Slut-shaming

Hey, I'll admit I like to dress sexy now and then... The other night I was wearing a tight fitting black skirt, black - what my friend and I call "say hi to me" boots (they have another name but since mine don't have heels due to my extreme klutziness, we call them that) and a tight fitting top.., some guy in a truck pulled up next to me and rolled down his window and said "hey baby.". And I laughed. I mean, what am I gonna do? Get pissed? I was, after all, wearing a 'hey baby' outfit. But I think the subtext of this thread runs deeper than that... Women's sexuality is advertised, marketed, billboarded....but a woman expressing her sexual nature is still considered by and large to be shameful, whereas a man expressing his is considered admirable.


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Yeah but it stems from our patriarchal society. Of course women buy into it. That's what makes it all the worse. It's so embedded in our society.

Sure, because misogyny/patriarchy (or any historically oppressive structure) is all about how women are perceived by men. So first of all, other women are the competition. Secondly if they are seen as agreeing with the oppressors, they are seen more favorably as those "other" women.

Completely agree, most of the shaming I've seen comes from women. Buzzfeed had an interesting article the last couple of days about the letters Sinéad O'Connor was sending to Miley Cyrus, and how they were basically slut-shaming - would you guys agree with that?
I think she made some interesting points, but I also understand the assertions of those who say she was slut-shaming. I just read this interesting article: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philfo...with-sinead-oconners-comments-on-miley-cyrus/

And thats another thing, the quote is as offensive to guys, it says that if you like looking at a girl dressed like that, your not a real man. If your a young guy you are going to find scantly clad women nice to look at on impulse, the quote shames boys too (though it is aimed at girls, I'm not denying that).
And that's the thing: feminism is not about man-hating. Sure there are some man-hating feminists out there. But most feminists I know actually feel that misogyny/patriarchy does a grave disservice to men as well. It's demeaning to perpetuate this myth that men can't control themselves simply because of a woman's clothing!
 
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OFAWB
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eponinethen
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Robynrainbow
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All the sexism I've encountered lately is extremely disheartening. It's so toxic that I actually feel healthier when I cut misogynists out of my life. This is hard to do, though, since many of those misogynists are closely connected to me through blood or other means.

I don't know if I've simply become more sensitive (and some of you pointed out my sensitivity, which does exist) or if I'm really dealing with more sexism than I had in the past. But it really is bothering me deeply. As a matter of fact, hidden sexism bothers me even more than open sexism does. Finding out that someone (and yes, this someone could be male or female, since you're all right that there are some very misogynistic women around) thinks that being female makes one less-than; an object; someone who should primarily make others, particularly men, happy; a prize to be won or conquered; in PRIVATE but acts respectfully to me in public is very enraging.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around why it's bothering me so much lately. It's always made me upset, but my feelings have intensified. If my neighbor had posted that image a few months ago, I would have not gotten this angry about it.
 
It's hard for me to wrap my head around why it's bothering me so much lately. It's always made me upset, but my feelings have intensified. If my neighbor had posted that image a few months ago, I would have not gotten this angry about it.

Perhaps you want to go out there and "sow some wild oats" as it were. If you do than you should not feel guilty about it in the least. Go out and enjoy yourself, if that's what you want to do.

As for the slut-shaming thing being often driven by girls; I think much of it is jealousy from girls who wish they could be that opened with their sexuality but do not because they are too worried about what others might think.
 
Well, I think a lot of young women have been taught that sex is dirty, something that "bad girls" enjoy too much. By shaming those who they perceive to be too sexual, they get to proclaim themselves as "good girls".

In my experience, the insistence that women (or anyone, really) cover up certain parts of their bodies just sexualizes them even more. If you live in a place where women don't show their elbows and collarbones, then elbows and collarbones are eroticized. Mystery sensitizes people to things.

I actually don't know what I want, fitz1980, but thanks for your advice. After a 14-month relationship ended this summer, I'm enjoying the concept of freedom but am not currently acting on it. It would require more time, desire, energy, and money than I care to invest at the moment.
 
