Should the Oldest recorded symbol be treated with fear and hatred because of misuse?

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When does the figure of how many people change from acceptable to unacceptable.....that figure for me is...0 acceptable...1+ unacceptable.......The example has merit, as they had no justification to invade Iraq, no just cause to bomb innocent civilians and kill them....Just as the Nazi Party had no justification to attacking other countries, and killing innocent people.....
 
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ProphecyGirl
you're so off. why dont you however try to find a linear discussion.
The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh. Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

-and-

As I understand it, the swastika is a symbol of good luck and prosperity. But ever since it was appropriated by the Nazis, it's had a very negative connotation.
Getting back to the central issue here, I understand your point, DDLM. Sure, it would be simple to change textbooks so that they give the true meaning behind the symbol appropriated by the Nazi Party along with the lessons of WWII, I think that would be a valuable lesson. Should they be so changed? I don't think so. Like it or not, the swastika does have a negative connotation because of it's misuse. Not only was it misused 60+ years ago (and if you think the Nazis didn't know the true meaning of that symbol when they started using it, you're naive), it is still in use today with the same meaning attached to it. Now, imagine that school children everywhere become educated on the true meaning of the swastika. Do you think, along with that education, will suddenly come an understanding between people of different races that we are all alike and all human and deserving of the same respect as such? No! Sixty years from now, people will still be using the swastika as a symbol of racial hatred, but with the added panache that it actually means (by ancient definition) good luck and prosperity. One more bullet to fire at the masses. The groups that use that symbol will now be able to say, "Look! We use a swastika....that in ancient times meant prosperity and all manner of good things...." "Why?" "Because we stand on the side of Right. And Good. And by using such a symbol to propagate our hatred and intolerance, we guarantee that we do the work of God!" (Or some such nonsense.) Maybe that's an extreme example, but I can see it happening. And sure, most of us are able to differentiate between that level of fanaticism and reality. But - there are zealots out there, and there are fanatics. They will take any opportunity they can find to further their cause and if that means they have to once again pervert the true meaning of the swastika, that opportunity is golden and they won't hesitate.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that your friend should have been given the opportunity to explain why he has that particular symbol on his book. The fact that he wasn't is just evidence of a knee-jerk reaction by school officials. He will, I hope, be afforded the chance during the talks he'll have with school administration, his teacher and the social worker. I hope he'll be given the chance to exhibit research proving his point. That will be one interesting conversation.....But I suspect that the school will not change their stance on displaying the swastika or any other symbols deemed inappropriate or offensive to others. That's just the way of public school systems everywhere, right or wrong.

And - all I have to say about our bombing innocent civilians in Iraq - I hope that you realize we did not target NON-military targets? Yes, innocents were killed, it's a fact of war. That may seem callous, and I don't necessarily agree with my govt's policy, I'm just making the statement. Hussein's policy was wholesale genocide of the Kurds (not to mention political dissidents.) Do you think he only targeted military targets? Hard to believe, since the Kurds are a nomadic people and have no military! You're a victim of the media.....look beyond. Again, I'm not saying I agree 100% with my govt's policies, because I don't. I think our foreign policy is horrible. But I DO believe that we are doing some good there.
 
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ProphecyGirl
I very much agree. once again....kids these days.
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Edmund Blackadder
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Ok, the Swastika is placed with Naziism...no getting away from it.....BUT that doesnt mean it should be.,...That Symbol is a large part of the Hindu and Buddist belief system, and is used ritually often.

http://www.redhotcurry.com/news/swastika.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4188141.stm

By simply putting it into the camp of the Nazi you are brushing away Millenia of use of it that still is in use today(see above article).
Its not a matter of changing text books, the matter is bring in other text books with more information regarding the true specrum of its use in all our cultural histories.
The fact is, by keeping the symbol as a negative one, you are oppressing other cultures that have it in a positive light, that have used it in ritual for millenia, because they have fear of showing it, as they will be branded a Nazi. The only way to stop this, educate people, change the symbol's negativity, to the positive one.
Of course i know the Nazi Gov's were aware of its symbolic nature, thats a large part of the reason they used it, to give there cause power, that doesnt take away the fact that by doing so, they now leave open to many people being persecuted because of it.
As a matter of point...it is very rare anything is 'suddenly'....thats why Education is needed across the board.

As for Iraq and the bombing of Military targets only....Well all i can say is we must be reading, watching and hearing different broadcasts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1224084,00.html <one of many examples.

