either way because it was nothing at all to do with him. Honestly, if he had have got involved and been the one to tell Buffy, the Spuffy consensus would be that Angel was totally out of order for being the one to break the 'good news' (pfft) and not let Spike be the one to tell her.

Which is still what this comes down to? Do you honestly think the real problem is that Angel didn't tell her? When it clearly is, for most part of the responses in this thread, Spike's call and Spike's only.

And like Wesley said, Angel had his own war to wage, why would he be waste time concerning himself in a situation between two people who would probably both be pissed at him for getting involved in.
 
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