Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[Silverspike]

My take in it is that every vamp is different, that and the fact Spike asked for his soul and so his demon adjusted differently to Angel who had his foisted on him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Which is why I said he "should" feel guilty, but that doesn't mean he does or is inclined to.

But you said as a human he should feel guilty. He's not human. Even with a soul he's not human. He is a vampire. I just dont see why he should feel guilt- specifically for killing a slayer (for the buffy sexually assault yes, and he did) but not for killing someone that would kill him.

 

[gite63]

Nope. Nothing like that. And you quoted not the whole phrase - I said that Spike was capable of bad stuff looking pretty decent before. Everyone trusted him uincluding Buffy - and she paid an awful price.

I didn't quote the whole phrase because you were referring to soulless Spike, and then I kind of agree. But by now, I think we can say that souled Spike is good and can be trusted. He won over his demon.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

My take in it is that every vamp is different, that and the fact Spike asked for his soul and so his demon adjusted differently to Angel who had his foisted on him.

Exactly.. and Darla 'inherited' the soul. The only one that acted like the soul was a burden or that felt remorse for EVERYTHING was Angel. That was because of the curse.

 

[Firstina]

My take in it is that every vamp is different, that and the fact Spike asked for his soul and so his demon adjusted differently to Angel who had his foisted on him.

Yep, not arguing here. Just saying that they both have their personal immoral compass alongside with moral one. Anything could happen.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I said human in the sense that the soul seems to be the source of humanity, that when there are only two choices, demon or human, the soul is what makes the person human.

I just dont see why he should feel guilt- specifically for killing a slayer (for the buffy sexually assault yes, and he did) but not for killing someone that would kill him.

He should feel guilt because he killed someone. That doesn't mean he should think he should have let her kill him, but he can still have feelings about it. Even if you kill someone in battle, if when the war is over you meet that person's child, you should feel bad that you killed their parent. Doesn't mean you would do anything differently. But that's what pointing more toward good than evil means.

Personally, I don't really think Spike needs to atone more for what he did without a soul, but it would have been nice if he had felt bad about it. And not just in the, "Oh, Buffy's mad at me now so I feel bad" sort of way.

I didn't bring Angel into my argument at all, and I don't think it's relevant. The question is, how was Spike different before and after.

 

[Firstina]

I didn't quote the whole phrase because you were referring to soulless Spike, and then I kind of agree. But by now, I think we can say that souled Spike is good and can be trusted. He won over his demon.

Just my POV, but you can't in this case win over your demon once and for all - it's a constant everyday fight - like in the picture with the devil on your left and angel on your right.
Today Spike's soul is having a better score, but tommorow it can change.
So why are we assuming that only soul but not the demon can win back it's place?

 

[gite63]

So why are we assuming that only soul but not the demon can win back his place?

Well, until now it is what happens; Angel did some not-so-good things souled, but the demon has never taken over; it was his choices, as a "human being" (see discussion above). And there was some good in Spike even when he had no soul, IMO. Now in the comics, he had to fight his demon - but the demon was being controlled by a powerful Demon Lord, it wasn't like he was having trouble with it, craving blood or killing people.

 

[Silverspike]

From 'Damage'


SPIKE
Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off.

ANGEL
(walks in)
A lot of pain?

SPIKE
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

ANGEL
(sighs)
I didn't say that.

SPIKE
No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL
I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.

SPIKE
What happens to her?

ANGEL
I don't know. Um, Andrew and the slayers took her. Didn't trust us to help her.

SPIKE
Andrew double-crossed us? That's a good move.
(chuckles)
Hope for the little ponce yet. Though the tingling in my forearms tells me she's too far gone to help. She's...one of us now. She's a monster.

ANGEL
She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE
So were we... once upon a time.

ANGEL
Once upon a time.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Even if you kill someone in battle, if when the war is over you meet that person's child, you should feel bad that you killed their parent. Doesn't mean you would do anything differently.

I agree. That's what I said all along. He could feel bad, and he does feel bad for some things. But that doesnt mean feeling guilt. Or feel like you have to atone. There is a difference between feeling bad and feeling guilt. But again.. how many people do 'bad' things and don't feel bad for it? It happened all the time on the show.

