Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[The Bronze]

Yeah, because why else is Spike in San Fran? Because of Buffy.

It's two fold though when you say because of Buffy. There's his personal feelings for Buffy which are important and no one is denying that. You're missing the second part though. Buffy is where the fight is, where the mission is. Currently the most important thing in the world is under Buffy's protection. It's the place to be for any one looking to fight the good fight. Buffy as always found evil or evil has found her. If you want to be involved then next to Buffy is where it's at.

Spike has been allowed to be Spike AWAY from Buffy but as soon as he's in her company again he devolves into stalker/love-sick puppy again. He still isn't his own man (see his quite frankly sad self-esteem issues when it comes to their present romance')

You'd have to be rammed full of so much self esteem you'd explode if you didn't have an issue with Angel coming back. Fate and universes and cosmic powers etc. have plotted to have them together. It's a no brainer that you'd feel awkward.

To be fair this does happen somewhat to Angel (see Twilight) but at least we don't have Angel hanging around his ex constantly, otherwise that would be equally sad.
He has the self-respect to stay gone for long periods and at least try and get over her.

It's not self respect, it's a simple admission that he can't be around Buffy. The situation is completely different to Spikes. Spike doesn't have a curse which is the main reason Angel couldn't be near Buffy. Also Spike wasn't exiled after trying the destroy the planet. I don't want to go into Angel too much though, just that the situations aren't the same.

And I don't recall Spike being that selfless/heroic in AtF to be honest, at least not compared to some.

Been a while since I read it but I'm fairly sure Spike managed to become a Lord of one of the districts and was providing a safe haven for as many people as he could.

The truth is, I like this world. You've got dog racing, Manchester United.

The comics are a few years behind right? Maybe Spike will stop trying to save the world once David Moyes becomes Manchester United manager.

 

[gite63]

If you want to be involved then next to Buffy is where it's at.

And Spike is working for the SF Vampire Task Force. I would like to read a title with him, Supernatural C.S.I. San Francisco.

Spike doesn't have a curse which is the main reason Angel couldn't be near Buffy.

Speaking of which, why has no one until now tried to break the curse?

Been a while since I read it but I'm fairly sure Spike managed to become a Lord of one of the districts and was providing a safe haven for as many people as he could.

He was working with Connor, who provided shelter; at a certain point, Spike saved so many people, that Connor hadn't space at his place anymore, so Spike kept them in his mansion (Playboy's). And Angel thanked him for having taken care of Connor.

 

[EVIL UU]

Speaking of which, why has no one until now tried to break the curse?

I don't know, why would anybody do that? I don't see a point - it's not like Angelus is any worse than Angel, I mean, after season 8.

 

[thetopher]

It's two fold though when you say because of Buffy. There's his personal feelings for Buffy which are important and no one is denying that. You're missing the second part though. Buffy is where the fight is, where the mission is.

Well that might've been true when the show had a Hellmouth to worry about (and nobody seems to worry about Cleveland weirdly enough) but now? Not so much. Where was the action in S9 around Buffy? Nowhere because she was pretty aimless- Spike still stuck around her though.

Basically Spike, once upon a time, did some stuff in his own comic away from Buffy- that was something. Now he's back hanging around her for no real good reason (sorry, but the Book isn't really a strong enough one).
Spike is there because he wants to be there, not because he's needed. I'm sorry but it makes me doubt his motives- there's lots of healthy self-interest there.

OT- I don't think Spike ever viewed 'atonement' as a motivator separate from Buffy for that long a time. But then I think that about Andrew too, so its not like he's alone in that.

You'd have to be rammed full of so much self esteem you'd explode if you didn't have an issue with Angel coming back. Fate and universes and cosmic powers etc. have plotted to have them together. It's a no brainer that you'd feel awkward.

Buffy and Angel parted ways by defying that 'universe-plan' though. It shouldn't be an issue.

And again, because Spike doesn't trust Buffy. He lies to her, hides the truth from her and still, after having her in his head and seeing all those horrors (and basically going 'eh, alright, I still like you) AND after hearing her finally say the 'L' word, he doubts her.
It's weak, man.
This is what he's pursuing for years (with Angel not even in the picture) so why is he so quick to sabotage/doubt it?

It's not self respect, it's a simple admission that he can't be around Buffy.

Up until Twilight that was a really tiny amount of the reasoning for Angel not being around Buffy. He left her in S3 because he was destined for something else, something more apparently (which is why the First was trying to turn/kill him because he was brought back from Hell) AND Angel understood that having a relationship with a vampire was pretty unhealthy (even a good vampire) that was only partly to do with the curse.