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OFAWB, I don't think you are overly sensitive. And you guys/men reading this, it is not up to you to decide whether a woman is too sensitive when it comes to misogyny. The reason we react (and are perceived "sensitive") is because we have met misogyny and sexism probably our whole lives. You tend to recognize the patterns and norms behind it all. And you tend to react on things that in themselves might not be that big, but are connected to our patriarchal sexist systems.

some guy in a truck pulled up next to me and rolled down his window and said "hey baby.". And I laughed. I mean, what am I gonna do? Get pissed? I was, after all, wearing a 'hey baby' outfit. But I think the subtext of this thread runs deeper than that...
I guess there isn't much you can do in a situation like that, but it is definitely alright to get pissed by the fact that you wearing something would make a guy think you want his attention. Like you said: men tend to think that women/girls/whatever are there for them, and pretty for them and sexy for them.

And no, the quote is not as offensive to men as it is to women. And no, sexism does not affect men (generally and as a group) as much as it affects women (generally and as a group). And feminism is not a struggle that would benefit men and women equally "“ 'cause feminism is founded on the fact that there is in our society a hierarchy between men/masculinity and women/femininity.

(And yes I am an angry feminist. It's a hell of a struggle and you get tired and angry. And sometime rant 😛 )
 
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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Robynrainbow
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I guess there isn't much you can do in a situation like that, but it is definitely alright to get pissed by the fact that you wearing something would make a guy think you want his attention. Like you said: men tend to think that women/girls/whatever are there for them, and pretty for them and sexy for them.

You can get angry or offended by that scenario if you want, but that's choosing to do so. I'm not making an excuse or anything for men that act like pigs, there are plenty of them out there and it is a problem, but if you (the proverbial you) wear an outfit designed to attract sexual attention then it is a bit rich to be offended when you in turn...you know...attract sexual attention. There's no reason for a guy to be crude or insulting like the person described, that's clearly out of line, but dressing up in a party outfit and going to a party with strangers is going to get the attention of strangers. That's not sexism, it's reality. If I walk to the downtown eastside of my hometown, the city's drug area, and get offered to by heroin, I'm going to expect that possibility far more than if I went somewhere else.

And your last sentence there is incredibly sexist. You just innately contradict your previous point. You don't want guys to generalize women's motivations for going out and yet in doing so make an offensive generalization of your own. You don't see the hypocrisy there? I mean, by your own definition of when it is and isn't appropriate for a guy to tell a girl she's being sensitive, who then are you to tell me what "most" of my gender does or does not think about women? It's okay for you make sweeping indictments of men? Why is that? What makes you different than what you're rallying against?
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
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You can get angry or offended by that scenario if you want, but that's choosing to do so. I'm not making an excuse or anything for men that act like pigs, there are plenty of them out there and it is a problem, but if you (the proverbial you) wear an outfit designed to attract sexual attention then it is a bit rich to be offended when you in turn...you know...attract sexual attention. There's no reason for a guy to be crude or insulting like the person described, that's clearly out of line, but dressing up in a party outfit and going to a party with strangers is going to get the attention of strangers. That's not sexism, it's reality. If I walk to the downtown eastside of my hometown, the city's drug area, and get offered to by heroin, I'm going to expect that possibility far more than if I went somewhere else.

And your last sentence there is incredibly sexist. You just innately contradict your previous point. You don't want guys to generalize women's motivations for going out and yet in doing so make an offensive generalization of your own. You don't see the hypocrisy there? I mean, by your own definition of when it is and isn't appropriate for a guy to tell a girl she's being sensitive, who then are you to tell me what "most" of my gender does or does not think about women? It's okay for you make sweeping indictments of men? Why is that? What makes you different than what you're rallying against?

Are you referring to this sentence? "men tend to think that women/girls/whatever are there for them, and pretty for them and sexy for them." ...I mean, are you really denying that there is some truth to that? She said "men tend to think" not "all men think". I'm not trying to be rude, but from my own personal experience most of the guys that *I* have encountered, tend to think it's fine when a girl is dressed like a "slut" (I hate that word and I truly don't know what it means anymore) it's ok if she's flirty and accepts his advances, but when a girl dresses that way and isn't interested, suddenly she's a "whore" and a "slut" or whatever. It's like people think that ALL women dress that way because they want male attention when A) not all women are attracted to men and B) sometimes you just want to look/feel sexy without being groped by a creep or catcalled at.

