Should they have brought Buffy back?

[Faith717132]

Yes

Buffy should have been brought back.

 

[Kendra371]

NO

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe Buffy should've stayed dead and at peace with her mother in heaven. I can understand why Willow and the others would be concerned about Buffy's whereabouts in the afterlife after the dimensions were intertwining. My problem is that they just automatically assumed she was being tortured. They didn't think of the possibility she was in a "good place"

So Willow thinks shes doing the good thing by saving her friend from hell, they perform a powerful dark ritual to resurrect Buffy not caring about consequences... Now while this might seem as a valid excuse for them to do this (Saving Buffy from a hell dimension) what transpires after is utterly disgusting. Its very obvious Buffy is not all there. Shes a bit off/unhappy. Instead of giving her time to cope or get accustomed to life again, shes brought back to save her friends from a demon biker gang. Later shes sat down by her so called friends who tell her that the bills are all backed up (Mind you they were living there, why no one was helping to contribute to the bills? ... WILLOW!) she might lose the house. Later to find out her sister is a big hot mess and child protective services are threatening to take her. No one allowed Buffy the proper time she needed to get herself together. They brought her back to put all this pressure on her and it was unnecessary. What they did to her was very traumatizing and it seemed to me the only reason why they bothered bringing Buffy back was to solve everyone else's problems. Then Giles basically leaves her at the time she needed someone the most. I lost respect for everyone that season. The only one I respected was Tara.

Now we get to the first, this was a plot completely overlooked and never addressed. Buffy's resurrection, her "being" was the cause of the 1st's attack. So that means it was the Scoobie gangs fault?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

In "Forever" 5ABB17, Dawn tries to bring her mother back via magic and everyone is certain that it is the wrong thing to do, including Willow. Furthermore, they seem to know about the bad effects of the spell and the difference of the returned person.

What changed?

When Buffy came back, in "After Life" 6ABB03, there is a demon that the spell created that threatened to destroy Buffy. It seemed to be something that was found with a little research that should have been done before the spell.

But of course, where would the series be without Buffy? She had to come back using whatever plot technique seemed to be a valid choice at the time - and one that would result in further drama.

 

[Kendra371]

In "Forever" 5ABB17, Dawn tries to bring her mother back via magic and everyone is certain that it is the wrong thing to do, including Willow. Furthermore, they seem to know about the bad effects of the spell and the difference of the returned person.

What changed?

When Buffy came back, in "After Life" 6ABB03, there is a demon that the spell created that threatened to destroy Buffy. It seemed to be something that was found with a little research that should have been done before the spell.

But of course, where would the series be without Buffy? She had to come back using whatever plot technique seemed to be a valid choice at the time - and one that would result in further drama.

If I recall, the circumstances in both spells were entirely different. In the case of Dawn's ritual, her mother had a high probability of returning "wrong" or "zombie like" due her death being natural. The shot of Joyce walking was extremely disturbing because you could already tell that Joyce wasn't "there" she was a walking corpse. Pale, emotionless, etc.
Natural death wasn't to be played with in regards to resurrections. Those were extremely dangerous.

In Buffy's case, there was a scape goat because her death was caused by mystical forces. So Buffy had a chance to return normal without the effects of being a zombie like Joyce. But one thing thats a common factor was the consequence of using dark magic. Magic always has a price. As said by Spike. So that little ghost thingy trying to kill Buffy was the counter effect. I wish Joss Whedon had explored the true nature and consequences of dabbling with magick, instead of doing a corny metaphor for drug addiction. Everytime I watch season 6, I think of how Willow turn to the dark side could've been done so differently by actually showcasing Magick and black side to it. Not those corny seens of her being "JUICED UP" and "WIRED"

 

[Ethan Reigns]

There is one loose end in this story - after Buffy died the second time, wouldn't another slayer automatically be called? This would be separate from Faith, who was Kendra's successor.