The sad thing is that Buffy, at 18, also knew this. But I guess she forgot or something. That's a separate argument though. 

This is an interesting point, however, is it just Spike's problem? Has Buffy ever dated an equal?

Physically? No. But emotionally there are now tons of people out there who are her equal and more. Riley, Faith and Willow for starters.

Hey, Willow's single right? 😛

 

[white avenger]

Speaking of which, why has no one until now tried to break (Angel's) curse?

We've never been told specifically, but probably because the spell used to give the soul to Angelus in the first place had to remain completely intact for it to continue. Removing any part of the curse, such as the "moment of perfect happiness" exemption, would nullify the spell completely, returning Angelus in all his evil glory. The two times that Angel has had his soul returned, that same Gypsy curse was used, so the entire curse remains intact.

If, by some means, a different ensoulment spell was discovered, assuming that there is one that a human witch could perform, (the spell used on Spike was performed by a demon, so most likely no human has the power required to use it) they could lock Angel up in a cage, nullify the Gypsy curse, then reinstate the soul permanently.

The question arises, of course, why couldn't something be written into the new Book Of Magic that could solve the problem. The idea that Angel wants to earn it, himself, through acts of redemption doesn't hold water, because he's apparently never going to reach that goal on his own. Every time that he gets close, he lets Dru and Darla eat a roomful of lawyers, sends all of Los Angeles to hell, or joins forces with an evil universe in a plot to destroy the world. It's the classic case of one "Aw, s**t" canceling a thousand "Attaboys." With that in mind, he might just as well accept things as they are, or get Buffy to write a few lines in the book and put an end to the curse. Surely by now, he knows that he can help the helpless just as easily without that extra baggage.

 

[EVIL UU]

The sad thing is that Buffy, at 18, also knew this. But I guess she forgot or something. That's a separate argument though.

Maybe Buffy wants to relive the passionate moments from her youth? In that, Yeah, I've still got it! sense, vamps are still crazy about me and all that? To hell with being an adult, just one more time! People have a hard time accepting it but, damn, Buffy got old. Maybe that's how she's dealing? I know that she said it but still, the whole Spike/Buffy thing did kinda come out of nowhere. You gotta ask, why now?

Hey, Willow's single right? 😛

I mean, between Andrew being gay and Buffy not being a paedophile as far as we know with a line like this: A month later you get bored and develop a sudden desire for Andrew? Willow? Giles? you just know it's bound to happen, it's like Willow's Take your time. It's not like we can start the wedding without you in Hell's Bells or Dawn's At least things can't get any crazier, right? in Spiral.

I'd be OK with that, personally, mostly to spite every self-righteous and self-entitled Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel shipper out there. Can you imagine the salt? Industrial production levels, galaxy cluster sized mines. It would be one of the most glorious, perfect and utterly beautiful f#%! you shippers, eat shit! statements in the recorded history and the thought of me being there to witness it, to rub it in their smug faces, to laugh and gloat and ridicule? It's almost too much like, there would be tears and all ;_; Also, it would give Willow *something* to do and justify all the subtext the comic seasons have been throwing at us like, for example, that scene with Buffy and Willow flying through San Francisco with flowers and shit, 'cause holy shit, that was gay!

 

[jom]

Well as they say "actions speak louder then words" and he did continue to fight evil with Angel and company. Compared to Angel it's still very early days.

And to be fair the coat he now wears is a copy and not the real deal so to speak.

you have a point. Im big fan of Spike and i wouldnt had wanted him to changed. He's great for the most part, and he's not Angel and shouldnt be.

You posted the conversation that Spike had with Angel after Dana the crazy slayer cut off his arms, that's what i wanted Spike to had with Buffy or even with himself after he gained his soul. An acknowledgement that he did a lot of harm. I wouldnt want Spike to be sad and regretfull a lot of the time a la Angel, but you know a heart to heart with buffy or himself woulf not had hurt.

Spike should had thrown Robin's mom coat to the ground when he beat Robin, Spike should had had more understanding that wearing the coat of someone you killed as a trophy is not a pleasant thing to do especially when the son of that someone is around . You cannot fault Robin for wanting revenge, he was very justifiable to do that just like HOLTZ was righteous on his hate on Angel even if Spike and angel had changed. There is a scene on Angel that i like a lot, After Connor cameback from hell dimension, Angel went after Holtz for revenge for taking connor. Angel had Holtz by the neck saying you took my son, Hotz just said you killed my my family, game set and match, Angel had to backed off.

