Should the Oldest recorded symbol be treated with fear and hatred because of misuse?

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Today I was talking to my neighbour. A 15 year old Boy, studying the history of the written word and language as a hobby, when he told me a remarkable thing. He was thrown out of his classroom because he had a picture of a swastica on his book.
Now to me this is totally wrong.
Granted it has a strong link with one of the worst periods of not only the 20th century but of mankinds history in total, but surely in 2005 its unnacceptible to punish someone for using the symbol.
The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh. Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

I'm hoping to get a good debate from this so please, only answer if you have a relevant POV, or are interested in the topic.
If you wish to make a comment that you dont find suitible for the forum, please contact me over PM's.
There are many sites with adequate information on the history of the symbol....I hope it becomes an interesting topic.
 
As I understand it, the swastika is a symbol of good luck and prosperity. But ever since it was appropriated by the Nazis, it's had a very negative connotation.

I don't think that it's good that people associate the swastika with hatred and racism, but they do. And until they don't, I don't think that it should be casually used on the cover of someone's book or anywhere else.

Don't get me wrong, it sucks that your neighbor was thrown out of class, but the swastika is very offensive to a lot of people. I'm sure many people don't even know that it's not a negative symbol. But the meaning of things change, and the meaning of the swastika is now, in most peoples' eyes, very bad.
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Very well said :)
BUt thats also the point....The Nazi Party and its Part in 20th Century World history will never be forgotten. The longer people are forced to disassociate themselves from the symbol, the more likely it will disappear from culture as the positive image it had for millenia, and become forever more linked with Naziism. However, by reclaiming the true heritage now, while that history is still in living memory, we can mould it back to what it meant, stood for.
 
Yes, I understand what you're saying, but to reclaim the symbol's heritage, someone would need to educate the world on its true meaning. You can't just use the swastika and expect people to understand what its historical meaning is. Most people will assume that you're using it in an offensive way.
 
But isnt that what the Teacher should have done...instead of telling a group of 15 year olds that its bad....explain to them what it means....every single one of those plus friends will now assoiciate that symbol with punishment
 
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ProphecyGirl
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Thing is, I doubt your neighbor was drawing the symbol in its "ancient" context. In my opinion, the symbol, though it's been around a very long time, it isn't used anymore except as a symbol of Nazism.

In the world we live in, where kids can be easily influenced by neo-Nazi propaganda, I can understand a school not wanting to open the floodgates for problems by ignoring warning signs.

Yes, it's just a symbol, and perhaps kicking him out of class was a little too harsh. But he definitely should have been talked to about what that symbol means to some people, and why it's not a philosophy he should be following (if he is).
 
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ProphecyGirl
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polexia
very very true
But isnt that what the Teacher should have done...instead of telling a group of 15 year olds that its bad....explain to them what it means....every single one of those plus friends will now assoiciate that symbol with punishment
Okay, but who is supposed to tell the teacher what it means? They might not know that it's not necessarily a Nazi symbol. That's what it's been associated with for so long, it's taken on that meaning.
 
I've seen the Text Book....its has just the symbol with the line 'life and good luck' written underneath, which is what its original association is. Him being Hindu, it has still strong links to his culture, and yes as i stated before, as his hobby includes the the study of old symbols, it WAS in that format(his Father has the same hobby and has taught him it since early childhood).

The point is, that symbol has a place in our history, even society today, he has no 'neo-nazi' leanings, the symbol was written on a text book he purchased so it wasnt even school property.....

Fact is IF you want people to not look at something with fear and hatred, you educate them, but punishing someone with no explanation to others only serves to propgate that fear.

Its not as though the symbol its self is kept out of Schools....most History classes teach about WW2....so why can't they at the same time, explain where the symbol came from, what it actually represents and why it has a place.
 
Okay, but who is supposed to tell the teacher what it means? They might not know that it's not necessarily a Nazi symbol. That's what it's been associated with for so long, it's taken on that meaning.

Thats a totally invalid point. Its not the teachers place to punish because of their ignorance, if she doesnt understand something, then she too must learn.

Ignorance of something is never the excuse
 
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polexia
i don't beleive its ignorance.. i don't mean to be a sore tumb or anything like that.. but what about the people who died under that symbol... it doesn't matter what it really ment, its still tainted!!!
But in this case, her ignorance resulted in a student being ejected from class, a certain level of ridicule from other students, a consultation with the headmaster, 30 school children immediately told that the symbol is completely wrong, with only the comment that its wrong to show it and even a social worker asking for a further consultation.....
 
