So, Andrew kills Jonathan...

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So my question is; why does Buffy give Andrew such a hard time about this, calling him a "murderer"? We know that Andrew was under the control/deception of The First. And when this is known, in example the case with Spike, immoral actions seem to be forgiven or at least excused. Why then, doesn't she give Spike a hard time about killing people again? Is this just another example of Spike's "get out of jail free" card?

 

[DrusillaRox]

Oh, god. Spike pisses me off. I thught this was gonna be another discussion about how awsome/ hot/ badass/ fantastic spike is, ugh. puke. But really, I agree, I for one actually LIKE Andrew. It's because he's not in the slayers circle, lets face it. Buffy can be pretty petty. Spike doesn't get held down to, well, anything! Okay, i'm done bitching about spike (yeah, well someones got to)

I think it is another example of spike's "get out of jail free" card.

Poor Andrew, the only one who actually gets given a hard time for being a murderer. I think she just doesn't like him
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Edit:
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okay, I'm prepared to be bitched at by Spike fans. Bring it on, baby XD

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

LOL well, Spike is my favorite character, but part of being a good fan is being able to critisize as well 🙂 Mostly, I'm interested in Buffy's viewpoint on this situation - why she sees Andrew as a murderer and Spike as, well, not. I'm not too disturbed about Spike killing again - after all, he was under the control of The First. Not really his fault.

 

[sk]

Well, Andrew kinda got a "get out of jail free" card to.
They never turned him in or anything after all.
It didn't took very long until they untied him and he was pretty much free to do whatever he wanted. Even though they said he was their hostage.

But the main thing I think is time.
They was already beyond calling Spike a murderer. They know he is/was, but has learned to accept it and works with him anyway.
With time they seems to accept Andrew to. But in season 7 they are still angry for all his bad deeds from the previous year.

/SK

 

[ILLYRIAN]

The enjoyable thing was Andrew always responded so well when he was called a murderer, it didn't seem like they maliciously called him a murderer, just to see what he would reply with next.
Look at the comic situations of Xander and Anya's torture of him, Dawn and Anya hitting him, Willow's smiles after she asked him a question. etc: etc:
Spike's response would have been, "So!" and that would have been boring to watch.

 

[Blondie Bear]

That, and Spike was physically under the control of the First. No free will involved. Andrew wasn't. The First was manipulating him, true, but he chose to kill Jonathan.

 

[Silum]

Spikes get out of jail free card?

Or maybe...just maybe, Spike spent the last 2 years looking after Dawn, fighting side byside with scoobies even without a soul, even after Buffy had died and he had proven himself as a guy you would want around. Also, he was never truly forgiven for his past actions.

Andrew on the other hand, had the intent to rape a woman, killed Johnathan despite "knowing it was wrong", egged Warren on as he tried to murder buffy with those orbs, and banded to be pains in her ass.

Note also that Spike was completely under the control of the first, Andrew was talked into it (and as ive just said, "knew it was wrong").

But no, this is a I hate Spike thread so i best leave.

 

[SpikesAngel]

It's not a "I hate Spike" thread and I don't really consider Joan the Vampire Slayer as a Spike hater. lol

I think nobody could blame Spike for doing this because he didn't have a free will. When he got the memories back it almost killed him. So I'm totally with Buffy for forgiving him.

But I still think Andrew deserved to be forgiven, too. True he was just manipulated and not controlled but he's not really a murderer. Not like Warren was. He really felt bad afterwards and wanted to take it back but it was just done and he couldn't change it anymore. He thought the First was Warren and he loved him. Looked up to him. He wanted to do what he told him to, just like he did when Warren was still alive. I'm not saying what he did was right. But I still don't hate him for that and I think Buffy should've seen how hard this was for him and how he regretted it.

 

[white avenger]

As far as Buffy's attitude toward Andrew as opposed to Spike, if you look more closely, you might just see more similarities than differences. Both started out as Buffy's "arch nemeses-es," both were the least respected member of their respective gang, both were thieves and murderers, and both were allowed through their actions and attitude to redeem themselves and become members of the team, though not part of the Scoobies' inner circle (actually, in this, Andrew actually was accepted more than Spike was). The greatest difference between the two is degree and length of "bad-ness." Spike was bad for a century and a half, Andrew was bad for a season. Spike became one of the good guys over the course of three seasons, Andrew only took about three episodes. Vampire and criminal mastermind parallel each other quite well if the time factor is eliminated. (But, PLEASE, GOD, let's not have a Buffy/Andrew equivalent of "Smashed." Andrew/Xander, Andrew/Dawn, or Andrew/Rona, maybe, but no Andrew/Buffy!)

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

Andrew said that he knew it wasnt really Warren, deep down, and yet he still killed Johnathan. so there was still a part of him that knew, hmm, there is something fishy here, and yet he did it any way. Granted, Andrew was a bit weak especially when it came to Warren and even in knowing it wasnt REALLY him, the First did what it does to all, played on his weaknesses. I love Andrew, but this was one thing i could not pretend he was just a naive little boy about. Buffy was right, he had to take responsibility for what he had done, if he was going to grow any from it and become a trusted ally.

 

[AgentX7k]

That, and Spike was physically under the control of the First. No free will involved. Andrew wasn't. The First was manipulating him, true, but he chose to kill Jonathan.

