So seriously, I wasn't hitting on you!

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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I get the running theme, but I can't remember all the moments.

Shall we list the moments where they play with the 'Angel is kinda gay' idea?

Here's on to start:

Lonely Hearts

(Angel standing by the bar. A guy is walking away from him shaking his head)
Angel: “No seriously, I wasn’t hitting on you!”
 
Angel IS kinda gay...in my dreams...

Let's not forget the very good fashion sense! Even Cordelia said so...
 
Here's more:

Rm w/a Vu:
Cordelia: "Your shower is in here, right? You have mousse? – Of course you do."
Disharmony:
Cordelia: "Oh, my god. These are gorgeous! You have the most amazing taste! You have, like - a gay man's taste, and that's saying something."
Power Play:
Spike: "'Cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one... "
 
S
StuckinTraffic
I love that line in Power Play....it's one of my favorites!
A guy using mousse isn't really evidence of homosexuality...it's a styling product just like gel...and it's obvious from glancing at his hair that he uses product...as did every other guy on the show except maybe Doyle.
 
W
willow23
and Gunn.
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Agreed. But the Ange/(us)/Spike subtext from Buffy season 2 on IS evidence. :-)
Quite possibly. Afterall, he did turn down Cordelia's advances in BTVS...I don't care if he was in love with Buffy, any guy who'd turn down Cordelia is obviously either blind or gay.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
OH you're talking about Angel...duh.
Quite possibly. Afterall, he did turn down Cordelia's advances in BTVS...I don't care if he was in love with Buffy, any guy who'd turn down Cordelia is obviously either blind or gay.

Once again, I concur.
 
Okay, so maybe I'm sleep deprived, but am I the only person who never saw the Angel gay references? Okay I can see that there were quite a few with Xander, Spike and Andrew along with plenty of others, but Angel? I always thought he was to straight laced and boring for that. Angelus on the other hand.......

Also a disclaimer - I have not seen all of/most of AtS so maybe I am just missing something.
 
Y
yellowcrayon
I'm with you, and I've seen all of AtS. ;)
I think there were a few jokes about it, but I don't see it as the writers playing with the idea. (Not like with Lindsey!) I mean, everyone got the occasional "gay" joke thrown their way, but that's just cause Joss is a tad obsessed.

However, I do think the Spangel thing is interesting. It seems that they are hinting at the idea that without a soul/concience/social conformity/sexual restraint a person is more likely to experiment. Or, even further, that everyone is a little bit gay and it's these factors (minus perhaps concience in Angel's case) that lead to the repression.

Then again, Angelus did a lot of things (sexually) that Angel would never do, so.... I don't see him as being kinda gay.
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
Really well said, I swear your posts get better and better every day!
Okay, I have some.

First, in the episode where Kate's father dies (don't remember which one it was) him and Kate talk about Angel, specifically if they are involved. When Kate says no, at some point her father asks something along the lines of 'Is he west hollywood', which is slang for gay, as far as I know.

And in 'Expecting', when Cordy gets picked up by her friends, Angel, Wesley and Cordy's friends talk and somehow these friends get the impression that both Angel and Wesley are gay, ending with one of the friends saying 'the good ones are always gay'.

Well, and then we have of course Spike's 'I understand, I have a nephew who is gay' 😛
 
and arent there all those innuendos with lindsey? Like in season 5 when he says "i want you, Lindsey" and says something about how he should rephrase that. and there was stuff much earlier with Lindsey as well that icant think of and see here is my uber lack of help on this thread on display lol.
 
and arent there all those innuendos with lindsey? Like in season 5 when he says "i want you, Lindsey" and says something about how he should rephrase that. and there was stuff much earlier with Lindsey as well that icant think of and see here is my uber lack of help on this thread on display lol.

Oh, hell yes. There's a huge difference between what they were doing with Lindsey and with Angel. Angel's in the funny jokes column - there are jokes made, but it's quite clear that theres no real foundation to them. Like, for instance, Doyle. He's uber-straight, and because of that they can make the jokes like "Maybe a little attracted". Lindsey's more in the Willow/Early Xander column, where it seems that they were maybe trying to hint at something deeper.
 
Ok, maybe not as overt, but how about the whole running joke with Angel loving Barry Manilow? I'd say that's a check in the "Angel kinda gay" column. Definately part of his sensitive side.

Really though, I never viewed Angel as ever being anything but a straight man-pire. I think the jokes were simply that-jokes. They weren't to insinuate that he was gay IMO. I agree with 5X5's notion that because Angel (and Doyle in that example) are straight, they can joke about it with no hard feelings.
 
I never got the Lindsey = gay stuff. Sorry.

