Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[Skanky Vamp]

And not only soulled Spike is guilty of moral hypocrisy. So are Xander and Buffy.
It's a fairly odious character flaw.

Moral hypocrisy is human nature though.

 

[Blaze]

But he doesn't say 'I'm sorry that happened to you' he says 'I can' say I'm sorry' because HE feels responsible, not because it was something bad that happened to the woman he loves.

True, he does feel responsible.

But he doesn't just NOT apologize to Wood (that I could understand I suppose), he goes out of his way to say 'I don't care' and pisses on the man's memory of his Mom/the relationship he had with his Mom.

Ya, because the guy is literally trying to beat the shit out of Spike. I wouldn't have much respect for a guy trying to kill me either.

Plus he continues to feel pride (he wears the coat, he tells Angel and co that he's killed a couple of slayers in his time) in his actions. He also takes great 'pride' in telling Angel about all the times he 'put it to' Buffy when they square off- a stark contrast to how he treats Buffy in the previous year.

I'll give you that, Spike isn't always very mature. He likes bragging like a little boy, and showing he's the "man"

 

[thetopher]

Exactly. And further you can feel bad and responsible for heinous actions, but not feel guilt over it.

And yet Spike feels true guilt for what he did to Buffy- he's torn up over it. He feels that HE is responsible. And he also feels 'responsible' for killing Nikki Woods and yet feels nothing (some pride perhaps).

He was doing his 'job' as Nikki was. There should be not guilt from that.

And he tried to rape Buffy out of his 'love' for her. Rather than a cold, sadistic want to stalk and kill a powerful young woman for no real reason.

Moral hypocrisy is human nature though.

And?
You can dislike somebody for exhibiting human attributes that you find less than admirable. Jealousy. Revenge. Betrayal. Anything really.
Hypocrisy is one of the worst though because its not an honest reaction to things.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And yet Spike feels true guilt for what he did to Buffy- he's torn up over it. He feels that HE is responsible. And he also feels 'responsible' for killing Nikki Woods and yet feels nothing (some pride perhaps).

Again.. you say he should. But you never say WHY he should. He killed someone that was going to kill him. I have given examples of why I think he should not, but you bring up Buffy as an excuse as why he should feel guilt over killing Nikki. Buffy has nothing to do with it.

And he tried to rape Buffy out of his 'love' for her.

And he felt guilt over that. And expressed that guilt. Because he knew and had a relationship (if thats what you want to call it) with Buffy. He wasnt having sex with Nikki, nor had her trust, as far as I know.

And?
You can dislike somebody for exhibiting human attributes that you find less than admirable. Jealousy. Revenge. Betrayal. Anything really.
Hypocrisy is one of the worst though because its not an honest reaction to things.

Exactly. You can. And you can say you dislike Spike for a number of reasons. But to say he is a hypocrite because he should have felt guilt over killing Nikki is a going beyond just disliking a character. You are judging them. And again, I still don't know WHY he should give a toss or feel guilt.

And as a side note, if you honestly think hypocrisy is one of the worst human attributes I would love to live in your world. Honestly.

 

[thetopher]

Again.. you say he should. But you never say WHY he should.

Because every other main character on the show feels/shows remorse for the evils they have committed. By the morality of the show Spike is certainly lacking. That's not my morality- its the shows.

And he felt guilt over that. And expressed that guilt. Because he knew and had a relationship (if thats what you want to call it) with Buffy. He wasnt having sex with Nikki, nor had her trust, as far as I know.

How is brutally murdering somebody in cold blood not worse than trying to rape somebody? It doesn't (or at least shouldn't) matter if you like somebody or not to feel bad about what you did to them- not if you are a moral person.

And again, its not the lack of apology, its the lack of anything approaching remorse.

Exactly. You can. And you can say you dislike Spike for a number of reasons.

I can and I have. Soulled Spike that is. Because he actions are inconsistent.

But to say he is a hypocrite because he should have felt quilt over killing Nikki is a going beyond just disliking a character.

No it isn't. Two evil actions against two slayers. One gets an apology and the other gets the opposite. I don't get how you cannot see the discrepancy there.

You are judging them.

Gasp! No! How dare I judge a character by their actions. Isn't that all most people on these boards (or indeed in the world) do every day.

Not judging somebody for their actions doesn't make your argument somehow better or more reasoned, its just a POV.

And as a side note, if you honestly think hypocrisy is one of the worst human attributes I would love to live in your world. Honestly.

Well, hypocrisy certainly is one of the most common negative human traits, far more common than a lot of the ones I mentioned. As is rudeness.

Oh, sidenote: you do live in my world (or at least we inhabit the same world), its how we are able to communicate at this very moment.

 

[gite63]

I'm a big fan of Spike's "redemption". You know why? Cause he realizes that what he did without a soul is not something he could ever do with a soul, and that's good enough. No need for some self pitying brooding, Spike gets down to business by simply being a good man. If anything, that is both a more productive thing to do, and it is more healthy for him.

