Episode Discussion So about that whole…”Wesley X Cordy” thing…

[garfan]

Not related to Bangel, but this argument can get a little problematic. Like if we apply this to Epistein, Diddy, and other pdfs...well okay now you're 'exempt', because they technically already underwent puberty! I'd rather you use an argument related to the 'supernatural' parts of their relationship.

So you just call them statutory rapists. It's still a serious criminal offense

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Basically, some elder millennial was dumped by her rich boyfriend for a 19 year old gymnast and she decided to retaliate by calling him a pedophile and starting a moral panic, which for some reason affects our thirty year old drama about child soldiers.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Wesley was fresh from the academy... I always thought his character read as utterly gauche. More naive than Cordelia for sure.

And i dont use actor age as a guide for anything. A bunch of 'high school students' played by adult people whose ages stretch a decade... When i write him i always write him as inexperienced and greener than grass about real life - and pretty young. Maybe early 20s. In Angel he seems totally socially inept, and clearly has no relationship experience and very little 'game' (Guys will be Guise Ats 2x6) and it takes a while for him to get his 'adult' legs on.

Therefore i don't see much disparity between him and Cordelia. If anything, she knows more about real life, and even slaying than he does.. He is a cardboard cut out 007. Then he opens his mouth... He has NO clue about real life. He reada as early 20s to me. Cannot fight. All arrogance and ignorance. When i write him, i often write him as having never kissed a girl. That is my explanation for that attempted kiss that so disgusted and disappointed Cordelia.

As for his role at the school? He hasn't one. Before Columbine, (which happened during season 3 and delayed Earshot's airing) school access was far more open. It took a while and more shootings for security to really tighten up. It is still quite variable, depending on location.

I bet they could have claimed he was some publisher's rep or something.

As long as Cordelia is an adult (which we have confirmed by Giles) and she is not under his authority, there is nothing truly hinky, though the fact he is out of school and she is not rightly should give him pause. But at the time he wants to dance with her, Cordy is days away from not being a student anyway. Moot.

There are problematic sexual politics in the show. This is not that.

 

[NotASlayer]

Wesley was fresh from the academy...

I hadn't considered that, but yes, fresh out of the academy would be pretty much the equivalent of fresh out of uni, which would put him in his early 20s. Maybe five years older than Cordy at most, and probably lower than her in maturity level. Having such an utter lack of experience would be rather odd if he was 30+.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I hadn't considered that, but yes, fresh out of the academy would be pretty much the equivalent of fresh out of uni, which would put him in his early 20s. Maybe five years older than Cordy at most, and probably lower than her in maturity level. Having such an utter lack of experience would be rather odd if he was 30+.

Always thought the academy was more like Hogwarts for watchers - high school (which has A levels and takes one up to about the age one is as a beginning college sophomore). Because i always got the impression that Giles *also* went to university.

 

[NotASlayer]

Always thought the academy was more like Hogwarts for watchers - high school (which has A levels and takes one up to about the age one is as a beginning college sophomore). Because i always got the impression that Giles *also* went to university.

Giles was a bit of a rebel though, so his experiences would have been different. Wesley was Head Boy, which is definitely a public school kind of thing here (public schools are private ones; yeah, I know 😀). I guess I also assumed that the Watchers would have a further education aspect as well, post whatever they did for A Levels. "Vampires of History", "Practical Demonology", who knows.

 

[silvermoon]

I don't like it but more than anything I don't like how the show pretends it's calling out this behavior while constantly showing high schoolers in romantic situations with older partners as normal and justified. Characters only seem to comment on teenage girls hanging out with older men when something goes wrong (in season two when Joyce finds out Buffy and Angel had sex and tells Buffy that he's too old for her, Cordy and Buffy at the frat party in "Reptile Boy") or when it's supposed to be a joke (Faith and Xander both say "jailbait" in response to the Wesley/Cordy situation at different times). It doesn't usually happen in a way that's being clearly called out.

The writers keep drawing attention to Wesley and Cordy's age gap but ultimately decide it's fine and doesn't matter and it's supposed to be funny that he thinks it's such a big deal. It's a joke more than anything. People only ever comment on Angel being older than Buffy when something bad happens, as if it suddenly matters then but didn't matter before. I don't remember anyone in-universe ever commenting on the substitute teacher/mantis because of her seducing and assaulting students, just the actual murder. I don't see the point in bringing it up in Wesley's situation if it doesn't matter when other people do the same or worse without the same kind of emphasis.

