Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[NikonTheVampire]

I have been hesitant to post on this thread for some time. I am conflicted.
Spike has two big character arcs. One in Buffy and the other one is in Angel.
Atonement is a big thing. Angel's first three seasons covered this for his character. For Spike in Buffy one season is not enough.
When he jumps to Angel, I think that his character as a vampire is used more as a cool prop than character richness. He is a cool vampire weather he is good or bad. His atonement in Angel is limited to very few scenes or story arcs. He moves on too quickly.

Don't get me wrong. I love Spike as the next fan... but I think that his character should have not been centered on his coolness factor alone

 

[jom]

What gives Robin Wood any more right to Nikki Wood's coat than ensouled Spike has? This Spike didn't kill Nikki Wood and take it as a trophy, and, just because it once belonged to his mother doesn't give Robin any special claim on it, either. It certainly doesn't give him the right to kill its present owner to get it.

Nikki Wood was his mother, dont you have a right to the stuff that belonged to your mother after she has died?. Spike is one of the 3 best characters in the buffyverse for me, but geeshhhh these excuses are just unbelievable unless you are being sarcastic of course.

 

[thetopher]

What gives Robin Wood any more right to Nikki Wood's coat than ensouled Spike has? This Spike didn't kill Nikki Wood and take it as a trophy, and, just because it once belonged to his mother doesn't give Robin any special claim on it, either. It certainly doesn't give him the right to kill its present owner to get it.

Uh, usually things are passed down from parents to children. Isn't that like, the law or something?

Of course there are people who murder other people and simply take their sh*t. That's something that also happens. So, take your pick- is it morality or might makes right? 
Maybe people should just simple say 'Hey, Spike was a wanker here but he gets way better later on.' That would be something, and its TRUE.

I mean, no character is perfect and these excuses for Spike are getting just...really weak.

 

[Fuffy]

Hey, Spike was a wanker here but he gets way better later on

Spike is most definitely a wanker a lot of the time, but I can't help but love him…especially because of his non-wanker moments 😛

 

[white avenger]

Uh, usually things are passed down from parents to children. Isn't that like, the law or something?

Of course there are people who murder other people and simply take their sh*t. .

Nope, no law says that anything is automatically "passed down" from parents to children, unless it is specifically spelled out in a legal last will and testament. If the person dies intestate, which Nikki almost certainly did, their worldly goods are distributed by a court appointed executor after all pending debts are settled. As a minor at the time, even if the coat were still there, his court appointed guardian would be the one who would get it, and they would be under no obligation whatsoever to save it until Wood reached legal age. It would most likely have been disposed of to help provide for his living expenses, so it is no guarantee that Wood would have ever gotten the coat in the first place.

And as you, yourself, pointed out, the Spike that Wood was trying to kill wasn't the same one who killed his mother. If there is any such thing as a right to property being handed down from one to another, then ensouled Spike had the coat handed down to him by soulless Spike, and if Soulless Spike was such a monster for tracking down and killing Nikki Wood for her coat, then Robin is almost as bad, because he tracked down and attempted to kill ensouled Spike for a coat that he "inherited" from soulless Spike.

And, come to think of it, we have no idea where Nikki got that coat in the first place. Maybe she stole it from some demon that she killed. Maybe there's a grieving demon somewhere in the world bewailing the fact that a nasty ol' Slayer killed his parent and took its coat.

 

[thetopher]

Nope, no law says that anything is automatically "passed down" from parents to children, unless it is specifically spelled out in a legal last will and testament. If the person dies intestate, which Nikki almost certainly did, their worldly goods are distributed by a court appointed executor after all pending debts are settled. As a minor at the time, even if the coat were still there, his court appointed guardian would be the one who would get it, and they would be under no obligation whatsoever to save it until Wood reached legal age. It would most likely have been disposed of to help provide for his living expenses, so it is no guarantee that Wood would have ever gotten the coat in the first place.

So most likely Nikki's watcher would've got it then. And then given it (along with all those other things like that emergency bag) to Wood when he reached age.