As much as i abhore the idea of what Hussein was doing to the Kurds, (conveniently with Arms given him by the US and UK Govts just before), there was no justification for Gulf War 2. The First dealt with those issues, there was no mass genocide in Iraq of 1988, since the end, Hussein maybe a monster, but other then allowing his the torture and state executions of his people(Guantanamo Bay - As of July 1, 2005, the Death Penalty was authorized by 38 US states) he had commited no crime. People like to believe that there is some good coming from whats happened in Iraq, it helps them to think that the lives of the soldiers lost were not in vain, but the fact is, the soldiers(who are only following orders) shouldnt even be in the country in the first place.
Trust me, i'm not a victim of the media, one could actually throw a comment back stating your a victim of your countries propaganda, its not the case. The lines of this 'war' have never been less then completely clear...
 
You could teach the entire world what the symbol means and its history but that still won't stop people associating it with the nazis and it still wont stop causing offense to people
 
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ProphecyGirl
exactly and the majority of the world is offended by the image and what it NOW represents. majority rules.
Also when i went into a buddhist temple in thailand they had swatstika but it was back to front, is that actually the same thing
 
Also when i went into a buddhist temple in thailand they had swatstika but it was back to front, is that actually the same thing
I'm pretty sure it is - if you have a look at the BBC article that DDLM posted a link to above, you'll see a picture of a Buddhist temple decorated with a swastika.

Interestingly (to me anyway) according to the other link DDLM posted,the word "swastika" comes from a Sanskrit word and not German, which I'd always thought it did...just shows how ingrained the association with the Nazis is - I thought the word was German, even though I knew of the Hindu/Buddhist use of the symbol pre-dating Hitler...

I think, and it seems we all mostly agree on this point,that the kid's teacher was wrong in the way she reacted - possibly from her own ignorance or possibly because public servants today are over-worried about causing offence to anyone. However, if the illustration was in a reputable text book (which is how I understood DDLM's post) she should've used a bit more common sense. It sounds like the kid knew more than the teacher about the subject...
 
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Edmund Blackadder
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I'm sorry for your friend; I hope he will get a chance to explain the original meaning of the symbol.

I think the teacher acted correctly though. If one, in this modern day and age, in the Western world sees a swastika, it's more than likely to be connected to (Neo-) Nazis. Exhibiting symbols connected to this movement should not be condemned, especially not amongst young people in schools. I can't blame the teacher for not knowing the original meaning, simply (I think) because almost nobody knows; there is no valid reason to expect them to know it.

I don't know what subject that teacher taught, but let's for the sake of argument say that he/she was a teacher of chemistry. He/she would have no business knowing what the swastika symbol originally meant; he/she would have to know how molecules are built up, how and why chemical reactions take place, and how to explain all about this to children; knowing the ancient meaning behind this symbol is not a requirement for the job, nor should it be.

I understand your friend used the symbol with its ancient meaning, but it's very naive of him to think that people wouldn't associate it with Nazis. I understand he could try to explain the why and how, but nevertheless the negative connotations people have with it are rooted very deep, because it’s associated with something that has had such a profound impact on an immense number of lives. Therefore, one has to ask oneself whether it is really desirable to really change the meaning people give to it.

Surely, the Hindu meaning is the original, but nowadays far from the true meaning, at least here in the Western world. (Whether something like a "true" meaning exist at all is a subject for another time maybe.) A little comparison might be able to explain this argument fully. To stay with the topic of this board, let's discuss the character of Buffy. Originally, Kristy Swanson played Buffy, but most commonly the character is associated with Sarah Michelle Gellar. Surely, you don't want to argue that when we think of Buffy, we should think of Kristy rather than Sarah?

I don't think your friends is necessarily wrong in looking at it as a Hindu symbol, but he needs to accept that people around him will not look at it as such and because of the meaning that IS assigned to it by the majority, he needs to be more careful in his use of the symbol. I think it's unfair to say people ought to go learn the original meaning of the symbol. The power of a symbol lies in what it symbolises, prescribing people as to what it should symbolise to them is telling them what to think; freedom of the mind is one of the essentials of human life, taking that away is something only people like Nazis do.
 
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ProphecyGirl
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Edmund Blackadder
I do understand Your POV
There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.

Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?



swastikart2.gif

Clockwise
Swastika
swastikalft2.gif

Counter-Clockwise
Sauvastika

In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

The above is from a page giving a decent history of the symbol - here is the link http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

Yes, there is a problem that its associated with a recent dark history, but is that history any more dark then Jesus on the Cross, yet that image is allowed in the same classroom, in a school where 30% of the students are of Hindu religion, the teaching staff however are (all but one-a Hindu) Christian/Catholic/atheist in belief, they dont represent the diversity of the school, but do enforce there personal belief.