Angel? Yeah. Totally. It comes out a lot more when he's Angelus, but I totally get the bisexual vibe from all of the vampires on Buffy, especially the older vampires. I don't even think it's really the same as being a bisexual human, though. I think it's more a case of vampires having no restraint. They fall outside the bounds of society and are certainly more slaves to their animalistic urges than humans are, and so very primal urges like hunger, sex, aggression, etc. are very much on the forefront of their minds. I think that once you've unlived for 100 plus years and done and seen pretty much everything, sexual taboos sort of fall by the wayside. I mean, what's a little homosexual sex after you've slaughtered your first town, you know? Basically, I think vamps have a Faith-like "want, take, have" attitude that applies to anything from sex to eating people to stealing to... well, anything. I mean, it is *strongly* implied that all of the Fanged Four slept together at various points and also that raping victims was/is commonplace. I think vamps' sexual urges are as unbridled as anything else about them. With that being my view of vamps on the show, then, I sort of take it for granted that Angel has been around just about any sort of block that you can imagine. The Spike/Angel(us) subtext just sort of serves as additional (and fun!) fodder.


Oh... and I thought of another scene. When he's about to fight Spanky, he takes down a paddle and says, "I've got no problem spanking men." Bahaha. That was a funny scene.


As far as the fashion stuff goes, well... he IS from the 18th century. Has there ever been a more gender bending time period (aside from maybe the 80s)? He grew up in a time when men liked to look pretty. They wore makeup, wigs, high heels, stockings, frilly shirts, etc. What can I say? I guess some of that stuck. Can you really expect an 18th century man to leave his hair natural?
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great points :)
R
randiann
How about the Renaissance in Italy? That was a way more gender bending "gay is more socially acceptable time" than the 18th century!
I never got the Lindsey = gay stuff. Sorry.

Have you looked? Next time you see a Lindsey ep, keep it in mind - at first it's just plain funny, but it actually starts to make sense after a while. Seriously, take You're Welcome - Angel walks in, Lindsey's dagger grows, he starts taking off his clothes (a rational reason for which I still haven't found!) and they grapple.

*ahem* Anyway, this is all completely beside the point.

Angel? Yeah. Totally. It comes out a lot more when he's Angelus, but I totally get the bisexual vibe from all of the vampires on Buffy, especially the older vampires. I don't even think it's really the same as being a bisexual human, though. I think it's more a case of vampires having no restraint. They fall outside the bounds of society and are certainly more slaves to their animalistic urges than humans are, and so very primal urges like hunger, sex, aggression, etc. are very much on the forefront of their minds. I think that once you've unlived for 100 plus years and done and seen pretty much everything, sexual taboos sort of fall by the wayside. I mean, what's a little homosexual sex after you've slaughtered your first town, you know? Basically, I think vamps have a Faith-like "want, take, have" attitude that applies to anything from sex to eating people to stealing to... well, anything. I mean, it is *strongly* implied that all of the Fanged Four slept together at various points and also that raping victims was/is commonplace. I think vamps' sexual urges are as unbridled as anything else about them. With that being my view of vamps on the show, then, I sort of take it for granted that Angel has been around just about any sort of block that you can imagine. The Spike/Angel(us) subtext just sort of serves as additional (and fun!) fodder.


Oh... and I thought of another scene. When he's about to fight Spanky, he takes down a paddle and says, "I've got no problem spanking men." Bahaha. That was a funny scene.


As far as the fashion stuff goes, well... he IS from the 18th century. Has there ever been a more gender bending time period (aside from maybe the 80s)? He grew up in a time when men liked to look pretty. They wore makeup, wigs, high heels, stockings, frilly shirts, etc. What can I say? I guess some of that stuck. Can you really expect an 18th century man to leave his hair natural?

I agree with the rest. But I see Angelus as a different person to Angel, and a vampire's mindset to be so far removed from a human's that I would keep them both in completely seperate boxes. Angelus - probably did it with anything that was closest. Angel though, not so much.
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
*giggles* his dagger grows!
I'll give the Lindsey stuff a closer examination some time.

As far as Angelus goes, I don't see Angel and Angelus as entirely separate people. Angel remembers the things that he did as Angelus. His soul carries that guilt. That's part of the curse: Angel has the soul of a man, but he's not a man. He's still a vampire. He's still Angelus. He's still evil. But he's *also* good. The torture of the curse is that he still craves blood, but that he hates himself for craving it. His soul makes him feel guilty not just for the things he did in the past, but also for the drives and urges that never leave him. Imagine how miserable you would feel if every time you passed a child on the street, you saw yourself reaching out, plucking that child up to your chest, sinking your teeth into its flesh, drinking the life out of it, dropping its limp body to the ground, and then stepping on or over the wasted carcass -- and enjoying the look on the helpless parent's face, to boot. It would be like living in two realities. In one, Angel has the soul of the average human, a soul that considers some things unthinkable and unpardonable and horrible. On the other, he has the body and the brain and the memories of a vampire, a creature who is burdened by not such restraint. His vampiric side is constantly in conflict with his soul. That conflict is what makes Angel such a fascinating character. Angel is so straight laced and repressed (in every possible way) because he is constantly struggling to stamp down his evil, vampiric urges and to do the opposite of what he wants to do. That's why he saves people rather than eating them. It is precisely because Angelus and Angel are NOT two totally separate beings that Angel suffers. At least, that's my opinion of the way that the soul works for Angel.