 

[thetopher]

Another small point, but if this Spike didn't try and rape Buffy then he also didn't kill Nikki Woods and therefore has NO RIGHT to wear that coat. He didn't earn it, somebody else did. so he he should take it off.
But of course Spike acts like he did earn it, that he was responsible, so maybe he should act like he was/is responsible for the rest?

 

[Silverspike]

I think he already did, but hey ho.....whatever....

 

[The Bronze]

Another small point, but if this Spike didn't try and rape Buffy then he also didn't kill Nikki Woods and therefore has NO RIGHT to wear that coat. He didn't earn it, somebody else did. so he he should take it off.
But of course Spike acts like he did earn it, that he was responsible, so maybe he should act like he was/is responsible for the rest?

He's got the same right to wear it as he does anything else. I imagine most / all of his clothes acquired over the previous century were either taken from victims, purchased with stolen money or straight up stolen from shops. He didn't strike me as the kind of soulless vampire to go out and do an honest days work for a fair days pay. So he could either burn his wardrobe and take the naturist approach to life or accept that what he wears won't actually bring anyone back from the dead and move on with his unlife. Doesn't seem a lot of point making empty gestures towards inanimate objects to me.

 

[thetopher]

He's got the same right to wear it as he does anything else. I imagine most / all of his clothes acquired over the previous century were either taken from victims, purchased with stolen money or straight up stolen from shops.

Of course its entirely different situation for two main reasons.

1) It's obvious to everybody that the coat isn't just an article of clothing to Spike, it's a psychological crutch, its a way to connect to his 'big, bad' former self. He says as much and wears the thing with relish- only HE didn't earn it. He didn't kill Nikki Woods just like he didn't rape Buffy- he's not responsible for one and he has no right to trumpet his victory (an achievement he's VERY proud of) to everybody.
Hence he hasn't the RIGHT to earn it because demon-Spike killed Nikki Woods.

2) Let's face it, the coat is the equivalent of a serial killer trophy, something to remember his victim by. It's not just something Spike stole, he's something he TOOK. If you're cool with that then I guess you see nothing wrong with serial killers hanging on to trophies of their victims, even doing so after they're 'reformed'.

 

[The Bronze]

1. Spike is different with a soul. One constant is his physical ability. He's still as capable of that level of fighting. Vampires run from slayers but as a fighter Spike was able to defeat two of them. If it helps him to remember what he's capable of while channelling it towards something useful I don't see the problem.

2. It's a battle trophy if anything. Mostly he just took it because he liked it, that's how vampires work. I personally think that the main problem with serial killers is the killing, not the stealing or fashion.

 

[Fuffy]

the coat is the equivalent of a serial killer trophy

It's probably the only coat he has as well, so continuing to wear it makes sense to me.
Also, I don't think that he took it in order to remember Nikki Wood, he took it because it was there and he liked it, just like the rest of his clothing.

Therefore, I don't consider the coat as a trophy.

 

[thetopher]

btw- I should've said 'attempted rape' because obviously Spike didn't rape Buffy, he just tried to- an important distinction.

1. Spike's fighting abilities are pretty darn crap until he puts on the coat- that's the whole point. And that's what Buffy wants- she wants the Spike who tried to kill her when he first met.
Comparing and contrasting his fighting styles pre and post soul isn't the point- it's responsibility. If he didn't do one then he didn't do the other. That simple.

2. I don't think vampires with souls work like that, at least I never saw Angel carry anything around from his bad old days. (Or Willow, or Faith, or Anya, or even Andrew- apart from that knife)
As for the rest, serial killers have multiple problems and I like to think I have a problem with all of what they do. The killing and the ghoulish keeping of mementos.
You know, like how Ed Gein kept parts of his victims as furniture. Maybe you thought that was cool/endearing? 😉

 

[Silverspike]

Bu this is a fantasy world, not reality and I don't think trying to overlay serial killers motives onto Vampires really works.

 

[thetopher]

It's probably the only coat he has as well, so continuing to wear it makes sense to me.
Also, I don't think that he took it in order to remember Nikki Wood, he took it because it was there and he liked it, just like the rest of his clothing.

Therefore, I don't consider the coat as a trophy.

I could buy that except so much is made of Spike going to collect the coat to 'connect' back to his big, bad self. It's part of how he sees himself as a fighter/killer.

