Smoking ban in prisons

[Moonchild]

But unless you are going to ban altogether then people have to be allowed to Smoke somewhere. Like thetopher I really don't see people smoking outside away from others as a big deal.

Here they can smoke outside, 5 metres or more from the door of open business. If the business is a bar with a line up you just go out a smokers door and back in the smokers door when you're done. Easy.

 

[nightshade]

I personally hope they don't ban smoking in beer gardens, I'm a non smoker waitress and with a complete no smoking ban at pubs the business would be very quiet. The beer garden wraps around the pub, so the only place they could go would be the car park, and I can't see people standing eating or drinking out there, so odds are I would be out of a job.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Except that smoking is bad for the people around you. It's not remotely like chewing gum. And other people can't smell chewing gum 20 feet away.

 

[Mr Trick]

I personally hope they don't ban smoking in beer gardens, I'm a non smoker waitress and with a complete no smoking ban at pubs the business would be very quiet. The beer garden wraps around the pub, so the only place they could go would be the car park, and I can't see people standing eating or drinking out there, so odds are I would be out of a job.

I find that a bit far fetched myself. There maybe a drop in costume but I can't see it trailling off altogether. I think you would be fine.

 

[nightshade]

I find that a bit far fetched myself. There maybe a drop in costume but I can't see it trailling off altogether. I think you would be fine.

given that I would say 90% of the people that go to the pub smoke, I would say there would be a large drop. It's a country pub so not a busy one anyway. They all come in and buy a drink then take it outside to sit and smoke with it.

 

[Mr Trick]

given that I would say 90% of the people that go to the pub smoke, I would say there would be a large drop. It's a country pub so not a busy one anyway. They all come in and buy a drink then take it outside to sit and smoke with it.

Still the main reason they go there is to have a drink. so I really don't see how stopping them from Smoking will put them off, it might put some of them off, but I don't think it would have that much of an effect personally.

 

[thetopher]

Second hand smoke is damaging to health not just annoying like knuckle cracking. It can be detected in outdoor air about 9-12 feet from a smoker, if there are many smokers, which there typically are in outdoor drinking/festival atmospheres it's virtually impossible to get away from , especially if you're a waitress with very little control over where you stand. Second hand smoke is dangerous, not just unpleasant, and I don't see any reason to allow it in beer gardens/patios.

Is there any scientific proof that smoking outside in the open air is bad for the people around you? As in damages their health? Tabacco smoke has to be concentrated and constanting breathed in to do actual harm- the conditions that, scientifically, have been proven to might happen indoors, buildings, houses, sealed cars- hence the ban.

I'm fine with that but not with an open air ban because somebody finds it stinky/unpleasent- which is basically what this amounts to. It's not a health issue but a social one, which is a weak basis for outlawing something.

Again, I'm not a smoker or even that sympathetic to smokers. But outlawing something- anything should be a big deal for an important reason.

 

[GwenRaiden]

it might put some of them off

Yes exactly, the smokers. Which nightshade said is a large majority of her customers. It would mean smokers would stay at home, rather than spend money at the pub, so they can enjoy both a drink and a smoke.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Is there any scientific proof that smoking outside in the open air is bad for the people around you?

Yes, there have been numerous studies by reputable universities. If you sit (at an outdoor establishment) within two feet of a person who smokes two cigarettes over the course of an hour your exposure to secondhand smoke is actually the same if you sit inside a restaurant with smokers.
 

Yes exactly, the smokers. Which nightshade said is a large majority of her customers. It would mean smokers would stay at home, rather than spend money at the pub, so they can enjoy both a drink and a smoke.

That's what bar business said here too.. but they found out they make MORE, because people dont stay as long and you have a faster turnover rate.

 

[Mr Trick]

Yes exactly, the smokers. Which nightshade said is a large majority of her customers. It would mean smokers would stay at home, rather than spend money at the pub, so they can enjoy both a drink and a smoke.

I know but when people go for a night out their not going to smoke are they? They just happen to do that because they are smokers and its part of their natural. Also, considering the Smoking ban is seen by many as a good thing then I think its a bit self-serving to want to do away with it because of business. Sometimes we have to think of the bigger picture.

 

[Fuffy]

I don't smoke (I find it disgusting), but banning it from outside patios at bars and such will just cause more problems (as others already pointed out).

 

[Moonchild]

Is there any scientific proof that smoking outside in the open air is bad for the people around you? As in damages their health? Tabacco smoke has to be concentrated and constanting breathed in to do actual harm- the conditions that, scientifically, have been proven to might happen indoors, buildings, houses, sealed cars- hence the ban.

I'm fine with that but not with an open air ban because somebody finds it stinky/unpleasent- which is basically what this amounts to. It's not a health issue but a social one, which is a weak basis for outlawing something.

Again, I'm not a smoker or even that sympathetic to smokers. But outlawing something- anything should be a big deal for an important reason.

In fact, yes it isn't commonly studied because it's kind of a newer consideration, but it has been
EHP – Secondhand Tobacco Smoke Exposure in Open and Semi-Open Settings: A Systematic Review

 

[nightshade]

I know but when people go for a night out their not going to smoke are they? They just happen to do that because they are smokers and its part of their natural. Also, considering the Smoking ban is seen by many as a good thing then I think its a bit self-serving to want to do away with it because of business. Sometimes we have to think of the bigger picture.

Except at country pubs you usually have to drive, so it's one drink or two at the most! Those that walk might have a few more but when they walk they bring the dogs so still don't stay long! It's not going to the pub for hours and having a bunch of drinks around here!

to me it seems you don't understand how country pubs operate in comparison to city pubs, where yes a smoking ban outside probably wouldn't make much difference, but here the smoking ban inside closed several pubs.