If I wear something sexy, am I shocked when some guy yells at me on the street? No. Am I annoyed? Yes. It's rude and sometimes embarrassing and it's like, yeah I'm totally thinking "hey you yelled at me and told me that my ass looks hot, lets have sex right now on this street corner!!!" like what does he even hope to gain? I remember reading some article about someone who interviewed guys and asked them why they catcalled at women and a lot of them said they did it *solely* to embarrass the woman or that it was like a male bonding activity. They were like "oh we get bored and it's just fun to see the look on her face" and I don't know about you but I find that to be pretty...sick. Sorry I am going on a tangent, did I say that already? I get so worked up about this stuff.

And look, I get that it sucks and maybe hurts your feeling when a woman (or a man) says "men do *blank*" but they do NOT mean all men, and you shouldn't focus on the semantics and say "hey don't you mean *some* men!!!" because that's not really addressing the issue at hand...but again, the way [MENTION=5362]eponinethen[/MENTION] phrased it didn't sound like that anyway.

tl;dr I hate people who slut shame and it drives me nuts.

edit: I found the article I referenced above
 
Blaze
Blaze
and to be fair, it goes the other way around too, some girls really are like that, not all, probably a minority but still, that's why stereotyping is a dangerous thing
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Ooh great article. There's a lot I could say about it!
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eponinethen
Exactly.
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Robynrainbow
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Hey, if you dress like a tramp, I reserve the right to think you dress like a tramp. Doesn't mean you are one.

I totally agree. To me, there is a big difference between dressing like a tramp and playing up your assets. Back when I was thin, I wore a lot of tight clothing, but not a lot of it showed very much skin. I felt like dressing in tight tops and pants was showing off my curves while still being sexy, without showing all my goods to everyone. And I still think that it's much sexier for a woman to wear clothing that plays up her best features without "giving the milk away for free", so to speak.
If a woman dresses in clothes that show everything, it makes her seem like a tramp to me, and I will probably assume she's trampy. However, it doesn't mean she is one and I try to keep that in the back of my mind.
 
Are you referring to this sentence? "men tend to think that women/girls/whatever are there for them, and pretty for them and sexy for them." ...I mean, are you really denying that there is some truth to that? She said "men tend to think" not "all men think". I'm not trying to be rude, but from my own personal experience most of the guys that *I* have encountered, tend to think it's fine when a girl is dressed like a "slut" (I hate that word and I truly don't know what it means anymore) it's ok if she's flirty and accepts his advances, but when a girl dresses that way and isn't interested, suddenly she's a "whore" and a "slut" or whatever. It's like people think that ALL women dress that way because they want male attention when A) not all women are attracted to men and B) sometimes you just want to look/feel sexy without being groped by a creep or catcalled at.

If I wear something sexy, am I shocked when some guy yells at me on the street? No. Am I annoyed? Yes. It's rude and sometimes embarrassing and it's like, yeah I'm totally thinking "hey you yelled at me and told me that my ass looks hot, lets have sex right now on this street corner!!!" like what does he even hope to gain? I remember reading some article about someone who interviewed guys and asked them why they catcalled at women and a lot of them said they did it *solely* to embarrass the woman or that it was like a male bonding activity. They were like "oh we get bored and it's just fun to see the look on her face" and I don't know about you but I find that to be pretty...sick. Sorry I am going on a tangent, did I say that already? I get so worked up about this stuff.

And look, I get that it sucks and maybe hurts your feeling when a woman (or a man) says "men do *blank*" but they do NOT mean all men, and you shouldn't focus on the semantics and say "hey don't you mean *some* men!!!" because that's not really addressing the issue at hand...but again, the way [MENTION=5362]eponinethen[/MENTION] phrased it didn't sound like that anyway.

tl;dr I hate people who slut shame and it drives me nuts.

edit: I found the article I referenced above

The line I quoted said "most men". That's a generalization. There were parts of her post that were very accurate, as I said. I did fully acknowledge that sexism is a problem, and a very real one. It is. However, it's still unfair to not qualify your generalization. The problem of sexism isn't solved by being sexist back. What [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] said in her "agree" was very apt. There are women who dress very provocatively with the sole purpose of attracting attention from men. There's not a thing in the world wrong with that, I don't give a damn how people spend their time, but it would be very unfair of me to label all women that way. There's no getting around it. If you something like "most men objectify women", that IS sexist. It isn't semantics. It's an important distinction. Otherwise you're just bashing, and that doesn't go anywhere.