When Kendra was called after the brief 2-minute death of Buffy which no one knew about except Xander, she was sent from a village in Africa to Sunnydale. It follows that when Buffy died the second time, another slayer should have been called and sent to Sunnydale. After all, there was a verifible death, witnessed by the watcher and Buffy was dead for 147 days - certainly more time than it took to deliver Kendra to Sunnydale. Sunnydale was one site of a hellmouth (another being Cleveland), and the slayer would have naturally been assigned to a hellmouth with no active slayer. Even if the slayer had gone to Cleveland, she would have shown up for Season 7 where all the action was in Sunnydale.

The writers need a consistent road map to work from with all consequences for all actions spelled out.

 

[Robb Stark]

There is one loose end in this story - after Buffy died the second time, wouldn't another slayer automatically be called? This would be separate from Faith, who was Kendra's successor.

When Kendra was called after the brief 2-minute death of Buffy which no one knew about except Xander, she was sent from a village in Africa to Sunnydale. It follows that when Buffy died the second time, another slayer should have been called and sent to Sunnydale. After all, there was a verifible death, witnessed by the watcher and Buffy was dead for 147 days - certainly more time than it took to deliver Kendra to Sunnydale. Sunnydale was one site of a hellmouth (another being Cleveland), and the slayer would have naturally been assigned to a hellmouth with no active slayer. Even if the slayer had gone to Cleveland, she would have shown up for Season 7 where all the action was in Sunnydale.

The writers need a consistent road map to work from with all consequences for all actions spelled out.

I don't think the Watchers Council has any say at all in which Slayer is called. I think it's a by-product of the original spell from thousands of years ago. As soon as a Slayer is killed, even, apparently, if it's just for a few moments, the next Slayer is activated. The Watchers Council clearly doesn't have any discretion in this because if they did, they never would have chosen Faith, given how totally screwed up she was.

Also, I think when Buffy died the first time, that was the end of her official place in the Slayer line. Obviously, her death and return was unprecedented, but I think from that point onwards, for the purposes of the Slayer spell, Faith is "the" Slayer. When she dies, another would be called (or would have been, before "Chosen").

 

[TotallySpiked]

I was always under the impression that since a Slayer was only supposed to die once that they would only receive one replacement Slayer. Kendra being Buffy's and Faith being Kendra's. Kendra was already called in place of Buffy, she was technically no longer the Slayer since she was supposed to dead and would therefore not get another replacement Slayer after her death in season 5.

Question, when Xander revives Buffy in season 1, does this throw off the natural order of things too as Kendra is called but Buffy still lives?
But when it is revealed that Buffy being alive has thrown off the natural order of things - that's directly linked to the resurrection of season 6 only?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

If Buffy was no longer a slayer after her first death, why did she still have a watcher? Is the next slayer automatically called? I don't think so. With both Merrick (in the movie) and the first call of Buffy at Hemery High, the Watchers' Council has to activate the slayer - she knows nothing about it until she is called.

Obviously the Potentials were tracked by the Bringers - there must be some traceable sign of being a Potential before being called to be a slayer.

 

[white avenger]

I was always under the impression that since a Slayer was only supposed to die once that they would only receive one replacement Slayer. Kendra being Buffy's and Faith being Kendra's. Kendra was already called in place of Buffy, she was technically no longer the Slayer since she was supposed to dead and would therefore not get another replacement Slayer after her death in season 5.

Question, when Xander revives Buffy in season 1, does this throw off the natural order of things too as Kendra is called but Buffy still lives?
But when it is revealed that Buffy being alive has thrown off the natural order of things - that's directly linked to the resurrection of season 6 only?

It's been theorized that when Willow resurrected Buffy at the beginning of Season 6, it started a whole new Slayer line, and that it was the existence of the two Slayer LINES, not the Slayers themselves, that threw everything out of kilter. That's why Buffy activating all of the Potentials didn't compound the situation. The actual number of Slayers in the world is irrelevant.