The point is, rather then throw away an important historical symbol, people should be eduacated on the history, its significance and its power.
Only then can people truly understand why it became so powerful under the use of the Nazi party, and also the education takes away the fear that is still obviously strongly associated with the symbol.
 
When does the figure of how many people change from acceptable to unacceptable.....that figure for me is...0 acceptable...1+ unacceptable.......The example has merit, as they had no justification to invade Iraq, no just cause to bomb innocent civilians and kill them....Just as the Nazi Party had no justification to attacking other countries, and killing innocent people.....
That statement is purely your opinion, and I think it's best to not get into a discussion of that here.
 
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ProphecyGirl
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I think your neighbour SHOULD have been allowed to have the symbol on his book, but the symbol is associated with the Nazi's and it is very easy to say 'Lets use the old meaning' but it is very hard to get people to think it, you can not just say 'ok this is what this symbol means you are to believe this, not what you usually think of' Its just not possible to change the 'meaning' of a symbol, because a few generations have grown up to believe this symbol was directly connected to the Nazi's.

Personally If I saw the symbol somewhere the first thing my mind would go to would be the Nazi's, I know its bad but it is what I associate it with.

Last thing the History Books in Ireland, or the one I used, did actually explain the origin of the Symbol and how it was taken by the Nazis, and that they did not create it.
 
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Edmund Blackadder
Its not wrong to think of the Nazi's with the symbol, just that it people should be educated on its full historical meaning
As did ours. But that doesn't mean people still don't associate it with Nazism. And it's a) not that Nazism doesn't exist anymore and b) not something that really should be forgotten...
 
I think the teacher acted correctly though. If one, in this modern day and age, in the Western world sees a swastika, it's more than likely to be connected to (Neo-) Nazis. Exhibiting symbols connected to this movement should not be condemned, especially not amongst young people in schools. I can't blame the teacher for not knowing the original meaning, simply (I think) because almost nobody knows; there is no valid reason to expect them to know it.

The point of fact is, we are in the modern day, in the werstern world, most of the people alive never experienced the power of the image, we only know it from what we are taught, and learn, IF at the same time as teaching it you give the meaning of the symbol in its full context, father then push that power, fear, evil and hatred onto another generation, you help them understand, the power and significance, BUT appreciate its overall significance to our civilisations entire history. Simply, a Christian is not taught to hate the Jewish, even though there is a long history of violence and hatred there.

I don't know what subject that teacher taught, but let's for the sake of argument say that he/she was a teacher of chemistry. He/she would have no business knowing what the swastika symbol originally meant; he/she would have to know how molecules are built up, how and why chemical reactions take place, and how to explain all about this to children; knowing the ancient meaning behind this symbol is not a requirement for the job, nor should it be.

Actually the Teacher was a History teacher, granted that doesnt mean they will know the history of everything, BUT that does mean when a child has a point of contention with something, then they should be open to the 'argument', allow the teen to have his POV put forth, and then, when everything is discussed, either accept his belief, or ask him to put the book away.

Surely, the Hindu meaning is the original, but nowadays far from the true meaning, at least here in the Western world. (Whether something like a "true" meaning exist at all is a subject for another time maybe.) A little comparison might be able to explain this argument fully. To stay with the topic of this board, let's discuss the character of Buffy. Originally, Kristy Swanson played Buffy, but most commonly the character is associated with Sarah Michelle Gellar. Surely, you don't want to argue that when we think of Buffy, we should think of Kristy rather than Sarah?

As much as i see your point, i must point out that i'm not asking for people to focus on one, what i think should happen is people acknowledge both histories. Both have great significance, one of peace, one of war. IF the Second World War was not a part of the national ciriculum, then fair enough, but as it stands, its a large part of it, thus the whole history should be. That gives people more knowledge on why such a symbol became so powerful, but also lends help to the idea that people wont be as scared of it.

before the nazis used it it wasn't a well known symbol. but as im part of a culture who used the symbol. we recognize change. i doubt you're a part of it.
you're so off. why dont you however try to find a linear discussion.