And I'm not, for a second, slut-shaming. I just find that in many of these conversations the tone of discussion tends to shift towards "all men objectify women" when that isn't true and it doesn't lead to a productive conversation. Most women are not sluts, and even if they were, I wouldn't care. In my book, as long as you're not hurting anyone I really don't care what you do 🙂
 
Blaze
Blaze
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Right, because there's something wrong with being a slut in a world with safe sex and birth control. People who slut-shame need to do a reality check. We don't use stone tools and we don't live in a savanna anymore, OK?

Freaking troglodytes.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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Imagine a man walking down the street in shorts and people calling him a slut for all the leg he was showing off. For people saying that he was clearly inviting unwanted attention. That if he got it, it was his own fault. That would be weird, right?

Yeah... and yet society has no qualms about doing this to our women. Even more baffling, if a man is called a slut, it is a badge of honour and not a mark against his character.

The thing about slut shaming is that the question isn't "Why is she wearing that?" or "Why is she doing that?" It's "Why do you care so much?"
 
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
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Lyri
Lyri
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nightshade
nightshade
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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And your last sentence there is incredibly sexist. You just innately contradict your previous point. You don't want guys to generalize women's motivations for going out and yet in doing so make an offensive generalization of your own. You don't see the hypocrisy there? I mean, by your own definition of when it is and isn't appropriate for a guy to tell a girl she's being sensitive, who then are you to tell me what "most" of my gender does or does not think about women? It's okay for you make sweeping indictments of men? Why is that? What makes you different than what you're rallying against?
There are women who dress very provocatively with the sole purpose of attracting attention from men. There's not a thing in the world wrong with that, I don't give a damn how people spend their time, but it would be very unfair of me to label all women that way. There's no getting around it. If you something like "most men objectify women", that IS sexist.

Look. You're missing my point. I did not say "most men", and I would not say that (I said "men tend to", and I was talking about men as a group and our society's construction of gender and sexuality). I did not say that most men objectify women, and I don't think that it is wrong per se to see someone as a sexual object. (I never talked about sexual objectification actually.)
I was talking about men as a privileged group, and how our (sexist/patriarchal) society makes men (not "most men" but men as a group) believe that women's sexuality exists for men. Actually, our society creates women's sexuality to be "for men" – this is not something that only men are doing. This has nothing to do with "most men", I am not talking about statistics. I am talking about norms having to do with gender and sexuality.

I also definitely did not say that there it's wrong for women to dress sexy to attract men! I would never say that.

Alright, about telling girls that they are sensitive: This is a tool that people belonging to majority groups have used against minorities for a long time. In Sweden we have these problems right now:
Non-white people point out something racist, and white people say "that isn't racist, it was just a joke, you're being way too sensitive, why do you get angry about this, blah blah".
Straight cis-people say to lgbtq people "come on, you have the right to get married and adopt kids and now we even stopped forced sterilization of transsexuals, why are you still complaining about equal rights?".
Men say "this and that woman made her way to the top (of politics/some business), so obviously women can do it too, sexism doesn't exist!"
To make things very clear – I am not saying that any of you on the boards are saying or would ever say these things. But these are examples of how the "you're over-sensitive"/"you over-react"/"you're exaggerating" argument works.
I am not saying that women can't ever be sensitive, or "too" sensitive. I said what I did because OFAWB said "maybe I'm being too sensitive...", and someone said she was.

Edit: And. I'm not saying women can't be sexist and I'm not saying it's impossible to be sexist "against men" (I'm not sure how you put that but you understand what I mean right?). But be careful how you're using the "you're a sexist" argument. Often when an under-privileged group points inequalities the privileged group makes it look as if they're asking for special treatment. I did not say that "all men are sexists", and I would never say that. It's really problematic and common that men "feel accused" and try to defend themselves (usually by attacking) when women point out something sexist. Just like white people do when non-whites point out something racist.
 