And as you, yourself, pointed out, the Spike that Wood was trying to kill wasn't the same one who killed his mother. If there is any such thing as a right to property being handed down from one to another, then ensouled Spike had the coat handed down to him by soulless Spike, and if Soulless Spike was such a monster for tracking down and killing Nikki Wood for her coat, then Robin is almost as bad, because he tracked down and attempted to kill ensouled Spike for a coat that he "inherited" from soulless Spike.

And here you contradict yourself. Is Spike right for inheriting it from his former self or is he right for taking it by right of 'conquest'?

You don't seem to think that people have a right to the things their parents have if they are, say MUGGED by somebody else (or killed for that matter) which seems like an odd sort of morality to be honest. I'm not sure the police (or indeed modern society) works that way.

Yeah, Wood may have been 'almost as bad' at that point- point is Spike was worse (which is something I never, ever hear a Spike-fan admit.)

And, come to think of it, we have no idea where Nikki got that coat in the first place. Maybe she stole it from some demon that she killed. Maybe there's a grieving demon somewhere in the world bewailing the fact that a nasty ol' Slayer killed his parent and took its coat.

Yeah, of course. Nikki's probably a rotten stinking thief. Spike probably did the world a favor by killing her. So now we can just make sh*t up to bolster our arguments.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So most likely Nikki's watcher would've got it then.

That's the part that no one ever talks about.. as best as I recall not on the show and not on this forum.

Where were her parent's? Why didn't Robin go to them to be raised instead of her watcher? Did her parents give him over to the watcher the same as her? Wouldn't his father have a say also? Where is the father? What's his story? We already know that she is a bad mother, does she come from a whole line of bad parents that they just allow their offspring to be taken away by frumpy white men?

 

[Silverspike]

"Uh, Angelus? 🙄

Also Spike didn't bite Nikki, he didn't drink and drain her blood, he stalked and killed her for the sheer thrill of it, not because he was hungry, That's a serial killer motive right there, not the motives of an animal."

But we're not talking about humans but souless vampires here, which are demons.

 

[bespangeled]

btw- I should've said 'attempted rape' because obviously Spike didn't rape Buffy, he just tried to- an important distinction.

1. Spike's fighting abilities are pretty darn crap until he puts on the coat- that's the whole point. And that's what Buffy wants- she wants the Spike who tried to kill her when he first met.
Comparing and contrasting his fighting styles pre and post soul isn't the point- it's responsibility. If he didn't do one then he didn't do the other. That simple.

2. I don't think vampires with souls work like that, at least I never saw Angel carry anything around from his bad old days. (Or Willow, or Faith, or Anya, or even Andrew- apart from that knife)
As for the rest, serial killers have multiple problems and I like to think I have a problem with all of what they do. The killing and the ghoulish keeping of mementos.
You know, like how Ed Gein kept parts of his victims as furniture. Maybe you thought that was cool/endearing? 😉

Seems to me that Angel let an entire motel full of people die that he could have saved - then took stolen money and bought the hotel on the cheap. Apparently some souled vampires prefer bigger trophies. Or maybe just a defense shelter full of lawyers would do.

The coat is the coat - a soul does not mean taste, tact, or even good manners. You wanna hold Spike up to the Angel(us) mirror then make sure both are reflecting the realities. 

"Uh, Angelus? 🙄

Also Spike didn't bite Nikki, he didn't drink and drain her blood, he stalked and killed her for the sheer thrill of it, not because he was hungry, That's a serial killer motive right there, not the motives of an animal."

But we're not talking about humans but souless vampires here, which are demons.

Yeah, I sorta flashed on Jenny Calendar there. Angelus brutally murdered her, then arranged that entire lovely scenario so that Giles could come home to roses, champagne, opera, and the women he loved dead in his bed. Did he ever atone for that specifically?

I get two issues - atonement - and the coat
Getting a soul - choosing to do it, fight for it, getting it and returning to face the music. Not enough.
Dying to save the world and make sure the woman he loved survived
These were all selfish moves because he only did it for Buffy....and he was wearing the Coat.
Fighting by Angel's side
Choosing to die in an ally with the last of the Fang Gang
Selfish again - cuz, he still wore the coat and therefore had not atoned.