 

[thetopher]

Yes, there have been numerous studies by reputable universities. If you sit (at an outdoor establishment) within two feet of a person who smokes two cigarettes over the course of an hour your exposure to secondhand smoke is actually the same if you sit inside a restaurant with smokers.

That seems awfully vague. Where in the same restaurant with smokers? At the next table or at the other end of the building- what level of exposure of one is the equivelent of the other? How does that affect waiting staff, which seems to be the cheif reasoning since they don't have a choice whether to be in the envoronment or not?
Outdoors you can move around more freely than in abuilding, shouldn't that be a factor.

In fact, yes it isn't commonly studied because it's kind of a newer consideration, but it has been

Seems inconclusive rather than definitive, certainly not firm enough to warrent an outright ban of outdoor smoking. And it doesn't mention waiting staff because they would be in and out of the outdoor environment.
Again, inside you don't have a choice- the smokers air is your air- they are inflicting the smoke upon you. Outside the air is all around (obviously) so how can a smoking ban be warrented?

 

[GwenRaiden]

Like thetopher I really don't see people smoking outside away from others as a big deal.

considering the Smoking ban is seen by many as a good thing then I think its a bit self-serving to want to do away with it because of business. Sometimes we have to think of the bigger picture.

I don't get it, are you for or against the ban?

I don't think you understand what nightshade is saying - she doesn't want to "do away with the ban", she stated that if there were to be a ban on smoking in beer gardens (which there isn't, yet), there would be a decline in customers, because they sit outside to both smoke and drink.

 

[Mr Trick]

No I get her point. And I am for the ban.

 

[Moonchild]

That seems awfully vague. Where in the same restaurant with smokers? At the next table or at the other end of the building- what level of exposure of one is the equivelent of the other? How does that affect waiting staff, which seems to be the cheif reasoning since they don't have a choice whether to be in the envoronment or not?
Outdoors you can move around more freely than in abuilding, shouldn't that be a factor.



Seems inconclusive rather than definitive, certainly not firm enough to warrent an outright ban of outdoor smoking. And it doesn't mention waiting staff because they would be in and out of the outdoor environment.
Again, inside you don't have a choice- the smokers air is your air- they are inflicting the smoke upon you. Outside the air is all around (obviously) so how can a smoking ban be warrented?

It just seems obvious to me. If I can smell it, I'm obviously inhaling it and I don't want that. I really don't see how there's any debate as to how unhealthy that is. I say that both as a patron, a former smoker and someone who works in the service industry. Regardless, it's not legal here, so it doesn't really affect me, but I scoff at the idea of a smokers right to inflict their carcinogens on others. Here you just go outside and have a smoke and go back in and keep eating and drinking and it's certainly no big deal because it's widely accepted that other people shouldn't have to inhale your smoke even if they're on a patio.
I really have nothing more to say, because it's really clear that you feel how you feel and that is okay and I'm never going to agree with you, but fortunately it doesn't affect me unless I'm traveling through Europe/parts of Asia.

 

[GwenRaiden]

Yes, there have been numerous studies by reputable universities. If you sit (at an outdoor establishment) within two feet of a person who smokes two cigarettes over the course of an hour your exposure to secondhand smoke is actually the same if you sit inside a restaurant with smokers.

But what about when I sit outside one of my favourite pubs on the main road, where the tables and chairs are located. Buses and cars going past in the busy traffic - I'd also like a ban on vehicles passing me by and emitting pollution which is also harmful to my health.

I personally think it's ridiculous to complain about smoking when it's outdoors. Move away. And as a smoker myself, I do move away from non smoking crowds or workers because I understand how obnoxious it is to smoke near people who don't like it. Manners vs Ban, people should just be courteous about it rather than BANNING smoking OUTSIDE.

 

[thetopher]

It just seems obvious to me. If I can smell it, I'm obviously inhaling it and I don't want that.

That's not actually how it works. If I smell distant car fumes it doesn't mean I eventually going to be harmed from any kind of carsinogens that are in the air. Concentration matters in everything we inhale- the air is full of toxins in general but they're in such small doses as not to matter.
That's how most things we inhale work- pollen counts come from this, drugs, anything you care to name.

Regardless, it's not legal here, so it doesn't really affect me, but I scoff at the idea of a smokers right to inflict their carcinogens on others. Here you just go outside and have a smoke and go back in and keep eating and drinking and it's certainly no big deal because it's widely accepted that other people shouldn't have to inhale your smoke even if they're on a patio.

And this is what were are talking about. If the ban goes through there will be no 'going outside for a cigarette' because it will be banned there as well. If they ban it in one open space they will eventually ban it in another, and then another, with some sort of health justification. It will be 'go home and smoke your poison', I don't like smoking but I do want a free society thanks.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But what about when I sit outside one of my favourite pubs on the main road, where the tables and chairs are located. Buses and cars going past in the busy traffic - I'd also like a ban on vehicles passing me by and emitting pollution which is also harmful to my health.

They currently have emission limits and are trying to get more. Your car must pass (in some areas) emission tests before you are allowed to drive it.

manners vs ban

That's the whole point. People don't care. Or, for the most part, people don't care. If they were respectful enough of others and did move away it would not be an issue.. but the smokers say 'why should I move' and the non-smokers say 'why should I move'

 

That seems awfully vague.

Stanford University

Feel free to request the full report from them.. there were over 100 pages to the report, I just gave you the summary of what their tests determined.