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Robynrainbow
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VisionGirl
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SlayerFest
SlayerFest
ha...I was just having a discussion about that with someone who's swedish...but yeah this is all spot on
[MENTION=5362]eponinethen[/MENTION]

It's irrelevant who you are or what group you belong to, you make use of made up gender stereotypes, you are sexist. [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] is not missing your point, he called you on your bullshit and you just resort to this ideology-fueled intellectual drivel.

Such hypocrisy.
 
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Robynrainbow
It's hardly irrelevant who you are when discussing experiences of sexism
Men tend to objectify women. Women tend to objectify women. Objectification of women is the norm and to make such a statement does not imply blame, it's nobody's fault that we happen to live and have been raised in this society where half naked women adorn billboards and, in the UK at least, you get a pair of breasts with your morning news. It's starting to happen to men, too, which is a very bad turn of events. But when somebody points this out, crying that it's a sexist statement does nothing for the discussion. It's a statement that many sociologists agree with and is arguably a fact.

To deny that there is a part of our brains that occasionally thinks sexist thoughts means we can never work on the problem. I catch myself doing it all the time, I regularly judge other women on their appearances and then have to stop and think "Why am i doing that?". Even the nicest guys I know will occasionally make a comment to the effect of "Why would she wear a top like that when she has such small boobs" and I have to remind them that the woman walking past probably wasn't thinking about them when she got dressed this morning. It's socialised, it doesn't make us bad people.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that it doesn't matter what a woman wears. I have been harassed, groped and catcalled from the smallest mini dress to the full on scarf, coat, hat, boots, gloves winter snow combo- everywhere from a nightclub to a grocery store. Nobody invites that kind of attention by dressing a certain way, and *some* men where I live will occasionally still try it on even if I have my headphones in or my nose in a book. Check out the every day sexism project for examples of this kind of thing- imo it all comes from this idea that my personal space is not valued as much as it should be, like it's everyone's right to comment on my appearance, talk to me etc whenever and whatever I'm doing. And this varies, the more misogynistic a man is the less likely he is to value my space, but all women and men have absorbed these ideas to a certain extent.

The term slut-shaming is an interesting one too. The word 'slut' has been used to change womens behaviour, to make women act a certain way and think a certain way, for a very long time and the concept of the virgin/whore dichotomy has been used for at least 2000 years. If we take another offensive term used to oppress a certain group, say, the offensive term often applied to transsexuals "tranny"- if one of your friends sees a transsexual woman and says that she is a 'tranny' would we say "stop tranny-shaming"? Or if we heard the N word used, would we say "stopn N-shaming"? We would more likely say "don't be transphobic/racist" etc. I don't personally believe that the word 'slut' can be reclaimed, so I would rather not use the word "slut-shaming" and call it what it is- sexism.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

Also it's really nice to see such a conversation happening outside of feminist circles, more in the 'mainstream' if you like.
 
I don't think anyone is "crying", and it is a little rich to suggest that men are innately sexist while also trying to cover yourself by saying that you're not trying to assign blame.

God, I wish people would actually read what has been written on this thread before making comments. I may be wrong, please forgive me if I am, but your post appears tailored as somewhat of a reaction to mine, so with that in mind I would like ANYONE to point out where I said sexism against women isn't a problem. Isolate one comment where I said anything to that effect. My point was that saying things like "men tend to objectify women" is a sexist statement, which it is. My point was that nothing is that the problem of sexism is not solved by generalizing and being sexist back. It may make you feel better, but as you said, it does nothing for the discussion.

EDIT: Also, look at this quote, which was part of the thread a bit earlier: "men tend to think that women/girls/whatever are there for them". That IS a sexist thing to say. While I realize this is a bit of an overstatement (I'm doing it to illustrate a point), sub in "blacks" for "men". Does that make it okay? It's effectively doing the same thing, making broad generalizations about an entire group of people. That's wrong. It's not denying there's a problem, it's not sticking my thumbs in my ears and saying all men are great (obviously they aren't), but it does a disservice to the people out there who are good people, and to me anyways, that is wrong.
 