As for my actual opinions on the two of them together, I would say Wesley is a creep, but since she's over 18, and because it's basically limited to some flirting, a slowdance, and a brief makeout session, he's way less of a creep than he would be if it went further than that or if it happened earlier. I don't think he's a predator, but I do think he's a loser. And he's a loser that the show holds to a higher standard than other characters, so I don't feel like I have a reason to even care.

Sorry for my voice typing illiteracy. I always thought that Cordelia was your basic sexy high school student male fantasy as seen through the eyes of the no doubt much older male writers. There is no doubt that The actress who plays Cordelia is very attractive. Because I'm an old fart her name just left my head. But there is no excuse to work out their fantasies through her which I'm pretty sure they did through Wesley. You're right that he's a total creep. There was much more to the character than that And there was some evolution with her through her relationship with Xander. But the way they dressed her was certainly a big clue. Buffy was also sexualized. Willow as the nerd barely got dressed In a sexy way until she played the vampire. Objectification of women on TV is standard.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I think of Diddy as a sexual predator, I don't know if he abused children, just numerous young men and women where there was a serious power imbalance, blackmail, lots of physical abuse, etc.
Epstein...well, the horrors regarding him are too numerous to name but it includes child trafficking and grooming on a global scale, not just the child stuff.

Diddy has also been known to traffick and abuse children. Not gonna get into that, because though it needs to be talked about, this just feels like the wrong space for that.

There is a nuanced conversation to be engaged with when it comes to many fictional relationships, not just Buffyverse ones, but many a Bangel hater just won't engage in that way. And hey, that's fine, I'm not that kind of shipper and I don't get super invested in fictional relationships one way or another...but I do like intellectual honesty and consistency and since nobody really comes up with a compelling argument as to why Angel- the literal pedo- happily engages in many romances with adult women the majority of the time then I dismiss the character assassination attacks as rather thin and inconsistent.

I watched a few episodes of Angel. Angel is very different on his show, they clearly had no idea what to with him. Agreed it feels out of character for him to be with high school Buffy, though I'm not really a fan of the guy.

I can understand where Bangel shippers come from. It's just not for me.

I mainly just thought what you said was strange and used Diddy and Epstein as other examples. Not sure about ytbers because they all come out texting 14 year olds or getting in some drama. The content quality has degraded over time too

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Giles knows best about Wesley: "You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone."

Any relationship he gets into needs training wheels.

 

[thetopher]

I watched a few episodes of Angel. Angel is very different on his show, they clearly had no idea what to with him. Agreed it feels out of character for him to be with high school Buffy, though I'm not really a fan of the guy.

I think the 1st Season of Angel was the writers trying to figure out what to say with the show, starting off as supernatural noir and then becoming something more interesting, but I would say that Angel's character did remain consistent from what we'd seen before. It helped that most of our perceptions of Angel are from Buffy's pov, he's kind of mysterious and unknowable. The only true Angel centric episodes on BtVS are 'Angel' and 'Amends', the introduction of his concept and the concept of his show/mission statement

I mainly just thought what you said was strange and used Diddy and Epstein as other examples. Not sure about ytbers because they all come out texting 14 year olds or getting in some drama.

Overall I was responding to those blinkered types of attack that come at Angel's character, i.e not very strong ones, and it helps to be blunt in those cases. Out of context it obviously lacks a kind of nuance but I'll stand by the fact that a 20 yr old dating a 17 yr old is much less wrong than that same guy with interests in a 13yr old; doesn't seem like a strange take to me.

 

[NoShip]

I'll stand by the fact that a 20 yr old dating a 17 yr old is much less wrong than that same guy with interests in a 13yr old; doesn't seem like a strange take to me.

When I was working in Georgia, they raised their Age of Consent from 14 to 18 with a twist.

If the older lover was less than 4 years older than the younger lover, the relationship & sex were legal. That law sets the right boundaries while recognizing human nature.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I came up at a time where consent ages were 12 and 14 - and age differences were not a thing. Which made forcible rape of children hard to prosecute as they were rarely believed or even not allowed to testify. Grooming was common and girl children were often blamed for seduction. And those dark ages only ended about 30 years ago. still havent in places.

It ia still legal for *children* to marry with parental consent in many places - which functionally means many girls sold or given to older men as wives with zero say. I think even some parts of the US still allow parental 'consent'.

In some cultures two minors can be married by their parents - before they understand the contracts that bind them. Even more were married off at puberty. (One or both partners)

 

[silvermoon]

Diddy has also been known to traffick and abuse children. Not gonna get into that, because though it needs to be talked about, this just feels like the wrong space for that.