 

[EVIL UU]

But he has a soul, which for all intents and purposes - and the way it is interpreted by the show - makes him human and not a demon.

I think that it makes him a demon with a soul - a soul doesn't make one a human. There are humans without a soul ( like Ryan Anderson for example ) in Buffyverse.

That's fine and everything, but then what is the point of Spike having a soul? What does that actually mean? Either he has humanity or he doesn't.

Humanity =/= morality. In my opinion Spike's blatant disregard for Wood's mother certainly fits into the spectrum of human behaviour.

 

[thetopher]

So your whole belief that he should make amends is because everyone else did it? That's your answer?

My 'belief' as you put it is what we've been shown on the show. And I never said 'amends' or atone but maybe, like everybody else, show some guilt/remorse/ signs of grown/humanity change at getting a soul.
Saying that Spike could feel bad but could also not be guilty is utterly irrelevant since he feels neither.

No one said it was. Specifically I never said that.

Well you said that it's right that Spike felt bad for trying to rape Buffy but not for stalking and murdering somebody (a champion of good no less). You claimed that he was 'doing his job' (he wasn't at all but there we are) so it's okay for him to act this way.
Even after the fact you think it's okay for him to rub the son's nose in his grief.

Personally I think that reflects on Spike's character as a whole and leaves me puzzled as to what morality he adheres to.

Um, maybe because the only discrepancy is that you think all people are the same.

Show we where I said that everybody should react exactly the same?

On the other hand I do expect to see some signs of remorse from the guy who 'thinks' he did those evil things.
Either he feels nothing for all his past actions or he feels 'something' for all the bad he did- yet he feels nothing for what he did to Nikki Wood.

But no, he feels bad for Buffy and only Buffy in the end which is my whole point. Spike doesn't do atonement, he's a romantic- its all about the girl.

There is no discrepancy. Different people, different circumstances. Simple as that.

It's never as simple as that. Humanity/morality is infinitely complex and has been debated for thousands of years. Shrugging and saying 'well, everybody's different' is honestly just plain lazy arguing. But we're talking in circles- you'll never get my POV and I'll certainly never understand yours.

Oh, so it's common and not the worst now. I agree it's common.

Truly I'm honoured that you agree.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Truly I'm honoured that you agree.

You showed your ass to me twice without cause or merit. Speaking to you is akin to ramming my head into a brick wall, save a brick wall actually serves a purpose. I am out of here.

 

[thetopher]

You showed your ass to me twice without cause or merit.

Hey, I didn't start anything here. You chose to be facetious first with your 'I'd love to live in your world' comment. 

Speaking to you is akin to ramming my head into a brick wall, save a brick wall actually serves a purpose.

Believe me the feeling is utterly mutual.

 

[gite63]

So, the demon got himself a soul because he felt bad for what he had done (to Buffy).

Then, he was a vampire with a soul, who felt horrible about his past:

Beneath You

And—and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did... everyone I - and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath - beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... to hell.

Sleeper

No, not the chip! Not the chip, dammit. You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then - Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy.

Then, Wood traps him and tries to kill him; at that moment, he says “I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a Slayer. I was a vampire”, and he keeps wearing the coat.

Then he sacrifices himself, to save the world.

He comes back, and keeps fighting for the good side; in Damage, we learn a little bit more of how he feels. Then, he gladly accepts taking part of Angel's plan, one that could have got him killed again (instead, he ends up in Hell).

As someone has already said, actions speak louder then words. He does not brood. Spike is atoning by doing good; many times he felt he hadn't any chance with Buffy, or that he would die and certainly would not have any chance with Buffy, and still he kept fighting (so, no, he wasn't doing good to get into Buffy's pants); having a soul doesn't mean that he automatically would want to keep fighting, he could have left and live his undead life away from all the trouble.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Let's not get overly nostalgic about Nikki Wood. From the point of view of the vampire world, she was a serial killer. Robin Wood becomes the equivalent of Holtz in Angel - someone so blinded by revenge that he would kill the best fighter on his side right before the final fight. Jenny's family also sought revenge against Angel and it didn't do her or her uncle any good either. The Sicilians (who gave us the word "vendetta") have two sayings about vengeance:

1. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
2. If you wish revenge, begin by digging two graves (for your target and yourself).

