So What's all this bad shade Xander's been getting lately?

[thetopher]

Another factor seems to be the every little reaction Xander has is over-analysed and viewed in the most negative light possible. These same fans don't do it with any other character, just the only straight white male character with no super-powers/special knowledge.

 

[KaitKat]

Another factor seems to be the every little reaction Xander has is over-analysed and viewed in the most negative light possible. These same fans don't do it with any other character, just the only straight white male character with no super-powers/special knowledge.

I remember people saying Xander was a pedo (can we say that on here?) because of the dream sequence that featured potentials in season seven. It was determined that Xander was dreaming about minors and will actively pursue them meanwhile Kennedy obviously wasn’t a minor…yada yada yada.

 

[Moptop]

Still, I didn't fantasize about shooting the radio. It took Achy Breaky Heart to inspire that level of irritation.

Well that was my first guess! I wanted to puke everything my band had to do that song. I thought it was the most childish nursery rhyme song they could have ever put out on the radio, but because of that it ended up being the top selling songs in country music so far.

Coward of the County was just another "tell a story" songs. It was just okay for me. Luckily I never had to sing that one.

Post automatically merged: Jan 11, 2025

she has a crush on Xander because the monks thought it would strengthen the bonds between them.

Now there is something that I missed! That never crossed my mind. Is there a reference to that somewhere in the show that I missed?🙄

 

[garfan]

Now there is something that I missed! That never crossed my mind. Is there a reference to that somewhere in the show that I missed?🙄

it's really not but if you look at Dawn's relationships with the Scoobies, her personality seems very much tailored.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Once you get to the comics, Xander and Dawn are an item. It seems correct enough by that time.

 

[thetopher]

I remember people saying Xander was a pedo (can we say that on here?) because of the dream sequence that featured potentials in season seven. It was determined that Xander was dreaming about minors and will actively pursue them meanwhile Kennedy obviously wasn’t a minor…yada yada yada.

Exactly! His horny dreams are picked over for 'proof' that he's the actual worst. I do remember that one of the two girls Xander was dreaming about was played by Rachel Bilson, who was 22 at the time, so I assume she was playing one of the older Potentials, like Kennedy

And generally speaking there is nobody out there who can control their dreams; doesn't happen. So we probably shouldn't castigate characters for things/thoughts they cannot control.
Especially since that dream, in contrast to the reality he wakes up to, is meant to make Xander the butt of the joke and kinda pathetic. As he so often written by the writing staff.

 

[KaitKat]

Exactly! His horny dreams are picked over for 'proof' that he's the actual worst. I do remember that one of the two girls Xander was dreaming about was played by Rachel Bilson, who was 22 at the time, so I assume she was playing one of the older Potentials, like Kennedy

And generally speaking there is nobody out there who can control their dreams; doesn't happen. So we probably shouldn't castigate characters for things/thoughts they cannot control.
Especially since that dream, in contrast to the reality he wakes up to, is meant to make Xander the butt of the joke and kinda pathetic. As he so often written by the writing staff.

I always thought it was a joke about the fantasy of living with all these pretty girls vs reality (the toilet’s clogged and you need to fix it) but it just fell flat like with most things that season. I just find it annoying that they decide that Kennedy is 19 and Xander was perving on minors. They are just people that made up their minds that they already hate him so are actively looking for anything to validate that he’s actually worse than any villain Buffy has ever faced.

Xander has actual flaws like anger issues and a certain type of immaturity and inability to face his mess ups head on from time to time. It’s so much more interesting to talk about those and his actual arc about subtlety growing into an adult than making up reasons to hate him.

 

[Bop]

I always thought it was a joke about the fantasy of living with all these pretty girls vs reality (the toilet’s clogged and you need to fix it) but it just fell flat like with most things that season. I just find it annoying that they decide that Kennedy is 19 and Xander was perving on minors. They are just people that made up their minds that they already hate him so are actively looking for anything to validate that he’s actually worse than any villain Buffy has ever faced.