There is nothing even approaching reason here - do you really believe that handing over the coat would have mattered at all? He couldn't change the past, and he just isn't the type of guy to sit back and let a few people murder him without taking offense. If he had said "Gee, sorry I offed your mother" would Wood really have dropped the murder attempt and bonded? Angel allowed a room full of lawyers to end up on the buffet because he was tired of being screwed with. Spike let Wood live, but he kept the coat. Fair enough.

 

[thetopher]

Seems to me that Angel let an entire motel full of people die that he could have saved - then took stolen money and bought the hotel on the cheap. Apparently some souled vampires prefer bigger trophies. Or maybe just a defense shelter full of lawyers would do.

Sorry all I heard was the same old 'blah, blah, Angel did this so Spike gets to do what he wants' nonsense. That's not an argument.

Angel never exactly boasts about letting people die in the Fifties (He get Wesley and Cordy to investigate the case without telling them because he's ashamed of his former actions) or about what he did to the W&H lawyers (which, btw, was already going to happen- the PtB foresaw it and tried to steer Angel away from it)

He didn't cause either event but he still regrets his own actions, and does take responsibility for his part in what happened.

Yes Angelus did plenty of these things and much, much worse besides, but on the other hand I don't see Angel carrying his favorite wimple around in his back pocket 'ah, this takes me back'.

If he did you'd better believe that I would have serious problems with the way he views himself and his past actions.


Point is Angel doesn't keep trophies and does do atonement. Spike is the opposite, he abdicates responsibility for the bad, takes credit for the good and basically does what suits him regarding all his past actions.

In some ways that's a very human thing to do, everybody does it to some degree or other, but then everybody doesn't have a hundred years of murder and mayhem in their heads either- which colors things slightly.

Does Spike have to do atonement? As I have said before there are other characters who view their bad behavior as a 'blip' not to be repeated, not something that defines them.
Anya is that way, as is Willow- they are not about atonement/redemption all the time, it was a period of adjustment they went through. 'That is bad and I won't do it again' (obviously I'm referring to 'human' Anya becoming a vengeance demon again and then reverting back- not the thousand years of slaughter)

That's a fact of both those characters, what people can think of that is up to them but whatever. Spike is the same way- his atonement was done by the end of S5 of Angel as far as he was concerned.

The coat is the coat - a soul does not mean taste, tact, or even good manners. You wanna hold Spike up to the Angel(us) mirror then make sure both are reflecting the realities.

Then why don't you go and call out all the people defending Spike's 'lack of tact' then? There are people who are actively defending him by saying 'well maybe Nikki stole the coat' and you're seriously quoting me when you actually agree with what I'm saying.

Maybe its time for people to consider 'if it was somebody else and not Spike doing these things, would I defend him so vigorously?'

Would I basically say that that the people who Spike has crossed/wronged should get over it already but that all the people that cross Spike should get what's coming to them and more (like, say Giles?).

Getting a soul - choosing to do it, fight for it, getting it and returning to face the music. Not enough.

Unsouled Spike got a soul so souled Spike doesn't get the credit.

Also motivations matter, Spike came back to Sunnydale for many possible reasons- making amends is one of them. Wanting to be with the woman he was still in love with is another completely valid interpretation.

So no, just coming back to Sunnydale after getting his soul isn't enough (Willow did the same and that isn't enough for me either. I don't go 'oh, Willow showed up, all's forgiven.Let's get her back to who she was already and forget about all that pain and murder').

Dying to save the world and make sure the woman he loved survived
These were all selfish moves because he only did it for Buffy....and he was wearing the Coat.

Yeah, never actually said this but whatever. Same old, same old. 🙄

I did say that Spike is a hero for what he did on the Hellmouth. I have also said that Spike is a huge asshole in S7. Characters can be both, heroes don't have to be likable (just like villains don't have to always invoke hate. Many villains are fun to watch) and I don't think Spike is.
He's a jackass. Does he improve? Actually he does on Angel and gets a lot better.

Back to what I did say (in case you were interested) I did say that Spike didn't have a right to wear that coat because his former self 'won it' or however you want to describe stalking and murdering somebody for fun.

I just don't think people have the right to keep what they stole off other people's corpses. I'm wacky that way.