Prophecy Girl.....i mean this nicely....your talking out of your arse.
The symbol has been widely used in nearly every culture since almost the dawn of civilised man.. The Romans, the Greeks, the Phoenitians, The Celts, The Druids. The symbol was one of the most used by the whole of Europe for nearly a century before th Nazi Party adopted it, infact it was because it was so widely known that it was used.
One of the big movements, the Scouts, had it as a symbol
STAFF4.GIF

The US used it as a Insignia for flying squads
Patches.jpg

The US even matched it with there ultimate symbol, the flag,
postcard2.jpg


Change is necessary to all, but so is recognition of history. If people start having a selective memory in regards to history, forgetting some remembering others, then so much of our heritage as a race of humans, will be lost.
And i hardly see the necessity for three bad rep points from you.
 
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ProphecyGirl
your entire line is talking out your ass. i bet you were the fifteen year old child. its how youre reacting.
Hey! No name-calling! (And in the spirit of debate, it's best to keep our civility about us.) You DID say that commentary could be made here or in PM. You invited open or private discussion, so you'll have to live with it.
 
when the girl is just giving blank comments in Rep and the comments she is making are an attack, i;m posting my responce here..IF it had been done on PM then i would have answered there.
 
I didnt name call.....I told her to stop talking out of her ass....which is what she accused me of, apparently having a discussion WITH evidence is talking out of your ass while comments like she made are not, even though there is sufficient evidence to prove its more then just conjecture.....and as for the ignorant child...well again ALL her comments indicate she is acting like one.
 
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ProphecyGirl
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Well this is a lively disussion! Culture and symbols. It's definitely all about context and what meaning folks bring to it, right? A common name in cantonese may sound like an obscenity in english.

People often try to take back, own abusive names. Like Americans wear "Yank" as a badge of honor. And young African-Americans will use the "n" word as a term of comaraderie.

I'm all for free expression. Deeply offensive, abusive speech, fine. So be it. The more speech the better. Let the Klan and the Nazis have their pep rallies. Although, actual incitement to violence, bomb threats, exhorting someone specifically to murder or rape and pillage, no good.

I think it's possible to intimidate and shut timid people down with aggressive speech (I'm fairly timid), but what are you gonna do? Just plead for civility and common decency in debate I guess.

Having both tolerance and free expression can be tricky. At the other extreme, in the West, this kinda thing seems like over-the-top PC self-loathing, or fear, to me:

http://www.megastar.co.uk/meganews/news/2005/10/24/sMEG01MTEzMDE0ODY2Nzg.html



And I'm fascinated with Rowan Atkinson and his arguments against that religious hatred bill:

http://www.chortle.co.uk/news/oct05/religion201002.php
 
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Edmund Blackadder
Thanx for those links....very informative
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ProphecyGirl
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I've seen the Text Book....its has just the symbol with the line 'life and good luck' written underneath, which is what its original association is. Him being Hindu, it has still strong links to his culture...
I'm assuming that if he's Hindu then he's also Indian, yes? Under these circumstances then I find it staggering that a history teacher would think the kid was using it in its Nazi context. I'm not any sort of teacher/scholar/learned-man-of-the-world but I took it as a given that pretty much everybody, let alone history teachers, knew the swastika was an ancient sanskrit symbol (I must say I didn't know exactly what it meant) hijacked by the Nazis. So, if I saw an Indian person, or Asian or middle eastern person for that matter, sporting a swastika I would just know it was something to do with their culture and let it be. How can you possibly assume that an Indian guy is a Neo-Nazi white supremacist? At most you might take him aside and ensure that he knows what the symbol has come to mean in our culture. If there are also Jewish students in the class it would probably be a good idea to get all of them together and talk out the situation. Are they offended even though he's using it for what it means to his culture? If yes, then make sure he knows why and ask that he keep it to himself.

Now if its a white kid with a swastika on his school book that's a different matter. I think its fair to assume that he wouldn't be using it in its ancient cultural sense because he has been brought up knowing its significance to the western world. If he's got a skinhead and a bad attitude and tries to tell you it's a Sanskrit symbol meaning life and good luck, then you give the little smartarse a clip around the ears and send him straight to the principal's office!
 
Mr. Pointy
Mr. Pointy
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Indeed, thats part of the point in that the students wouldnt have said anything to be honest.....he'd had the book for a while....this was a a different class.....its the fact he was punished now, that the students believe they can bully him.

The point is the punishment he recieved for his culture, when its pretty obvious his motives are not a purist white supremasist nature, but rather some inate religious belief, use. I mean the guy studied teh history before he displayed it...just to make sure he wasnt causing offence
 
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Tucker's Cousin
With you 100%
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