Xander has actual flaws like anger issues and a certain type of immaturity and inability to face his mess ups head on from time to time. It’s so much more interesting to talk about those and his actual arc about subtlety growing into an adult than making up reasons to hate him.

Yeah but Kennedy says she's the oldest and she thinks she's too old to be called as a slayer so if she's 19 the rest are probably 15/16/17/18. The writers probably only clarified that Kennedy is 19 because Willow dates her.

 

[thrasherpix]

Xander was surprisingly open-minded about Spuffy in season 5. More so than Tara.

And in season 7 he's about the only one to back Buffy (after his protest is noted), and was the one to come up with the "trigger theory" for Spike.

Not only do people grasp at straws (or even make stuff up) to hate on him, they forget things like this.

That, and all the times Xander saved Buffy and others (even helping with an afflicted Angel in season 3 despite his dislike towards him).

 

[NotASlayer]

The show had a huge cast bloat problem which is funny considering the (false) reputation Joss had for killing characters.

This might be better described as being a justified reputation for Joss killing women off.

Consider. Across Buffy and Angel the major female characters are Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Joyce, Dawn, Anya, Fred and Tara. Five out of eight were killed.

Male characters are Xander, Giles, Oz, Riley, Gunn, Wesley, Angel and Spike. Wesley is the only one to have died and stayed dead by the end. That is one out of eight killed.

 

[thetopher]

I think there's a bias in Joss where he considers killing off a female character to be more of an 'emotional gut-punch' to the audience, bonus points if the female character is a helpless victim.
Jenny Calendar was helpless, Doyle died heroically. Fred's painful dead took an entire episode so as to motivate the true-blue heroes, Wesley's tragic end was one scene, done and dusted. Tara and Joyce had shock deaths that were used to explore grief and vengeance. Cordelia's sacrifice was 1) Not even supposed to happen and 2) was there to get 'her man' back on track, so its not typical.
And although its true that Anya also died heroically in battle, but it wasn't really dwelled upon, whereas Spike's heroic sacrifice was epic and emotional scene is front and centre for that big hero moment payoff.

So there is something to that theory; Angel being sacrificed at the end of S2 is probably the only genuine 'fem-pain' moment where a male character's tragic death is used to dramatically influence a female character's emotional state. The reverse is far more common.

So basically Joss the feminist still thinks male characters should- in general- die in battle and the deaths of female characters- whom the audience has more protective feelings for- can be killed off for shock value.

Maybe there is something to this whole unconscious bias thing after all.

 

[Btvs fan]

This might be better described as being a justified reputation for Joss killing women off.

Consider. Across Buffy and Angel the major female characters are Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Joyce, Dawn, Anya, Fred and Tara. Five out of eight were killed.

Male characters are Xander, Giles, Oz, Riley, Gunn, Wesley, Angel and Spike. Wesley is the only one to have died and stayed dead by the end. That is one out of eight killed.

I'd say he did kill characters but then brought them back to life.

You missed out Doyle though that was due to external reasons.

Joyce wasn't a regular and Buffy was brought back. It seems Anya was killed as much a F U to Emma Caulfield as much as anything.
Fred was supposedly going to come back sharing the body with Illyria which is what he did in the comics

 

[NotASlayer]

I'd say he did kill characters but then brought them back to life.

You missed out Doyle though that was due to external reasons.

Joyce wasn't a regular and Buffy was brought back. It seems Anya was killed as much a F U to Emma Caulfield as much as anything.
Fred was supposedly going to come back sharing the body with Illyria which is what he did in the comics

Doyle was not so much missed as I only picked characters who were in dozens of episodes, not those who were only in a few. If we have Doyle, then there are some others:

Doyle, male, dead
Harmony, female, alive
Jenny, female, dead
Robin, male, alive
Andrew, male, alive

I didn't pay any attention to the comics, just where everyone was when the show was over.

