So What's all this bad shade Xander's been getting lately?

Moptop

Moptop

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This have been a lot of news bits about Xander being the worst villan of any of the charactors on BTVS. What gives?
 
My hypothesis is that Xander really doesn't have a Shipper fanbase, he isn't one of the "Iconic" characters, and his best work is in Season 1-3, which are the Seasons Spuffy and Tillows aren't watching. What's more, he's the most Generation X character, and his virtues are no longer appreciated, and his vices are no longer tolerated.
 
Xander is the friend that calls Buffy out when she’s wrong and even if he’s right it’s enough to get any character hated. I will grant that he’s not always nice about it, he does have anger issues. He also is against both of Buffy’s vampire “forbidden love” ships or vampires for that matter. Add this to the fact that he’s the regular guy who isn’t necessarily charismatic unfortunately people aren’t going to like him.
 
One problem Xander has is he isn't as pretty as Spike, who far better fits the description of being the worst villain of the characters, given his stalking and unrelenting abuse of Buffy over the last three seasons. Add to this what's said above and the fact that Joss said he was a stand in for Joss and the character is doomed to get a lot of unjustified hatred. Yes, Xander has problems, but he is not the worst of the characters. He is also the friend who, however he might irritate you and drive you up the wall at times, will always be there when you need him.
 
P.S. His best moment in the latter seasons is the Yellow Crayon speech. (I would say the entire series, but standing up to Angelus is not something I feel I can argue against) Tillow shippers HATED that scene when it first broadcast. I assume they still do. Spuffies probably don't watch late season 6, for reasons.
 
AlphaFoxtrot said:
P.S. His best moment in the latter seasons is the Yellow Crayon speech. (I would say the entire series, but standing up to Angelus is not something I feel I can argue against) Tillow shippers HATED that scene when it first broadcast. I assume they still do. Spuffies probably don't watch late season 6, for reasons.
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I agree. That scene was both heartbreaking and beautiful. See also the speech he gives to Dawn in s7.
Showing us that Xander may not have superpowers, but he's still a hero in his own right.

I think his character gets some unnecessary hate. Is that down to the JW/Xander comparison solely? Perhaps. But it's unfair to his character.
 
I think people find Xander more creepy and inappropriate now than perhaps original audiences did (judging by reactions I’ve watched)

There is less tolerance for his behavior toward Buffy (like trying to peek at her changing in s1), his crush on her even after she has said no and how that some times makes him act. A mixture of jealous possessiveness mingled with petty meanness. (Then again, as mentioned by others. if he was hotter this would probably be overlooked. Perhaps we are just getting more vain.)

Sometimes he may be too harshly judged, I think… but then perhaps not. I don’t know. He is a flawed character, but I think one can often understand where he is coming from. But I dont think his kind of humor lands as well now. Or at least it dosen’t outweigh the bad.

Also, I think feelings for the actor colors peoples thoughts on the character. Nick Brendon got away with a lot of weird behavior (hug therapy with fans…) because he was considered harmless and lovable via Xander.

As the good will for Brendon expired, I think the dislike for him came to influence feelings on Xander.
 
When I see shows and movies of previous generations I take both the times and the context (too many these days don't take either). Sometimes I laugh at (not to be confused with "laugh with"), but I can't recall it ever offending me (though I do vaguely recall at least once I was glad to be born a generation or so later if whatever I saw was no big deal).

Wait, there was one country song that really rubbed me the wrong way (I was 13 when I heard it on the car radio), but it also bothered my grandmother and the song was, I think, after her time (that is she was a mother raising kids when it came out).
 
My short take is Cohort Replacement. A term from Demographics meaning the people who watched BTVS in the 90s and 00s are not watching anymore and the new viewers have very different perspectives about what is and isn't acceptable.

Unfortunately for Xander, he has gone from the great but immature and kinda selfish friend to the scummy "Nice Guy" who the younger generations don't tolerate anymore.
 