Fighting by Angel's side
Choosing to die in an ally with the last of the Fang Gang
Selfish again - cuz, he still wore the coat and therefore had not atoned.

Again, I never said this but, y'know, this is obviously a rant and not a serious discussion addressing any salient points. What's new.

I have said many times that in S5 of Angel Spike's motivation is atonement- I've said this/indicated this several times. I'm not gonna say it any more.

There is nothing even approaching reason here - do you really believe that handing over the coat would have mattered at all?

You are lecturing me on reason?
That's just...kinda funny. We have Spike fans falling over themselves to give their favorite character every break imaginable, any excuse instead of saying that maybe this wasn't this guy's finest hour? That maybe he, like most other characters, has flaws and screws up?
And you're coming after me literally making sh*t up that I never said.

Because I'm 'obsessed with a coat' that doesn't really matter anyway, right? Apart from it does go towards common decency (and perhaps sincerity about atoning for his former crimes outside of what he did to Buffy?) and morality towards past victims.

Ultimately Spike does not care about any of his past actions towards others apart from Buffy, it goes to the core of his character- he feels bad for her but no one else matters in the scheme of things.

But we're not talking about humans but souless vampires here, which are demons.

Vampires are hybrids. Demons with human memories/bodies. They are tainted with the stink of humanity. So we can put human motivation on them. Angelus was one of the cruelest vampires because he killed for the sheer pleasure of it, the artistry- not for food (he did that too).
The same with Spike and Nikki, he stalked her, taunted her and then killed her- not because he's a vampire but because of who he is. As soon as he hears about the slayer he wants to go and kill one.

That's a very close serial killer motivation.


I'm gonna leave it there because rational debating of points has clearly gone by the wayside. But then nothing changes. I should've known better.

 

[bespangeled]

Sorry all I heard was the same old 'blah, blah, Angel did this so Spike gets to do what he wants' nonsense. That's not an argument.

You specified souled vampire - not me. And when you decide to measure Spike on the Angel ruler, I do get to look over the markings. So climb down and put away your hanky. 😀

Angel never exactly boasts about letting people die in the Fifties (He get Wesley and Cordy to investigate the case without telling them because he's ashamed of his former actions) or about what he did to the W&H lawyers (which, btw, was already going to happen- the PtB foresaw it and tried to steer Angel away from it)

He didn't cause either event but he still regrets his own actions, and does take responsibility for his part in what happened.

Yes Angelus did plenty of these things and much, much worse besides, but on the other hand I don't see Angel carrying his favorite wimple around in his back pocket 'ah, this takes me back'.

If he did you'd better believe that I would have serious problems with the way he views himself and his past actions.

You remind me of Pangs. Souled Angel allowed a massacre to occur that he could have easily prevented. He did it because he was pissed off, and he knowingly left the occupants of the hotel to die horrible deaths. The hotel became useless, and Angel took stolen money that was a trigger to this event and used it to buy the hotel, after which he lived in the damn hotel! "But hey, he felt really bad about it."

And no - if you can...accept.. a mass murder allowed by a souled vampire on the basis of 'he did feel bad' then I suspect you could find some way to say the wimple is to make sure he never nuns again

Point is Angel doesn't keep trophies and does do atonement. Spike is the opposite, he abdicates responsibility for the bad, takes credit for the good and basically does what suits him regarding all his past actions.

Spike's demon felt so much remorse that he went around the world and fought to get his soul. You get critical about whether or not it's shiny enough a few weeks later without even allowing that getting the damn thing is an atonement unparalleled. That was definitely not abdicating responsibility. That was the first step in a personal redemption that ended with him choosing to die to save the world. But he wore the coat and he didn't feel bad about it.

Unsouled Spike got a soul so souled Spike doesn't get the credit.

Wow - that bit of sophistry just ate it's own tail. The choice to get the soul minimized the trauma for him - that's my point. The demon and the soul were of one mind in at least one thing.

Also motivations matter, Spike came back to Sunnydale for many possible reasons- making amends is one of them. Wanting to be with the woman he was still in love with is another completely valid interpretation.