 

[TotallySpiked]

It's been theorized that when Willow resurrected Buffy at the beginning of Season 6, it started a whole new Slayer line, and that it was the existence of the two Slayer LINES, not the Slayers themselves, that threw everything out of kilter. That's why Buffy activating all of the Potentials didn't compound the situation. The actual number of Slayers in the world is irrelevant.

Thanks for clearing that up for me 🙂

 

[Kerri with a K]

This is a hard question. Especially with all that went on during season 6 after Buffy was resurrected.

So, yes and no. Willow was wrong, and selfish, and immature in wanting Buffy back. Actually, the entire Scooby gang were that way, only Willow was the leader, so that makes her look worse. I'm pretty sure Tara was concerned and asked Willow if she knew what she was doing. I think they all knew it was wrong, but being so overwhelmed with grief, it was hard to see the reality of the situation, and they just assumed Buffy was in hell, and being tortured.

As for the "Willow was totally justified" part... I think with Faith being in jail, or MIA or wherever they would have put her had the story been different, I don't think Faith would have been able to really take over the role of main Slayer. She's had the reputation of being on the rogue side. And for the sake of saving the world, guarding the Hellmouth, and fighting the forces of evil, etc, I think Buffy needed to come back.

Just a thought, though.

 

[derose1973]

Never Understood Why they didn't do a Faith Spin Off, I heard they did a Watcher spin off in the UK, I guess the comics is all we have now....

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Never Understood Why they didn't do a Faith Spin Off, I heard they did a Watcher spin off in the UK, I guess the comics is all we have now....

I read that there were plans to do four spinoffs: Angel, Spike, Faith and Ripper (about Giles). Only Angel got made. Ripper would have been interesting.

 

[Kendra371]

Faith Spinoff was planned

Never Understood Why they didn't do a Faith Spin Off, I heard they did a Watcher spin off in the UK, I guess the comics is all we have now....

David Fury and Joss actually had planned a spinoff for Faith. Not just for Faith, but a few other projects that never saw the light of day. In the circumstance surrounding the Faith spinoff, it never happened because Eliza Dushku no longer wanted to play the character anymore. She said she loved Faith and played her for 5 years, but trying to fill Buffy's shoes was a huge responsibility along with a risk. At that time she was also offered the part for Tru Calling. So she had a meeting with Joss telling her to do what she feels is right (so to speak) and chose to do Tru calling. I believe David said the script had her being like a rogue slayer, traveling around on a motorcycle.

I'm going to ask a question regarding the slayer line as discussed prior to this, Buffy drowned and died... activating Kendra. Kendra later was killed by Drucilla, which activated Faith. But in the mist of all that Buffy was still alive. What I don't understand is if Kendra and Faith were the "OFFICIAL" slayers, why was Buffy still obligated to her duty to be a slayer?

Also what confuses me, in season 7 we learned that the first slayer was infused with "powers" or "strength" of a demon... so does this mean that mystical energy surrounding the 1st slayer is also passed on the the future slayers making them part demon? Which explains their super strength and knowledge of weaponry and martial arts, also their fast healing.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm going to ask a question regarding the slayer line as discussed prior to this, Buffy drowned and died... activating Kendra. Kendra later was killed by Drucilla, which activated Faith. But in the mist of all that Buffy was still alive. What I don't understand is if Kendra and Faith were the "OFFICIAL" slayers, why was Buffy still obligated to her duty to be a slayer?

Also what confuses me, in season 7 we learned that the first slayer was infused with "powers" or "strength" of a demon... so does this mean that mystical energy surrounding the 1st slayer is also passed on the the future slayers making them part demon? Which explains their super strength and knowledge of weaponry and martial arts, also their fast healing.

They go into that a bit in S3, when Faith comes to town and Buffy gets accepted to different schools. She talks about, with Faith being in town, that maybe she could have a normal life and move on from being the Slayer, or at least for a while. But then Faith goes crazy and that whole plan gets pretty much nixed. By the time Faith rejoins the good guys in S7, Buffy has really accepted her duty as the Slayer. By S8 she's leading an army of them.

