Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[jom]

I think Spike should had atoned better for his past deeds. The attempted rape should had destroyed him and once he got his soul back, he should had taken a hard look at his passed evil deeds. His confrontation with the crazy slayer was the only time i saw him truly reflect on how much damaged he caused to people in the past.

 

[EVIL UU]

No. Atonement is for wankers.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yea i wanted more from Spike. I don't need Angel guilt and redemption, but a little more would have been nice. He has a few good moments but i wanted more.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Hell yes! It really annoyed me how he shamelessly wore the coat of a slayer the soulless version of him killed.

 

[Silverspike]

I think Spike should had atoned better for his past deeds. The attempted rape should had destroyed him and once he got his soul back, he should had taken a hard look at his passed evil deeds. His confrontation with the crazy slayer was the only time i saw him truly reflect on how much damaged he caused to people in the past.

Well as they say "actions speak louder then words" and he did continue to fight evil with Angel and company. Compared to Angel it's still very early days.

And to be fair the coat he now wears is a copy and not the real deal so to speak.

 

[Blaze]

I'm a big fan of Spike's "redemption". You know why? Cause he realizes that what he did without a soul is not something he could ever do with a soul, and that's good enough. No need for some self pitying brooding, Spike gets down to business by simply being a good man. If anything, that is both a more productive thing to do, and it is more healthy for him.

Spike atoned himself by being a good man, by helping the world, by saving people. But people get mad because he does it while being happy? While not looking sad and hating himself? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[white avenger]

If we go with what is canon in the Buffyverse, Spike with a soul is an entirely different person than the soulless monster who kill for over a century, including two Slayers, tried to rape a third, and bragged about being the "Big Bad." By that interpretation, ensouled Spike has nothing whatsoever to atone for.

If we ignore that canon, then Spike should certainly regret "his" past, but also learn from it, vow never to become that monster again, and devote the rest of his existence to making the world at least a little better by fighting evil and aligning himself with the forces of good. (pretty much what Faith did when she decided not to return to prison after Season 7) Nothing short of time travel could ever erase the crimes that the monster committed, or bring back the lives that he took. The past is past. Brooding, weeping, and gnashing of teeth don't accomplish anything useful.

Spike can't change the past. It's over and done with. He CAN, however, try to become what Buffy saw in him: a better man, and by so doing, help to make the future a little better. That's just about as close to actual atonement as he can get.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

How do you make any kind of atonement to people you have killed? I believe the only person who can grant absolution from sin is the person you sinned against - I don't believe in the concept of a third-party priesthood that can do that for you. Spike had no soul when he killed and attacked people except in Season 7 when he was under the control of the First and not responsible for his actions. I do not believe the brooding that Angel did was useful or necessary in any sense. I could understand both Spike and Angel having post-traumatic stress disorder from the things they have seen now that they have souls but more atonement would simply be more narcissistic and would not benefit their victims, which is what atonement should be about.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yes, he had no soul when he killed people, so in theory he should have nothing to be concerned about. But what we see with Angel is that even though he has a soul, Angelus is still in there, deep down; and when Angel gets his soul back he gains all the memories of what Angelus does. So I can see that if neither of them remember anything, then they wouldn't be affected by what the souless monster does. We do see Spike tell Buffy that he remembers all the bad things and feels bad about it, I just think it was too quick for him to be like, "oh that sucks, now I'm over it and Ill be a good guy now" I guess it's mostly because it was a sort of rushed story arc, whereas we see Angel's journey for like 7 seasons.

Also Angel is very different in personality from Angelus, but Spike is not that different from souless Spike, so it does seem he should have changed a bit more to draw the distinction that they are two different personas. Spike's redemption on Angel is much better than s7, I think because it's happening away from Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

Also Angel is very different in personality from Angelus, but Spike is not that different from soulless Spike, so it does seem he should have changed a bit more to draw the distinction that they are two different personas. Spike's redemption on Angel is much better than s7, I think because it's happening away from Buffy.

Angel and Spike are two distinctly different personalities, and how Angel reacts to having his soul returned is going to be different to how Spike reacts to the same thing. That doesn't make one somehow better than the other, it just makes both characters unique. With that in mind, why is Spike's way of dealing with his soul and coming to grips with the monster that he used to be in any way better or worse than Angel's? Both characters try to become better men in their own way.

 

[The Bronze]

I think Spike should had atoned better for his past deeds.

How exactly would one go about "better atonement" than sacrificing yourself to save the entire planet? Who exactly would benefit from Spike moping about and dwelling on things he had no control over? William was a victim of Drusilla. Without a soul Spike was a monster causing carnage for a century or so. When his soul is returned he does his best to protect people and generally save the world. There's a clear distinction and absolutely no sense in Spike blaming himself for something he couldn't control.

Think of it this way. When Faith steals Buffy's body and is a bitch to Tara would you expect Buffy to then apologise and atone for it despite not being involved at all?

A quick tag on question for the people who voted for more atonement from Spike. Do you think You're Welcome showed enough atonement from Cordelia?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But what we see with Angel is that even though he has a soul, Angelus is still in there, deep down;

That is because of the gypsy curse. Judging how the soul acted and reacted with both Spike and Darla, the gypsy curse fractured Liam's psyche in two, thereby allowing the soul version and the non-soul version to live alongside one another.