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polexia
to be quite honest, i don't think she was being ignorant.. i think your neightbor, even though he ment well, and used it on basis of it original meaning, should have been more careful with it, for the teacher is not the only one who "misunderstands"
So she made a mistake, everybody does. No matter what the roots of the swastika symbol are, it will always be associated with the Nazi Party. You can't change that. People will always be offended by it, no matter how enlightened they are about its history.
 
But the very fact the image was changed to represent the Nazi party indicates its possible to change it.....again, the fact she made a mistake is not a valid excuse, especially for someone in a position of power and authority...

The symbol has a large significance to many cultures including lost ones, so the idae that we should write it off, because its had a negative run, is quite frankly preposterous........
 
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ProphecyGirl
before the nazis used it it wasn't a well known symbol. but as im part of a culture who used the symbol. we recognize change. i doubt you're a part of it.
I'm not saying we should write it off. But if you believe so strongly that peoples' views should be changed about the symbol, then you have to do something about it. You can't just blame other people for not knowing what you know.

Dia DeLa Muerte said:
again, the fact she made a mistake is not a valid excuse, especially for someone in a position of power and authority
Well, just because someone is in a postion of power and authority doesn't mean that they can't make mistakes. They don't know everything just because they're teachers.
 
But thats the point....they need educating.....

as for the mistake.....again, her failure to know the facts have resulted in something else....Now i know that the kid didnt argue back, a number of classmates told me when i was talking to him, and even the head told his parents, she automatically ejected him...
 
In the course of the day, in a busy school building (trust me, there is not enough time!), there was not enough adequate time to notify all the personnel and students in the building about the 'true' meaning of a swastika, and why this student was thrown out for the day. That person will be back tomorrow, assuming, and eventually everything will die down. The reason for the extra attention is to counsel or prevent the student from causing harm to themselves or others. Without speaking to the child, one cannot know the true nature of what the symbol was implied to mean.

The student was not thrown out because he/she had a swaztika printed on a notebook. The student was thrown out for the mere protection of the rights of the school children. Weapons, gang colors, drug/alcohol clothing, and even religious symbols are not allowed in schools, therefore the swastika must follow, no matter the intention.

Lets say that student comes to school in gang color apperal. Hypothetically, that student meant no harm, but suppose those colors were representative of a religious ceremony or event. Even though the colors were used innocently and even praising one's religion, it is still seen as gang 'warfare' and is therefore not acceptable in school. In the public forum, people must deal with an amount of compliance for the rules.

The act under suspicion may not have been hostile, but it is viewed as hostile. The school system has rules it must follow to protect the students, personnel and community against harm. Therefore, it must do what it needs to do.


* and the answer to your thread question is: YES. Until the world is educated (and believe me it will probably never happen), this symbol is to be dealt with very sternly. It was the annihalation of people just for the power thrill of it. There are many symbols that mean the same that are dealt with the same severe thoughts: KKK, Rwanda genocide, Thanksgiving....
 
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ProphecyGirl
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polexia
well said
This is conjecture - but I think today people in that position (teachers/administrators) are just plain scared. They don't want to do nothing and then have something horrible happen on their watch. So they overcompensate.
 
This is conjecture - but I think today people in that position (teachers/administrators) are just plain scared. They don't want to do nothing and then have something horrible happen on their watch. So they overcompensate.


You are absoultely right! To be a teacher personally, you react most quickly and switftly to those situations that arise in your class that are most dangerous. You have administration to deal with, children to talk to (no matter the age level) and most likely many angry parents to soothe and accomodate. I have had many horrible things happen in my classroom, and it is not a good feeling. You feel inadequate, and you know that you are going to be putting out fires for a week. Therefore, teachers are taught to react immediately to situation and sort out the details after the 'danger' has been removed.
 
In the course of the day, in a busy school building (trust me, there is not enough time!), there was not enough adequate time to notify all the personnel and students in the building about the 'true' meaning of a swastika, and why this student was thrown out for the day. That person will be back tomorrow, assuming, and eventually everything will die down. The reason for the extra attention is to counsel or prevent the student from causing harm to themselves or others. Without speaking to the child, one cannot know the true nature of what the symbol was implied to mean.