Exactly, the situations were completely different.

 

[Silum]

Just had a quick watch of Seeing Red.... Andrew: "Kill her. Kill Her!" Direct quote.

Andrew had a soul at this point.

End of discussion?

 

[fly on the wall]

Buffy can be pretty petty.

Wait a minute....I don't think it was pettiness that made Buffy dislike a guy who had banded against her for an entire year, nearly raped a woman, robbed a bank, planted cameras all over her home/work/hangouts/etc, covered up and framed her for a murder, sicced demons on her, and was merely talked into killing his friend.

Spike had repented for his past evils, and he was under complete control of The First, to the point that he didn't remember anything he'd done. He had earned the right to be a part of their inner circle. Meanwhile, Andrew was sticking to the Scoobies like glue to protect his own ass. I do think Buffy was a little soft on Spike though...After all, he was an out-of-control serial killer in the basement of a home which held a bunch of nearly defenseless girls (coincidentally the only hope the world had left of surviving the First's assaults). But in no way do I think she was too hard on Andrew, or that her dislike of him was petty.

 

[DrusillaRox]

Wait a minute....I don't think it was pettiness that made Buffy dislike a guy who had banded against her for an entire year, nearly raped a woman, robbed a bank, planted cameras all over her home/work/hangouts/etc, covered up and framed her for a murder, sicced demons on her, and was merely talked into killing his friend.

Are you talking about Andrew through all of that?

Anyway, Spike tried to rape Buffy herself, and still got treated better that Andrew. He was in his right mind (well, if you can consider spike to even have a "right mind" okay, my impressive spike hatred isn't the point here....is it?)

Wait a sec...how did he repent? remind me.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's not a "I hate Spike" thread and I don't really consider Joan the Vampire Slayer as a Spike hater. lol

I think nobody could blame Spike for doing this because he didn't have a free will. When he got the memories back it almost killed him. So I'm totally with Buffy for forgiving him.

But I still think Andrew deserved to be forgiven, too. True he was just manipulated and not controlled but he's not really a murderer. Not like Warren was. He really felt bad afterwards and wanted to take it back but it was just done and he couldn't change it anymore. He thought the First was Warren and he loved him. Looked up to him. He wanted to do what he told him to, just like he did when Warren was still alive. I'm not saying what he did was right. But I still don't hate him for that and I think Buffy should've seen how hard this was for him and how he regretted it.

LOL thanks SpikesAngel 🙂 You all know I'm like Spike's biggest fan around lol

My question was really more centered around my interest in what Buffy thinks about each one, Andrew and Spike. I'm just interested in why she held Andrew as a murderer, and not Spike. Sure, her feelings and affection color her judgement of Spike for sure - it just seems like a super-super double standard - even for Buffy.

I feel though, that by saying Spike was under the complete control of the First is valid, yes - but in my opinion, so was Andrew. The First was using "Warren" to manipulate Andrew into killing Jonathan. I agree with everything you said about Andrew; why can't she forgive him too?
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Edit:
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Just had a quick watch of Seeing Red.... Andrew: "Kill her. Kill Her!" Direct quote.

Andrew had a soul at this point.

End of discussion?

Again, I am really not siding with Andrew on this, you make a great point. Andrew is certainly (or was) a morally iffy character. I'm just more interested, like I said, in how differently Buffy seems to view the two (Spike and Andrew) and why this is.

 

[DrusillaRox]

The First was using "Warren" to manipulate Andrew into killing Jonathan. I agree with everything you said about Andrew; why can't she forgive him too?

I really agree with this. Although you were probably right about Buffy being biased

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Wait a sec...how did he repent? remind me.

How did Spike REPENT?! *sigh
Now that's a whole different, long thread 🙂

I didn't mean to imply Spike hating, or pro-Andrew or whatever...I appreciate your comments though, guys! I was just curious what people thought.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I think it has something to do with how well she got to know Spike and how annoying Andrew was/is.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I really agree with this. Although you were probably right about Buffy being biased

Of course Buffy is biased regarding Spike. But, I don't think biased enough to have it effect her feelings for Andrew's actions.

 

[fly on the wall]

Are you talking about Andrew through all of that?

Anyway, Spike tried to rape Buffy herself, and still got treated better that Andrew. He was in his right mind (well, if you can consider spike to even have a "right mind" okay, my impressive spike hatred isn't the point here....is it?)

Wait a sec...how did he repent? remind me.

Yes, I was talking about Andrew through all of that. He either did those things, didn't stop those things, or helped in doing those things.

He repented for two entire seasons. Fighting alongside Buffy and her friends. Looking after Dawn. Looking out for Buffy on patrol.
And yes, he tried to rape her, but he repented for that heavily, by getting a soul.
I'm not a marcher in the "Spike can do no wrong!" parade, by any means. But I can still see he's tried to right some of his wrongs.

Edit: I don't think it's necessarily right that Buffy didn't forgive Andrew. But I don't think it's petty of her not to. She had every right to hold his wrongs against him. At least Spike had been trying to do good since Season Five. Half a season of clinging to the Scoobies so you don't get your head mowed off by an ubervamp just doesn't cut it, IMO.