So no, just coming back to Sunnydale after getting his soul isn't enough (Willow did the same and that isn't enough for me either. I don't go 'oh, Willow showed up, all's forgiven.Let's get her back to who she was already and forget about all that pain and murder').

So - motivation was to atone and help the woman he loves - a choice he makes rather than brood and eat rats for 100 years. (Yes - it is Angel who led the way on all of that). I really think it was the choice by the demon to get the soul is why Spike did not fracture like Angel(us) did.

Then why don't you go and call out all the people defending Spike's 'lack of tact' then? There are people who are actively defending him by saying 'well maybe Nikki stole the coat' and you're seriously quoting me when you actually agree with what I'm saying.

Maybe its time for people to consider 'if it was somebody else and not Spike doing these things, would I defend him so vigorously?'

Would I basically say that that the people who Spike has crossed/wronged should get over it already but that all the people that cross Spike should get what's coming to them and more (like, say Giles?).

I like his lack of tact - it's part of his cluelessness. I don't have to approve of every action that the character takes, and every decision he makes. I can accept the hotel with equanimity. No problem with that. I feel the same way about the coat. I'm interested in the motivations but I don't judge the results. (Sometimes - very rarely there is a character and arc that really hits me, and a character I almost bind with. Believe it or not, for me that is Wesley. But no one ever really wants to talk about him.) But to me, Spike keeping the coat is his determination to do the souled route his own way - just like leaving W&H was his way of doing the journey. I can see where some would object but it seems now to outweigh every other action he took in season 7, and every word he spoke. That is a bit strange to me.

As for the - if it were someone else, well then it would be someone else. I like the character as is. I might dislike actions, choices, motivations but those are an intrinsic part of life - and they lead extraordinary lives. I have raged about choices made by everyone, but the only characters I dislike are Riley and Kennedy.

You can say that - but it's just a bias at this point. You've wound it so high that there is no substance there. Just anger.

Back to what I did say (in case you were interested) I did say that Spike didn't have a right to wear that coat because his former self 'won it' or however you want to describe stalking and murdering somebody for fun.

I just don't think people have the right to keep what they stole off other people's corpses. I'm wacky that way.

I'm willing to let Angel have his hotel, and Spike his coat. To be honest, given what both Spike and Angel are able to procure, I always assumed the clan was smart enough to have some accounts. Order of Taraka takes some cash, and so does a mansion. So really everything they have is soaked in blood.

Angel made a grave mistake in that hotel even though he had a half century before that with his soul - and then he had 50+ years to deal with that. He put the hotel to use for good. I can't expect that degree of maturity from Spike when he is newly souled. Even though the process is so much easier on him, it is still hellish with the First involved as well.

When Wood decided to do the work of the First, knowing he was working for the enemy - he kinda lost my sympathy. The First tested everyone and there was only one real traitor in the bunch (well, Giles too). So you and I differ - not only in how we see it but in what we want from it.

Again, I never said this but, y'know, this is obviously a rant and not a serious discussion addressing any salient points. What's new.

I have said many times that in S5 of Angel Spike's motivation is atonement- I've said this/indicated this several times. I'm not gonna say it any more.

Gotcha - I know. If there were a hug icon I would subject you to an embarrassing cyberhug right about here.😀

You

are lecturing me on reason?
That's just...kinda funny. We have Spike fans falling over themselves to give their favorite character every break imaginable, any excuse instead of saying that maybe this wasn't this guy's finest hour? That maybe he, like most other characters, has flaws and screws up?
And you're coming after me literally making sh*t up that I never said.

Because I'm 'obsessed with a coat' that doesn't really matter anyway, right? Apart from it does go towards common decency (and perhaps sincerity about atoning for his former crimes outside of what he did to Buffy?) and morality towards past victims.

Ultimately Spike does not care about any of his past actions towards others apart from Buffy, it goes to the core of his character- he feels bad for her but no one else matters in the scheme of things.

That question is hilariously arrogant. Then you decide to create a group to rail against - the evil Spike Fans, so predictable, unreasonable, willing to lie in the muck as they lay in it. You come up with all sorts of scenarios to object to, and drop it at my feet as if I have some relationship to your fantasy opponent. I don't. Once you decide that you can place all sorts of disparate people in one group and assign them all the same opinions and motivations...well, no longer rational IMO. Talk to me. I don't talk about Spike-haters, and I also object to that term as you know. I don't even have a problem if someone hates him. But I will argue cuz that's kinda why I like this board.