The law of the land does not condone vengeance. ""Vengeance is mine,"saith the Lord". I think we can see that the Whedonverse says the same thing.

In the vampire world, Spike was a supersoldier, someone who would compare with the best military snipers and elite forces we have. No one in those groups believe they need to atone for what they did.

 

[thetopher]

Then he sacrifices himself, to save the world.

This isn't a 'Is Spike a hero' thread?' because, judging by his overall actions of course he is. This is about him showing atonement/remorse for his past actions- which he doesn't to any meaningful degree. That's the question that was asked.

From all evidence Spike doesn't do atonement, it makes him very different from Angel which I guess is what the writers were going for.

He does not brood. Spike is atoning by doing good;

No he isn't. That isn't why he got a soul, nor is it why he's in Sunnydale, nor is it why he's currently in San Francisco. He did those things to be with Buffy or to help Buffy- the person he truly cares for. This is romantic but it is not atonement.
Only when he sacrifices himself in 'Chosen' (which isn't a bout Buffy its about his soul) and works with Angel and co in LA is he fighting just for the sake of it. That is making amends.

He comes back, and keeps fighting for the good side

Eh, eventually, It takes some doing though, and he tries to screw over Angel a couple of times. But yeah, he gets around to doing good.

in Damage, we learn a little bit more of how he feels.

No, we see him learning. We knew perfectly well how Spike felt about his past actions before this episode. These events give him another perspective and so we see him come to view things a little from Angel's POV. That's the whole point of the end scene.

Then, he gladly accepts taking part of Angel's plan, one that could have got him killed again (instead, he ends up in Hell).

I think I've said that the idea of Spike's atonement was at least brought up in Angel S5.

Let's not get overly nostalgic about Nikki Wood. From the point of view of the vampire world, she was a serial killer.

Then so is Buffy, and so you should be rooting for her to die in every episode. 😉
From evil people's perspective I guess all 'good' people are just there trying to spoil there fun/kill them. The Master's an icon, The Mayor's a hero who build a fabulous party town (he may have even saved the world a couple of times in the thirties) and all vampires are put-upon victims just trying to make their way in the world.
We see what slayers do- they kill vampires and in the process save the lives of innocent people. That's the point.

And what Robin Wood did to Spike was wrong, of course it was, he very much is like Holtz (although he doesn't destroy any innocent lives in the process of his vengeance, nor is Angel at that point really a threat to anyone) but its not just about that.
It speaks to Spike's thoughts on Nikki Wood, a girl very much like Buffy, whose life Spike took. Even with a soul Spike feels pride at these actions which is actually kinda horrible.

 

[Silverspike]

"Only when he sacrifices himself in 'Chosen' (which isn't a bout Buffy its about his soul) and works with Angel and co in LA is he fighting just for the sake of it. That is making amends."

Ah well, there you go then. Issue solved. 😀

 

[white avenger]

And what Robin Wood did to Spike was wrong, of course it was, he very much is like Holtz (although he doesn't destroy any innocent lives in the process of his vengeance, nor is Angel at that point really a threat to anyone) but its not just about that.
.

But Wood DOES try to destroy an innocent life. Spike's. By that time, Spike has a soul, and by Buffyverse canon, is literally a new man, no longer the monster who killed Nikki Wood, of which Wood is apparently aware, from his statement, "I don't want to hill you, Spike, I want to kill the monster who killed my mother."

Wood allowed his obsession with simple revenge to cloud his judgement. He was so obsessed with killing Spike that it apparently never even occurred to him that he was playing into the First Evil's plans by trying to do so.

 

[thetopher]

But Wood DOES try to destroy an innocent life. Spike's.

Spike is not an innocent man, he has killing (whilst being controlled) and is, at that time, also a dangerous tool of the First.