Those who were brought back during the run:

Spike, male
Angel, male
Buffy, female

 

[NoShip]

Then again, as mentioned by others. if he was hotter this would probably be overlooked.

I think you nailed it.

Compare what Xander says and does with what Spike says and does. Spike is excused and Xander is condemned. Spike is very popular and Xander is a punching bag. Go figure.

 

[Btvs fan]

I think you nailed it.

Compare what Xander says and does with what Spike says and does. Spike is excused and Xander is condemned. Spike is very popular and Xander is a punching bag. Go figure.

Disagree, Nick Brendon was clearly a good looking guy and JW says on the Commentary that he was much to good looking for the role but this is TV so get over it.

 

[thetopher]

But by the same token the writers told Nick to stop working out and rarely had him shirtless, he was relegated to friend-o by S3. Basically he wasn't sexualised 'hotified' for the benefit of the females watching at home the way Spike was, and that perception affected how his character was viewed.

I mean, every level-headed viewer knows that Giles is the best looking guy on the show and yet Spikettes still exist, because tastes vary.


Also telling someone to 'get over it' is a terrible argument.

 

[NotASlayer]

My own disinterested eye can see that Xander would be considered to be attractive - after all, this is a show full of attractive people - but he clearly isn't regarded as being as hot as Spike. After all, Xander is condemned for his interest in Buffy in S1 when she isn't interested in him, yet Buffy is condemned for her disinterest in Spike when he is interested in her. Even though Spike's actions are much, much worse. The only justification for this is Spike is considered more attractive.

And @thetopher is right; guys are hardly my thing but Giles is clearly the most attractive male on the show. It is a shame he was Buffy's father figure because he would have been better for her. Smart, good looking, mature, a bad boy background but in the present is a nice guy, sings, plays guitar (both rather well) and, according to Joyce, has, err, stamina.

 

[hoponlilmama]

But by the same token the writers told Nick to stop working out and rarely had him shirtless, he was relegated to friend-o by S3. Basically he wasn't sexualised 'hotified' for the benefit of the females watching at home the way Spike was, and that perception affected how his character was viewed.

I mean, every level-headed viewer knows that Giles is the best looking guy on the show and yet Spikettes still exist, because tastes vary.


Also telling someone to 'get over it' is a terrible argument.

Xander fell under 'cute'. Not 'hot'. That was reserved first for Angel, and then when Spike came along. Maybe Xander should've bleached his hair!? 😉

And for the record, I'm a devoted Spikette, but my love for Giles definitely grew after each rewatch. He was all of a sudden the dark horse, and I remember one day thinking, 'Well, hello Giles'.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, Xander was definitely seen as 'cute' rather than anything; apart from hyena-Xander who was dangerous enough to be deemed sexy.

Y'know, plenty has been written about some men and the hypocritical 'whore/virgin' paradigm but really the whole 'nice, wholesome guy/hot rape-y dirtbag' thing that many women have has to dug into, because its weird.

And for the record, I'm a devoted Spikette, but my love for Giles definitely grew after each rewatch. He was all of a sudden the dark horse, and I remember one day thinking, 'Well, hello Giles'.

To keep things equitable I would describe myself as a Giles-ette'; we all have our preferences and bias, nothing wrong with that. 🙂

 

[hoponlilmama]

Yeah, Xander was definitely seen as 'cute' rather than anything; apart from hyena-Xander who was dangerous enough to be deemed sexy.

Y'know, plenty has been written about some men and the hypocritical 'whore/virgin' paradigm but really the whole 'nice, wholesome guy/hot rape-y dirtbag' thing that many women have has to dug into, because its weird.

Agree on both points.

To keep things equitable I would describe myself as a Giles-ette'; we all have our preferences and bias, nothing wrong with that. 🙂

Maybe Ripperette is the better term? Also, count me in on that club, thankyouverymuch! 😉