Spike atoned himself by being a good man, by helping the world, by saving people. But people get mad because he does it while being happy? While not looking sad and hating himself? That doesn't make sense to me.

The only broody character is Angel, and it didn't prevent him from causing death, mayhem and destruction, as seen in Season 8.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Because every other main character on the show feels/shows remorse for the evils they have committed. By the morality of the show Spike is certainly lacking. That's not my morality- its the shows.

So your whole belief that he should make amends is because everyone else did it? That's your answer?

How is brutally murdering somebody in cold blood not worse than trying to rape somebody?

No one said it was. Specifically I never said that.

Two evil actions against two slayers. One gets an apology and the other gets the opposite. I don't get how you cannot see the discrepancy there.

Um, maybe because the only discrepancy is that you think all people are the same. There is no discrepancy. Different people, different circumstances. Simple as that.

Well, hypocrisy certainly is one of the most common negative human traits, far more common than a lot of the ones I mentioned. As is rudeness.

Oh, so it's common and not the worst now. I agree it's common.

 

[Buffy Summers]

The point is that as a human being, Spike should feel bad for the things that he'd done. Because supposedly that's what makes him human and not a demon.

Whether he's at fault or not doesn't really come into it - if I'm brainwashed and kill someone in a trance state I had no control over, I'm still going to feel bad that it happened.

Now, how good of a person Spike is, will determine how much guilt he's actually going to feel. But he technically "should" feel guilty. Whether it's in his character to is another question altogether.

 

[gite63]

Not quite fair data. Though I want to believe that he is ok now too. He is just like the first souled one not very trustworthy guy. Still have demons in them, can't help that.

So, are you saying that Spike has been killing people, or doing some evil here and there, and anybody knows nothing about it? I believe we can say that we know what Spike is and isn't capable of doing by now.


 

But then if I steal a parking space of someone and I see it's someone I know, then I would apologize. Doesn't mean it's hypocritical. One person matters to me and one doesn't.

Angel caused thousands of deaths as Twilight (icluding hundreds of Slayers), and killed Giles. Giles was brought back, so everything is OK among the Scoobies.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The point is that as a human being, Spike

But he's not a human being.

 

[Buffy Summers]

But he has a soul, which for all intents and purposes - and the way it is interpreted by the show - makes him human and not a demon.

 

[Silverspike]

Imo he's a case of 'a little from pile A and a little from pile B'. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But he has a soul, which for all intents and purposes - and the way it is interpreted by the show - makes him human and not a demon.

Eh. If you say so. I am not even going to bother getting into that.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Imo he's a case of 'a little from pile A and a little from pile B'. 🙂

That's fine and everything, but then what is the point of Spike having a soul? What does that actually mean? Either he has humanity or he doesn't.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

what is the point of Spike having a soul? What does that actually mean?

It means he has a proclivity to do good versus evil. According to how Joss Whedon first described the soul and its affect on people.

 

[Silverspike]

Does it need to mean anything? Spike and Angel are what they are and that is unique amongst their kind. In reality they are reanimated corpses, so far from being human, even with a soul.

 

[Buffy Summers]

It means he has a proclivity to do good versus evil. According to how Joss Whedon first described the soul and its affect on people.

So it makes him a "good" person?

Does it need to mean anything? Spike and Angel are what they are and that is unique amongst their kind. In reality they are reanimated corpses, so far from being human, even with a soul.

Well, for the purposes of this discussion, it does make a difference. Because it informs what the difference is between Spike without a soul and Spike with a soul. If it doesn't give him humanity then what does it do?

If the soul doesn't matter, then Spike definitely should atone more for what he did before he got a soul, because then he is definitely at fault.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So it makes him a "good" person?

No. It means that they are inclined to do good. He said (paraphrasing) you can be good or evil with a soul. But you are more inclined to do good with a soul than evil. If you do evil it goes against the nature of the soul. But a soul doesnt 'make' you anything.

edit: He also said that you can be evil and still do good without a soul as well... but you are just going against your true nature.

 

[Firstina]

So, are you saying that Spike has been killing people, or doing some evil here and there, and anybody knows nothing about it? I believe we can say that we know what Spike is and isn't capable of doing by now.

Nope. Nothing like that. And you quoted not the whole phrase - I said that Spike was capable of bad stuff looking pretty decent before. Everyone trusted him uincluding Buffy - and she paid an awful price.
Just saying that both Angel and Spike are vampires after all and even with a soul not all that fluffy and safe kittens and have a power to do some damage.

 

[Buffy Summers]

No. It means that they are inclined to do good. He said (paraphrasing) you can be good or evil with a soul. But you are more inclined to do good with a soul than evil. If you do evil it goes against the nature of the soul. But a soul doesnt 'make' you anything.

Which is why I said he "should" feel guilty, but that doesn't mean he does or is inclined to.