Taake said:
I think people find Xander more creepy and inappropriate now than perhaps original audiences did (judging by reactions I’ve watched)

There is less tolerance for his behavior toward Buffy (like trying to peek at her changing in s1), his crush on her even after she has said no and how that some times makes him act. A mixture of jealous possessiveness mingled with petty meanness. (Then again, as mentioned by others. if he was hotter this would probably be overlooked. Perhaps we are just getting more vain.)

Sometimes he may be too harshly judged, I think… but then perhaps not. I don’t know. He is a flawed character, but I think one can often understand where he is coming from. But I dont think his kind of humor lands as well now. Or at least it dosen’t outweigh the bad.

Also, I think feelings for the actor colors peoples thoughts on the character. Nick Brendon got away with a lot of weird behavior (hug therapy with fans…) because he was considered harmless and lovable via Xander.

As the good will for Brendon expired, I think the dislike for him came to influence feelings on Xander.
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I was viewing when it aired and its fair to say Xander was seen as Joss self insert (he's since said Buffy was his insert as what he'd to be like as a girl) and as Joss revelations came out the hostility to the Xander character increased. Plus on rewatch he really does come across as a nasty piece of work. Now that probably wasn't what the writers were going for but its how he comes across. Literally the very first scene he says to Buffy is "can I have you" and she smiles and laughs like its funny but what she really should be doing is going "What!!" And thinking this guy is weird.

I should mention how the writers viewed him. During S4 Jane Espenson said was fun to humiliate and the writers really just saw him as comic relief. She actually got a bit of flak for that (proving your point) and so next season they essentially redid The Zeppo character development in The Replacement ie he realises he's cool without powers.
But after that to be frank storywise after Season 3 (when they basically pressed the reset on him) they had very little for him. You could've killed him off and it wouldn't have made a difference to the future seasons. The show had a huge cast bloat problem which is funny considering the (false) reputation Joss had for killing characters.

Joss actually wanted to kill him off in Dirty Girls and have him as The First but was persuaded not to by the other writers hence just losing his eye.
I think that may have been as much down to viewing Nick Brendon being unable to be sober enough for the part as much as anything (it's why Tom Lenk Andrew took over a large part of his role in S7)
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NoShip said:
My short take is Cohort Replacement. A term from Demographics meaning the people who watched BTVS in the 90s and 00s are not watching anymore and the new viewers have very different perspectives about what is and isn't acceptable.

Unfortunately for Xander, he has gone from the great but immature and kinda selfish friend to the scummy "Nice Guy" who the younger generations don't tolerate anymore.
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Even back when watching it people thought it was creepy that Xander was pleased when he thought a 14yr old girl was into him and outraged when he found out she was not.

People thought the whole Xander/Dawn relationship in the comics was creepy at the time which given MT revelation of the don't leave her alone with Joss rule made it worse.
 
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I find it interesting that it is Xander's behaviour towards Buffy that is a common cause of condemnation, even though Spike's obsession with Buffy and behaviour towards her is orders of magnitude worse.
 
T
thrasherpix
Also insulting Cordelia, but not Willow ("skanky ho") or Buffy ("vapid whore") for doing worse, and, of course, not Cordelia insulting Xander
Btvs fan said:
I was viewing when it aired and its fair to say Xander was seen as Joss self insert (he's since said Buffy was his insert as what he'd to be like as a girl) and as Joss revelations came out the hostility to the Xander character increased. Plus on rewatch he really does come across as a nasty piece of work. Now that probably wasn't what the writers were going for but its how he comes across. Literally the very first scene he says to Buffy is "can I have you" and she smiles and laughs like its funny but what she really should be doing is going "What!!" And thinking this guy is weird.

I should mention how the writers viewed him. During S4 Jane Espenson said was fun to humiliate and the writers really just saw him as comic relief. She actually got a bit of flak for that (proving your point) and so next season they essentially redid The Zeppo character development in The Replacement ie he realises he's cool without powers.
But after that to be frank storywise after Season 3 (when they basically pressed the reset You
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thrasherpix said:
Wait, there was one country song that really rubbed me the wrong way (I was 13 when I heard it on the car radio), but it also bothered my grandmother and the song was, I think, after her time (that is she was a mother raising kids when it came out).
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So what was that song that was so irritating? Should we all start guessing what it might be?