One of the major events of the 20th century...the rise of the Nazi Party.....surely this is something that is taught in the context of history....it only takes a single lesson, to explain the positive origins of the symbol, and how it was misused. The Student has not been given fair time to defend his reason of the Swastica, not even to the head, he was just thrown out of class, had they of spoken to him, he would have explained its significance, especially as its well known about his hobby(he runs a little group doing it, apparently some students like it).


The student was not thrown out because he/she had a swaztika printed on a notebook. The student was thrown out for the mere protection of the rights of the school children. Weapons, gang colors, drug/alcohol clothing, and even religious symbols are not allowed in schools, therefore the swastika must follow, no matter the intention.

Well now thats not an issue here, i must say, Weapons obviously, Drug/Alcohol defo, but the area of the UK i'm in, gang colours are not an issue, religious symbols, clothing is not only allowed, its encouraged. The Swastica is not only part of his study/hobby, but also part of his heritage.

Lets say that student comes to school in gang color apperal. Hypothetically, that student meant no harm, but suppose those colors were representative of a religious ceremony or event. Even though the colors were used innocently and even praising one's religion, it is still seen as gang 'warfare' and is therefore not acceptable in school. In the public forum, people must deal with an amount of compliance for the rules.

Again, this point, though i see it, islost here as we dont have that issue. Religious events, ceremonies are encouraged, and gang colours arent an issue. There are symbols that have as much connection to a sinister history that are allowed, BECAUSE they have had there history given and the context....What i'm saying is, this Student shouldnt have been singled out and thrown out, there is every opportunity to tell the kid to place the book in his bag if its offensive, or even allow him to simply state why he thinks its acceptible for him to have it....like i say, he is known for his hobby.


* and the answer to your thread question is: YES. Until the world is educated (and believe me it will probably never happen), this symbol is to be dealt with very sternly. It was the annihalation of people just for the power thrill of it. There are many symbols that mean the same that are dealt with the same severe thoughts: KKK, Rwanda genocide, Thanksgiving....

But the point is, it is quite simple to educate. Ok i'm not a teacher, but if you tell someone who is learning about the history of that area, then telling them the origins of a symbol is part of that...
Ok...take this example......the US have just recently invaded Iraq...no genuine reason, just power politics........what if during the fight back, Iraq won......in 60 years Time the American Flag is demonised in the same way.....what would you do...explain to people its significance from the Days of Washington, or simply cast it aside and allow the rest of the world to demonise it...
Now the relevance here is that in the attacks on Iraq, the US Government(along with allies) killed many innocent civilians, and even the Iraqi government proved no threat to the US or any country.....BUT you(i dont mean you personally-i'm on about the allied government) believed you were doing it for the betterment of those people, NOW i dont try and justify these acts or the acts of the Nazi party, what i'm saying is that you would educate on the entire history of something, not just one point in time....ESPECIALLY 60 years after the incident ended....

This is conjecture - but I think today people in that position (teachers/administrators) are just plain scared. They don't want to do nothing and then have something horrible happen on their watch. So they overcompensate.

Thats an entirely fair point.....but my stance isnt that it should be ignored and let the child keep on showing the symbol....my problme is with the overaction woth lack of education......
 
Ok...take this example......the US have just recently invaded Iraq...no genuine reason, just power politics........what if during the fight back, Iraq won......in 60 years Time the American Flag is demonised in the same way.....what would you do...explain to people its significance from the Days of Washington, or simply cast it aside and allow the rest of the world to demonise it...
Now the relevance here is that in the attacks on Iraq, the US Government(along with allies) killed many innocent civilians, and even the Iraqi government proved no threat to the US or any country.....BUT you(i dont mean you personally-i'm on about the allied government) believed you were doing it for the betterment of those people, NOW i dont try and justify these acts or the acts of the Nazi party, what i'm saying is that you would educate on the entire history of something, not just one point in time....ESPECIALLY 60 years after the incident ended....
While I understand your trying to make an example, I don't think it's very easy to compare the USA invading Iraq to Hitler and his Nazis commiting mass genocide because of their intoloreance of other people.
 
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ProphecyGirl
thank you, very intelligent opinion.
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Edmund Blackadder
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