Coupling that with his indifference to Nikki's fate ('I don't give a piss about your Mum') and his obvious pride at killing two slayers (as he tells Angel in 'Damage', and also see 'TGIQ') then really how else are we supposed to view the coat. It's a link back to those evil acts- which is exactly what a trophy is.

I don't think trying to overlay serial killers motives onto Vampires really works.

Uh, Angelus? 🙄

Also Spike didn't bite Nikki, he didn't drink and drain her blood, he stalked and killed her for the sheer thrill of it, not because he was hungry, That's a serial killer motive right there, not the motives of an animal.

 

[The Bronze]

1. Spike's fighting abilities are pretty darn crap until he puts on the coat- that's the whole point. And that's what Buffy wants- she wants the Spike who tried to kill her when he first met.
Comparing and contrasting his fighting styles pre and post soul isn't the point- it's responsibility. If he didn't do one then he didn't do the other. That simple.

What Buffy wants is to defeat The First and keep as many people alive as she can. What she asks Spike for is the best of his fighting ability to help her with that. What she doesn't want is for him to actually try to kill her.

I said Spike with a soul was still physically capable of being the same fighter who killed two slayers. His dip in form is not physical, it's due to his mental state. Surely understandable given the upheaval? When asked to up his game he puts the coat on as a reminder of what he is capable of in battle.

Responsibility is a bit of a slippery issue when talking about souled vampires. With a soul he wouldn't make the choice to try to rape Buffy or to kill Nikki. He's still capable of either though. He can still remember what it felt like for both. So he can channel that fighting ability and direct towards an appropriate target.

2. I don't think vampires with souls work like that, at least I never saw Angel carry anything around from his bad old days. (Or Willow, or Faith, or Anya, or even Andrew- apart from that knife)
As for the rest, serial killers have multiple problems and I like to think I have a problem with all of what they do. The killing and the ghoulish keeping of mementos.
You know, like how Ed Gein kept parts of his victims as furniture. Maybe you thought that was cool/endearing? 😉

In the same time period after receiving his soul Angel kept everything from his bad old days, including the eating of people!

Vampires take what they want / need / like. That's just how they operate. I imagine most of Spike's clothing he can't remember who he took it off. The coat isn't a reminder about a victim per se. It's a reminder about a fight he won against an opponent who was superior, on paper at least.

 

[thetopher]

I said Spike with a soul was still physically capable of being the same fighter who killed two slayers. His dip in form is not physical, it's due to his mental state. Surely understandable given the upheaval? When asked to up his game he puts the coat on as a reminder of what he is capable of in battle.

Still isn't the same guy and speculating who's better in a fight demon or souled Spike is pure speculation. I could argue that Spike in S2 through 4 was a way better fighter because he was a match for Buffy. S5 or 6 Spike got his ass kicked all the time by things that Xander ended up taking out.

In the same time period after receiving his soul Angel kept everything from his bad old days, including the eating of people!

Indeed he did and he acknowledges that and feels awful about it. Does it make it better? Nope, but acknowledging doing bad is something that he at least does. See 'that is the way the game is played' etc.

Vampires take what they want / need / like. That's just how they operate. I imagine most of Spike's clothing he can't remember who he took it off.

Again, I don't think vampires with souls work like that, they're subjected to human morality and therefore should be held to that standard. Spike with a soul won't steal a pair of boots, for example.
And again, he doesn't where ANY coat, he wears a coat with significance because of its former owner.

The coat isn't a reminder about a victim per se. It's a reminder about a fight he won against an opponent who was superior, on paper at least.

But the victim (a slayer) is the reason he remembers the fight. He remembers snapping her neck, he remembers the power and how much of a bad-ass he was for doing it. You gotta admit that's a very slim line between that and ghoulish trophy from a victim.


Anyway, YVMY as they say. 🙂 


@The Bronze

What, you're not hip? 😛

Apparently it's 'your view, my view'. Either that or some sort of Icelandic pop group.

'Give it up for 'Yvmy' and their new hit 'My love is like a blue dove'. 😕

 

[The Bronze]

What, you're not hip? 😛

Apparently it's 'your view, my view'. Either that or some sort of Icelandic pop group.

No I don't have any nieces or nephews to teach me about modern slang or introduce me to European pop sensations!

 

[white avenger]

What gives Robin Wood any more right to Nikki Wood's coat than ensouled Spike has? This Spike didn't kill Nikki Wood and take it as a trophy, and, just because it once belonged to his mother doesn't give Robin any special claim on it, either. It certainly doesn't give him the right to kill its present owner to get it.