I'll bet I know which one it was!!!
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Btvs fan said:
You could've killed him off and it wouldn't have made a difference to the future seasons.
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I strongly disagree with this. I think his character added a lot to the show. Yes he had is good and bad points, he was "flawed" as some might say, but then again, aren't we all flawed in some way or another. That's what helps make us individuals. Granted, some stranger than others, but still individuals.
 
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Moptop said:
So what was that song that was so irritating? Should we all start guessing what it might be?

I'll bet I know which one it was!!!
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Coward of the County by Kenny Rogers. It trivialized a gang rape and made it all about the attack on the mahood of the "coward" which a beating could make up for. It didn't help that his wife or love gangraped had the same first name as me.

When it played on the radio, my grandmother said guns for 4-legged varmints also work on 2-legged ones. She also did not care for the song. (I can't recall which of us spoke first about not liking the song.)

Still, I didn't fantasize about shooting the radio. It took Achy Breaky Heart to inspire that level of irritation. (To be fair it's only because they played it a minimum of once per hour. I don't think any song is good enough to survive that level of overuse.)


Not that I thought it should be "cancelled." If I were going to do that then I'd focus my efforts to instead be against the sordid and outright corrupt practices that are all too common rather than some celebrity over a tweet from 10 years earlier, and of course that would not be tolerated by tech companies (especially when it alienates advertisers).

And I only mentioned it as I remembered it while I typed out my response and threw it in without thinking about it.
 
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Re: Dawn & Xander; Rumination; Xander doesn't think Dawn has a crush on him after years of interacting with her, she has a crush on Xander because the monks thought it would strengthen the bonds between them. It's the ultimate informed attribute. To him, it's a fact, like the Buffy-bot's ramblings.

Re: Xander is worst than Spike; He he. Say what you will about the Sophists, they don't often die from hunger.
 
Moptop said:
So what was that song that was so irritating? Should we all start guessing what it might be?

I'll bet I know which one it was!!!
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I strongly disagree with this. I think his character added a lot to the show. Yes he had is good and bad points, he was "flawed" as some might say, but then again, aren't we all flawed in some way or another. That's what helps make us individuals. Granted, some stranger than others, but still individuals.
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I'm talking from a oou writing/story and plot perspective. Not on whether he was flawed or not as a character, merely that character brought nothing starting from S4 onwards and he was just there to help pay for Nick Brendons booze bill . Apparently there was some indecision by Joss on whetheror not to make him the gay character but he decided to give that to Willow instead.
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AlphaFoxtrot said:
Re: Dawn & Xander; Rumination; Xander doesn't think Dawn has a crush on him after years of interacting with her, she has a crush on Xander because the monks thought it would strengthen the bonds between them. It's the ultimate informed attribute. To him, it's a fact, like the Buffy-bot's ramblings.

Re: Xander is worst than Spike; He he. Say what you will about the Sophists, they don't often die from hunger.
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But she doesn't have a crush on him, he only thinks she does and he gets really upset that a 14yr old isn't into him and we the audience are supposed to think its funny and cute.
 
Btvs fan said:
I'm talking from a oou writing/story and plot perspective. Not on whether he was flawed or not as a character, merely that character brought nothing starting from S4 onwards and he was just there to help pay for Nick Brendons booze bill . Apparently there was some indecision by Joss on whetheror not to make him the gay character but he decided to give that to Willow instead.
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But she doesn't have a crush on him, he only thinks she does and he gets really upset that a 14yr old isn't into him and we the audience are supposed to think its funny and cute.
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She HAD a crush on him and had moved on. It's the moving on that's a little upsetting to him. What had he done to deserve that?
 
I also don’t think it is so bad that he was flattered that Dawn had a crush on him, it wasnt like he was interested, he just got to feel special and chosen for a moment.

So when she passed her torch onto Spike, of course it would bother him a bit. But it isn’t like he was genuinely upset at it.
 
Checking back on Blood Ties, what Xander seems to appreciate going by what he says is that a multi-thousand year old powerful energy being has a crush on him. The Key, not Dawn.
 
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