As for the S7 part, I think you're spot on. They identify that the Slayer lineage and power base has demon origins. I don't think a Slayer is part-demon though, not like they say Cordy is. I think, and this is just my take on it, a Slayer is a regular human imbued with special powers and abilities when she's "called", but whatever is that does the calling. That power was, in part, created with demon beginnings, but I don't think it makes the Slayer herself part-demon, if that makes any sense.

 

[Kendra371]

They go into that a bit in S3, when Faith comes to town and Buffy gets accepted to different schools. She talks about, with Faith being in town, that maybe she could have a normal life and move on from being the Slayer, or at least for a while. But then Faith goes crazy and that whole plan gets pretty much nixed. By the time Faith rejoins the good guys in S7, Buffy has really accepted her duty as the Slayer. By S8 she's leading an army of them.

As for the S7 part, I think you're spot on. They identify that the Slayer lineage and power base has demon origins. I don't think a Slayer is part-demon though, not like they say Cordy is. I think, and this is just my take on it, a Slayer is a regular human imbued with special powers and abilities when she's "called", but whatever is that does the calling. That power was, in part, created with demon beginnings, but I don't think it makes the Slayer herself part-demon, if that makes any sense.

I get what your saying completely and thanks for your views on this.
As far as Buffy and Faith, yes, she totally went on a power trip leaving Buffy to remain the official slayer. But, that mystical force that imbues a slayer with her strength (etc) shouldn't that have left Buffy when she died completely normal upon her revival? Whatever it is that gives a slayer their strength/activation was given to Kendra. So if that force remained in Buffy even in death how could another slayer be activated?

 

[Kean]

But, this is Buffy we're talking about, and a whole lot of people would be dead if Willow hadn't brought her back. All the lives she's gone on to save? I don't think that's wrong.

It's impossible to imagine what things would have looked like if Buffy had stayed dead but I can't help but feel a lot of pain and a lot of death would have been avoided. The chain reaction of events that were put in motion because of Buffy's resurrection was nothing short of cataclysmic.

I agree with the OP completely. I've never quite forgiven Willow for this one.

 

[Kendra371]

@ Always Bangel
But, this is Buffy we're talking about, and a whole lot of people would be dead if Willow hadn't brought her back. All the lives she's gone on to save? I don't think that's wrong.

I have to disagree with this. People were dying long before Buffy was even called to be a slayer. People were still dying even when Buffy was alive. Buffy helped a great deal with it, but death was simply unavoidable whether she was alive or not. It was what 3 months she was dead? If things got to crazy, then the council should've stepped up and intervened in the situation. The season proved that the council were completely useless.

Either
-Rehabilitate Faith and have her get help from Giles or Angel so she could continue her slayer duties
-Enter a protocol and strip Faith of her slayer lineage and activate someone else
- If SunnyDale was in dire condition, why didn't Willow just contact Angel for help?

What we saw in "Bargaining" was a huge exaggeration. First of all a demonic biker gang? That was ridiculous. But I get it, they just needed an easy excuse to have Willow bring her back from the dead to have the show continue.

IMO I felt Buffy's death was the perfect opportunity for the Faith spin off. She was a very deep and dark character who I felt had more layers than Buffy. I would've loved to see her reaction in prison finding out Buffy had died. Angel being the one telling her of course. Her telling him the condition of SunnyDale and that they need a slayer. The scene of her breaking out of prison like season 4 but to aid those in need. I would've loved to see her over Buffy's grave... I can dream lol

This also would've brought up so many new dynamics for Faith... we know Buffy was willing to sacrifice herself for the world, but would Faith do the same? Would Faith be able to make the same sacrifices that we've seen Buffy do over the first 5 years of the show?
I don't believe Faith would hang around the scoobies or stay in SunnyDale, I think David Fury had the right idea of having her more of like a rogue figure being on the run from the law.

 

[Robb Stark]

I have to disagree with this. People were dying long before Buffy was even called to be a slayer. People were still dying even when Buffy was alive. Buffy helped a great deal with it, but death was simply unavoidable whether she was alive or not. It was what 3 months she was dead? If things got to crazy, then the council should've stepped up and intervened in the situation. The season proved that the council were completely useless.