 

[Firstina]

I'm a big fan of Spike's "redemption". You know why? Cause he realizes that what he did without a soul is not something he could ever do with a soul, and that's good enough. No need for some self pitying brooding, Spike gets down to business by simply being a good man. If anything, that is both a more productive thing to do, and it is more healthy for him.
Spike atoned himself by being a good man, by helping the world, by saving people. But people get mad because he does it while being happy? While not looking sad and hating himself? That doesn't make sense to me.

Soul isn't a guarantee that a person isn't capable of the bad things anymore. My guess, demon in a vampire just gives a person a resource to do that deeds. Just like William wanted to kill his opponents with no taste for awful poetry, Spike probably killed them just the way the human in him wanted just before the turning into vampire.
Although I agree with the statement about the efficiency of not wasting your time being guilty, Spike still has and always will have dark and unpleasant past - and don't forget that he is still a vampire with a soul meaning he has a demon inside of him, otherwise he would become human after gaining his soul back. Probably the dead one, guessing that demon maintains the dead body in immortal form.
"Simply being a good man" isn't enough to atone. Actually nothing is enough. Yep, you can do absolutely nothing to redeem that kind of past. That's the whole problem. Both vampires are doomed.😉

That is because of the gypsy curse. Judging how the soul acted and reacted with both Spike and Darla, the gypsy curse fractured Liam's psyche in two, thereby allowing the soul version and the non-soul version to live alongside one another.

That's not exactly correct statement. Soul or no soul every vampire still has a demon part in them. Even if Spike's doesn't manifest itself for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Even if Spike's doesn't manifest itself

Or Darla. So two vampires got their soul back through 'natural' processes and act one way, and one gets it back as a punishment and acts another. It's simple deductive reasoning then, based on the only examples we are shown, to say that Angel/Angelus is the anomaly.

 

[Fuffy]

Soul isn't a guarantee that a person isn't capable of the bad things anymore.

All humans have a soul and we all do bad things from time to time, some just do more bad things than others.

I think that if Spike's redemption would have included constant brooding, I'd probably not like him as much anymore because then he would have turned into Angel 2.0 😛 (I love Angel thought 😀)

 

[white avenger]

That is because of the gypsy curse. Judging how the soul acted and reacted with both Spike and Darla, the gypsy curse fractured Liam's psyche in two, thereby allowing the soul version and the non-soul version to live alongside one another.

That's an interesting theory, and one that I don't believe has ever been mentioned before. Since Angel isn't Angelus, the only way that the Gypsies could punish Angelus would be to keep him trapped within the body of ensouled Angel. That would also help explain why Angel is so much more focused on trying to somehow achieve the impossible task of atoning for Angelus' crimes. Angel, and his extreme sense of guilt are both the prison and the torture that Angelus has to endure. Take that guilt away, even for an instant of perfect happiness, and Angelus escapes, reclaiming his body.

 

[Firstina]

Or Darla. So two vampires got their soul back through 'natural' processes and act one way, and one gets it back as a punishment and acts another. It's simple deductive reasoning then, based on the only examples we are shown, to say that Angel/Angelus is the anomaly.

To be correct, Darla didn't have both soul and demon except the effects of her unborn child. Spike did. So did Angel.
And again neither of these 3 soul cases were "natural". More like they were very rare and unique. 

That's an interesting theory, and one that I don't believe has ever been mentioned before. Since Angel isn't Angelus, the only way that the Gypsies could punish Angelus would be to keep him trapped within the body of ensouled Angel. That would also help explain why Angel is so much more focused on trying to somehow achieve the impossible task of atoning for Angelus' crimes. Angel, and his extreme sense of guilt are both the prison and the torture that Angelus has to endure. Take that guilt away, even for an instant of perfect happiness, and Angelus escapes, reclaiming his body.

I always thought that the demon part of the vampire a.k.a Spikeus or Angelus maintain the human body in living state. So no matter for the gypsy curse there is no way to remove a demon or they will die because they are already....dead.
But your version is interesting.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

To be correct, Darla didn't have both soul and demon except the effects of her unborn child.

So again, she DID have a soul as a vampire as I stated. And she didnt feel the immediate need to repent for her actions. Thus, Angel/lus is the anomaly. You 'corrected' me by agreeing with me.

 

[Blaze]

Soul isn't a guarantee that a person isn't capable of the bad things anymore. My guess, demon in a vampire just gives a person a resource to do that deeds. Just like William wanted to kill his opponents with no taste for awful poetry, Spike probably killed them just the way the human in him wanted just before the turning into vampire.

I never said it was. I just said that in the case of Spikes, the actions he took soulless are not actions he could ever take with a soul. There's a big difference between feeling like you want to hurt someone and actually doing it. Rage and anger are normal human emotion.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

There's a big difference between feeling like you want to hurt someone and actually doing it.

And there is a difference between hurting someone and feeling regret over it, versus feeling nothing. The feeling nothing is what makes a vampire a monster.