I watched a few episodes of Angel. Angel is very different on his show, they clearly had no idea what to with him. Agreed it feels out of character for him to be with high school Buffy, though I'm not really a fan of the guy.

I can understand where Bangel shippers come from. It's just not for me.

I mainly just thought what you said was strange and used Diddy and Epstein as other examples. Not sure about ytbers because they all come out texting 14 year olds or getting in some drama. The content quality has degraded over time too

Most

I came up at a time where consent ages were 12 and 14 - and age differencees were not a thing. Which made forcible rape of children had to prosecute as they were rarely believed. Grooming was common and girl children were often blamed for seduction. And those dark ages only ended about 30 years ago.still havent in places.

It ia still legal for *children* to marry with parental consent in many places - which functionally means many girls sold or given to older men as wives with zero say. I think even some parts of the US still allow parental 'consent'.

I'm a 70s child And I was abused in catholic schools and by an adult male. You speak truth. There was little help for any of us abused kids. The walking wounded are out there. Unfortunately our contributions and perceptions are rarely validated except by other survivors. It's a sick and evil world and people need to speak out against abuse wherever they can.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Most

I'm a 70s child And I was abused in catholic schools and by an adult male. You speak truth. There was little help for any of us abused kids. The walking wounded are out there. Unfortunately our contributions and perceptions are rarely validated except by other survivors. It's a sick and evil world and people need to speak out against abuse wherever they can.

Me too. Mine was not priests but the shame was always on the victims. The world can be a truly nasty place and i wish it had changed more than just on the surface, but sadly i dont think it has. Finding other survivors has been very freeing. Hugs you chastely.

Sorry i misquoted/mispoke - you did not say priest. Sadly there are too many kinds of predators.

 

[silvermoon]

Me too. Mine was not priests but the shame was always on the victims. The world can be a truly nasty place and i wish it had changed more than just on the surface, but sadly i dont think it has. Finding other survivors has been very freeing. Hugs you chastely.

Hugs back safely. Yes the catholic church is a s .... show frankly. Shame on all of them forever quite frankly. Agree!

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

When I was working in Georgia, they raised their Age of Consent from 14 to 18 with a twist.

If the older lover was less than 4 years older than the younger lover, the relationship & sex were legal. That law sets the right boundaries while recognizing human nature.

I have seen kids caught up in nonsense where 16&17 turn 17&18 and are suddenly illegal. That is nuts. Laws should protect not destroy.

 

[silvermoon]

Hugs back safely. Yes the catholic church is a s .... show frankly. Shame on all of them forever quite frankly. Agree!

Amen sister

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Thinking of S3 lately, there’s been one little detail that bothers me. One little thing that bugged me and has bugged me since I watched S3.

So in the prom episode, Wesley gets all nervous and red in the face at the thought of dancing with Cordelia. Giles ushers him on (hence the wonderful “emotional maturity of a blueberry scone” line) and they dance together.

Here’s the problem. In the scene, Cordy is 17-18. We don’t know her actual age at the time, but she is 16 when the show starts during sophomore year.

I’ve looked around and the consensus on Wesley is that he was in his 30s when he arrived on the show.

So if that’s the case…what exactly was the deal here? They play up Wesley’s crush on Cordy, but she’s almost half his age, and potentially underage. Do we have any thoughts on what was going on here? Was Wesley younger than I’ve been told, was the idea that they were just buddies…? This has been seriously bothering me for awhile now.

I always assumed Wesley was in his late 20s in that season.

 

[Btvs fan]

In regards to Buffy, Angel was meant to be 27 (same age as DB). He even says it at one time.
Now he first canonically sets eyes on Buffy in the Becoming flashback when she's meant to be 15. Its obvious the inferences the show was making. Hes in a blacked out car and Buffy has a lollipop. They even make jokes in the show when she talks about her cradle robbing creature of the night boyfriend.

Lets be frank the show got away with it because SMG was older than the character of Buffy. Thats why the marketing could get away with 2 good looking people dating each other.
Now if you'd swapped her with an actress of the actual same age as say Michelle Tractenberg who was actually 16 in Season 7, I think people would've genuinely been grossed out.

Same for Wesley and Cordy. Both the actors were far older so it was gotten away with.

 

[NotASlayer]

Though in the first season(s?) Angel was being passed of as a... high school senior? Though he was turned at 27, this seemed to be a retcon once David aged past the point where he could pass, even by TV standards, as a teenager.