Either
-Rehabilitate Faith and have her get help from Giles or Angel so she could continue her slayer duties
-Enter a protocol and strip Faith of her slayer lineage and activate someone else
- If SunnyDale was in dire condition, why didn't Willow just contact Angel for help?

I can't see the logic in this. The argument that "people were dying before Buffy was called and that death is unavoidable" doesn't hold much water to me. By that line of thinking, there's no point in fighting at all, and we should all just sit back and do nothing to save people or try to better the world, because death is coming anyways. Sorry, I don't get that at all.

Willow and the gang not going to Angel for help (and Angel not checking out to see if they needed help) is one of the single biggest plot holes of the entire series. I mean, knowing that the characters by that point belonged to different networks and were therefore limited in how they could crossover with one another obviously plays into it. But just from a story standpoint it makes zero sense that Willow, who was the one telling Angel Buffy had died, wouldn't go to Angel if things were that dire. There's no way Angel would have refused to help.

Actually, if they'd been able to avoid the legal entanglements, having Angel come back to Sunnydale while Buffy was dead would have been really interesting. Considering how little the shows really crossed over, having Angel in the first two episodes of S6 and playing a role in Buffy's resurrection would have been cool.

 

[Kendra371]

I can't see the logic in this. The argument that "people were dying before Buffy was called and that death is unavoidable" doesn't hold much water to me. By that line of thinking, there's no point in fighting at all, and we should all just sit back and do nothing to save people or try to better the world, because death is coming anyways. Sorry, I don't get that at all.

Willow and the gang not going to Angel for help (and Angel not checking out to see if they needed help) is one of the single biggest plot holes of the entire series. I mean, knowing that the characters by that point belonged to different networks and were therefore limited in how they could crossover with one another obviously plays into it. But just from a story standpoint it makes zero sense that Willow, who was the one telling Angel Buffy had died, wouldn't go to Angel if things were that dire. There's no way Angel would have refused to help.

Actually, if they'd been able to avoid the legal entanglements, having Angel come back to Sunnydale while Buffy was dead would have been really interesting. Considering how little the shows really crossed over, having Angel in the first two episodes of S6 and playing a role in Buffy's resurrection would have been cool.

Buffy saved people yes, the episode "Prom" we learned that class had the lowest mortality rate. Buffy did make a difference. Death was unavoidable because people were still killed during her duty. As much as Buffy fought for the greater good evil never seemed to cease, people kept dying, and she kept fighting. Thats how it was. Before, during, and after her slayer calling death continued so IMO as much as Buffy fought Death was unavoidable. She could've chosen not to fight because like you said what would be the point? but she did to make SunnyDale a better place and duty. This is the same issue the First tried planting to Buffy as Joyce in her dream and the logic of season 7.

"Evil is a part of us, all of us. Its natural. And theres nothing you can do to stop it."

Evil is in everyone and everything. It will always exist. Whether Buffy is alive or dead, evil will run amuck. People/innocents will die. Which is why I said death is unavoidable. We have the Slayers, the Scoobies, The Fang Gang who fight the war but death will always be a factor.
Cordelia, Doyle, Fred, Wesley, Anya, Tara, Jenny, 98%(I think LOL) of potentials, Jesse... and a whole lot of others have died.

Buffy staying dead wouldn't have changed anything. (Mortality rate yes) If it was so easy for a biker demon gang to take full control of a town, then what about other places? Why just SunnyDale? Where the hell were the law enforcement? Which is why I feel "Bargaining" was so over exaggerated.

I love your idea of Angel crossing over for "Bargaining".
I agree with what you said, though even if he couldn't appear, a Angel mentioning would've been nice. Story wise I mean. "Heartthrob" was pretty dull.
They could've just shot Angel's return to LA coming from SunnyDale instead of having him return from a retreat. That way it could've been kind of like a crossover aiding the scoobies.