So, while I agree that Angel would never in a million years do even a tenth of the things that Angelus would do, I disagree that they are so separate that those drives aren't even there. I think Angel wouldn't do even a tenth of the things that Angelus would do because those drives *are* there and because he desperately wants them not to be. The cruelest twist to the curse, of course, is that if he feels that one moment of peace that he would feel if those drives did ever cease, they would be back in full force and with no soul to stop them. So not only is angel is constant conflict over what he has done and what he wants to do, he's also in constant conflict over what he MIGHT do in the future. Honestly, I'm amazed that he's not sitting in a corner and wetting himself. That he has any shred of sanity at all, let alone that he fights evil and does so much good, is a testament to the strength of his character.

Basically, with this as my view of Angel, I think Angel still wants to have sex with men (or man-pires) ever bit as much as Angelus does (which, granted, is way less than he wants to kill, maim, torture, and drink the blood of the innocent). I just think he avoids the behavior because it's part of his vampiric nature. Thanks largely to his coping strategy of disassociation (compartmentalizing "Angelus" and "Angel"), he has become pretty good at keeping a lid on anything he considers vampiric. It's when both the vampiric side and the souled side want something (like, say, Buffy) that Angel *really* gets into trouble.
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
I love reading your posts... And you've just convinced me to LIKE Angel... Maybe you should be a lawyer!
I'll give the Lindsey stuff a closer examination some time.

As far as Angelus goes, I don't see Angel and Angelus as entirely separate people. Angel remembers the things that he did as Angelus. His soul carries that guilt. That's part of the curse: Angel has the soul of a man, but he's not a man. He's still a vampire. He's still Angelus. He's still evil. But he's *also* good. The torture of the curse is that he still craves blood, but that he hates himself for craving it. His soul makes him feel guilty not just for the things he did in the past, but also for the drives and urges that never leave him. Imagine how miserable you would feel if every time you passed a child on the street, you saw yourself reaching out, plucking that child up to your chest, sinking your teeth into its flesh, drinking the life out of it, dropping its limp body to the ground, and then stepping on or over the wasted carcass -- and enjoying the look on the helpless parent's face, to boot. It would be like living in two realities. In one, Angel has the soul of the average human, a soul that considers some things unthinkable and unpardonable and horrible. On the other, he has the body and the brain and the memories of a vampire, a creature who is burdened by not such restraint. His vampiric side is constantly in conflict with his soul. That conflict is what makes Angel such a fascinating character. Angel is so straight laced and repressed (in every possible way) because he is constantly struggling to stamp down his evil, vampiric urges and to do the opposite of what he wants to do. That's why he saves people rather than eating them. It is precisely because Angelus and Angel are NOT two totally separate beings that Angel suffers. At least, that's my opinion of the way that the soul works for Angel.

So, while I agree that Angel would never in a million years do even a tenth of the things that Angelus would do, I disagree that they are so separate that those drives aren't even there. I think Angel wouldn't do even a tenth of the things that Angelus would do because those drives *are* there and because he desperately wants them not to be. The cruelest twist to the curse, of course, is that if he feels that one moment of peace that he would feel if those drives did ever cease, they would be back in full force and with no soul to stop them. So not only is angel is constant conflict over what he has done and what he wants to do, he's also in constant conflict over what he MIGHT do in the future. Honestly, I'm amazed that he's not sitting in a corner and wetting himself. That he has any shred of sanity at all, let alone that he fights evil and does so much good, is a testament to the strength of his character.

Basically, with this as my view of Angel, I think Angel still wants to have sex with men (or man-pires) ever bit as much as Angelus does (which, granted, is way less than he wants to kill, maim, torture, and drink the blood of the innocent). I just think he avoids the behavior because it's part of his vampiric nature. Thanks largely to his coping strategy of disassociation (compartmentalizing "Angelus" and "Angel"), he has become pretty good at keeping a lid on anything he considers vampiric. It's when both the vampiric side and the souled side want something (like, say, Buffy) that Angel *really* gets into trouble.

I see what you mean, but I do feel that some of the urges Angelus felt are lessened by the presence of the soul. In itself, the guilt taints any feeling of animal satisfaction that Angel would get - he feels the urge to drink the blood just as strongly, but the urge to actually kill and torture in a sadistic fashion? I think it is diminished. When Angel was at his absolute lowest, he still had to let Darla and Drusilla kill the lawyers. He didn't feel the need to do it himself - something that Angelus would have revelled in.

Now, I think the sexual debauchary that he indulged in as Angelus was very similar. It went beyond how he was as Liam, it was about base satisfaction - and usually about causing pain. As a vampire, his sex was genderless. For one thing, I don't think Angel could possibly achieve that satisfaction in the same way, and I don't believe the thought of it would be attractive to him either. Yes, Angel is still a vampire, but I don't think he is attracted to guys. I don't think Angelus was either.
 
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