And, yes - it takes until mid season 5 of Angel before he begins to get it. Accepting a soul is a process and not an event. You prefer not to look at Angel's process, which took over a century. I love his journey. So I'm not attacking Angel for his decisions during this time but I am not forgetting them or rationalizing because he was nicer and felt bad.

Vampires are hybrids. Demons with human memories/bodies. They are tainted with the stink of humanity. So we can put human motivation on them. Angelus was one of the cruelest vampires because he killed for the sheer pleasure of it, the artistry- not for food (he did that too).
The same with Spike and Nikki, he stalked her, taunted her and then killed her- not because he's a vampire but because of who he is. As soon as he hears about the slayer he wants to go and kill one.

That's a very close serial killer motivation.


I'm gonna leave it there because rational debating of points has clearly gone by the wayside. But then nothing changes. I should've known better.

All vampires are serial killers. Sort of their raison d'etre.

And I have to agree that reason seems to have left the debate here, but I don't see it as me. Sorry to be a disappointment....nah, not really.😀

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But he wore the coat and he didn't feel bad about it.

But that's the thing. He didn't wear the coat. From Seeing Red and the attempted rape until more than half way through the following season. He never wore the coat while he was coming to grip with his past. You could argue that he did feel bad about wearing the coat, and all it represented, that being why he stopped wearing it.

Then when he realized it was a valuable totem he wore it again.

 

[Silverspike]

"That's a very close serial killer motivation."

Imo close, but no cigar. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

But that's the thing. He didn't wear the coat. From Seeing Red and the attempted rape until more than half way through the following season. He never wore the coat while he was coming to grip with his past. You could argue that he did feel bad about wearing the coat, and all it represented, that being why he stopped wearing it.

Then when he realized it was a valuable totem he wore it again.

Yup! Buffy wanted the vampire who nearly killed her, and that vampire wore the coat.😀 

"That's a very close serial killer motivation."

Imo close, but no cigar. 🙂

I'd say that Angel was a psychopath, and Spike was a sociopath. After that, there's insanity, family or gain I'd say.

 

[gite63]

I LOVE that people have to cling to The Coat to make a point, to prove how an evil jerk (souled) Spike is!

I LOVE that people think that Spike should be crying, and feeling guilty, and brooding, and making speeches about atonement (while others do that while adding more bodies to their macabre list) - and if he isn't, that makes him an horrible vampire with a soul!

Spike really is a Good Guy, a Champion, a Hero! 🙂

 

[NikonTheVampire]

I think no one doubts that Spike is a good guy and a hero.

The purpose of Spike getting a soul is for the desire to suffer the pain he causes the woman he loves. That is the catalyst. When he obtains his soul we dig deeper and realize that he is a vampire and he has murdered people. We reach the same concept with two different points of entry. One vampire is cursed with a soul. One vampires regain his soul as a reward.

But the concept is the same. Vampire with a soul. Vampire with a conscious. Vampire that has done evil. Spike must go through the same process of atonement. Not because of the the character but because of the concept. No one doubts that Spike is a hero. He is a hero... in season 7. In Season 4 he is on a leash. No hero there. In season 5 he realizes that he is in love. As he progresses we see him adopt this sense of virtue because he loves. He wants to win her love.

In Season 6 we fall back to selfish passion. He is with Buffy for his sake... not for hers. She is broken and he knows this. She is broken and he goes along for the ride. When she cuts him off... we see the selfishness of the true Spike. He wants what he wants and acts on his selfish passion. The consequence of his actions lead to season 7.

He wants to suffer. He wants to hurt. FOR HER. Not for humanity. Nor the greater good. FOR HER!!!

The concept of en souled vampire, in my honest opinion is to Atone... The series did not give enough chance to play the record Angel had been playing for three seasons already.