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Blaze
Blaze
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I know what you mean, I just disagree. Only part of my post was a reaction to yours, the rest was a comment on the general thread. Subbing in a a group of people who are still to this day suffering from prejudice because of their skin colour in placement of a dominant group doesn't work. Maybe "men tend to think" is the wrong language, but I argue that the sentiment that men and women are socialised in to thinking that women are ornamental, for looking at, the 'fairer sex' blah blah is not wrong. When women are trying to talk about sexism they suffer every day, and somebody takes issue with the language used and starts saying "Not all men are like that!" it derails the topic, I've seen it happen a lot. It also happens when people who suffer racism say things about white people- some white people will instantly start to feel victimised and scream "Not ALL white people, what about me!?". And in case you were wondering, I am white. The point is realising that the person isn't talking about you personally, and that changing the subject to be about how *you* feel about another persons suffering is derailing the topic and whether intentionally or not, it shuts down the already limited places where these kinds of discussions can happen.

That's not to say I don't understand your sentiment, though. Privilege checking is some of the hardest work any of us will do. We want to believe that we are good people and that is recognised by other people, but by not challenging the status quo we become part of a system that oppresses and hurts certain groups of people, and simply by existing within a heirarchy we are part of it. Because somebody said that there is a trend in society does not mean the person was attacking you personally. No individual is to blame in these circumstances, no one action or one film or one group or one advert. What we are really fighting here is our own history. Men tend to be sexist. Women tend to be sexist. Or societal construct is sexist. Nobody's fault, all good people here I'm sure with mothers and sisters and girlfriends we love dearly.

Please lets not fight too personally, saying things like "I wish people would read what's been written" could come across as an attack, I'm not sure who it's aimed at either.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

You can observe the same trend with racism. When I write, I like to cut out pictures from magazines like Vogue and Elle and make mood boards for my characters. Recently I was writing a black character, and I found that there was never more than one black model in a magazine like that, sometimes none at all, and then I realised that I had never even written a black character before. So, yeah, I've clearly absorbed certain messages regarding what is beautiful, what I should write about, and that's racist. Doesn't mean I'm racist to people, or that I consider myself a racist, but I have to accept that I have prejudices that have come from somewhere and that's a good example of these prejudices manifesting themselves. If I don't accept this, question it and work on it nothing will ever change. Do you see what I mean? It's a difficult concept to explain, the difference between having prejudices that other people are shocked by, and recognising the small, more subtle prejudices that sneak up on us through no fault of our own, but because of the society we live in. It is, however, my fault if I choose to ignore it.
 
Kean
Kean
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Blaze
Blaze
I agree with you, and I agree with Robb, I think both ideology need to be used together
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
ITA about privilege checking- very difficult and humbling.
SlayerFest
SlayerFest
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
I understand what you're saying, and honestly, I don't disagree with the bulk of it. I just wanted to make the distinction. I do find it...irksome when people generalize, regardless of what the discussion topic is, and in this case I've found that I've been misinterpreted as trying to deny there is a problem, which I'm not doing.

I just that distinction, noting that not all people of a certain class, race, standing, whatever, are alike, is important. It's not hard to point that out. It isn't onerous. Most of what you wrote had me nodding my head in agreement, but I don't think the discussion is a fair one without making such a distinction. I'm sure people here will roll their eyes at that or think it's lame, but to me it isn't. To me, it's, at the least, a courtesy, and on that isn't difficult to extend. It doesn't derail the discussion to say (as an example) "there are a lot of men who view women as ornaments" as opposed to "men view women as ornaments". To me, and I don't care if this makes me overly sensitive or whatever, that's more than semantics.

And I think if my posts on this thread are read through, it can be seen clearly that I'm not trying to derail the conversation, and that I'm very much in the "slut-shaming is bad" camp.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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I agree with you. I just think that if she had said 'all men' it would be worth picking up on, but saying that there's a tendency doesn't, to me, seem problematic enough to make a discussion about you. Men tend to be stronger than women, women tend to care more about their appearance, men tend to wear jeans. I don't think any of these statements come across as meaning *all* women or men and neither to do they carry any suggest of innateness. However nice the men on here personally are, I still think that men who have overcome the years and years of socialising are the exception to the rule. Maybe that is what we are disputing?
 
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