 

[white avenger]

Could it possibly be that, in our haste to blame Spike for not making as large an issue of his atonement as any other ensouled vampire in the Buffyverse, the reason that Spike got his soul in the first place was because of his treatment of Buffy, culminating in the attempted rape? He did that (got his soul) for Buffy, and she recognized and accepted what he had done.("You risked everything to become a better man, and you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do.") Spike's atonement was for what he had done to Buffy. She recognized, that, acknowledged it, and accepted it. That was all that Spike wanted. As for any of his other past transgressions, they weren't part of the issue, and, again, it was Buffy who acknowledged that the Spike who killed Nikki Wood (and everybody else) no longer existed. That's all that Spike cared about at that time.

Buffy's acknowledgement of what he had done and her sincere belief in the fact that he was a better (not perfect) man was all that he ever wanted. What Spike did, who he was, were defined by exactly what Buffy wanted him to be. From the beginning of Season 7 up until the moment that Buffy specifically told him that she actually needed the "old Spike, the one who almost killed me when we first met," there was no swaggering, bragging big bad in Spike's personality, except for a single moment when he was trying to hide the fact that he had regained his soul. Spike became the "old Spike' once more, bragging, swaggering, and wearing his trophy coat because that's what Buffy needed and wanted.

Argue about whether or not he should have worn that coat, given it back to the son of the woman he took it from, or burn it to ashes, it makes no difference whatsoever. Spike had already achieved the only atonement that he cared for at that time. As far as he was concerned, all of his past sins were forgiven by the only person he really gave a damn about. It wasn't until "Damaged" that he realized that he had more to answer for than what he had done to Buffy.

 

[NightLady]

All this fuss about the "coat" 🙄

Anyway this is my (short) take on the topic:

Souless Spike needed A LOT more atonement. He did many good things and was changing and I LOVE that he was able to do both and to want his soul back, like no other demon in the Buffyverse has done before and after, but it was not enough to make amends for all the evil things he had done.

Souled Spike had nothing to atone for.

 

[bespangeled]

I think no one doubts that Spike is a good guy and a hero.

The purpose of Spike getting a soul is for the desire to suffer the pain he causes the woman he loves. That is the catalyst. When he obtains his soul we dig deeper and realize that he is a vampire and he has murdered people. We reach the same concept with two different points of entry. One vampire is cursed with a soul. One vampires regain his soul as a reward.

But the concept is the same. Vampire with a soul. Vampire with a conscious. Vampire that has done evil. Spike must go through the same process of atonement. Not because of the the character but because of the concept. No one doubts that Spike is a hero. He is a hero... in season 7. In Season 4 he is on a leash. No hero there. In season 5 he realizes that he is in love. As he progresses we see him adopt this sense of virtue because he loves. He wants to win her love.

In Season 6 we fall back to selfish passion. He is with Buffy for his sake... not for hers. She is broken and he knows this. She is broken and he goes along for the ride. When she cuts him off... we see the selfishness of the true Spike. He wants what he wants and acts on his selfish passion. The consequence of his actions lead to season 7.

He wants to suffer. He wants to hurt. FOR HER. Not for humanity. Nor the greater good. FOR HER!!!

The concept of en souled vampire, in my honest opinion is to Atone... The series did not give enough chance to play the record Angel had been playing for three seasons already.

I am pretty close to agreeing with you here. For me there is something in the middle - I really think Spike loved Buffy and thought he was good for her. The trouble was simply that Buffy is not Dru - and Dru is all that Spike knows of romantic and sexual love. So he treats Buffy as if she is a vampire - feed, fight, and f*ck (consider whiskey as food) - overwhelm her with sensation. At first it gives her what she wants - something to feel - but it is also killing her..

Yes - he finally brutally attacked her, and he not only betrayed her but that was his first introduction to the reality that he was hurting Buffy even though he promised and believed he never would. That was the precise point of conflict between being a man (not hurting) and being a monster (not caring). This is where I really see that Spike had to feel the pain that he caused.

 

[sosa lola]

Personally, I find Spike helping Buffy defeat the First is the best way to make up for his past mistakes as a soulless vampire. Instead of moping for centuries or going around the world to apologize for hurting and killing people's relatives and friends, he's actually doing something useful with his soul and vampire strength. Actions speak louder than words and Spike proved that he can be trusted and relied on.