Question So, why did Angel want Lindsey killed?

It's pretty simple to me. It's in the line lorne says"Lindsey youre not part of the solution,and you never will be." Lindsey just isnt part of the solution. He's given a chance time and time again,but each time he comes back to one essential thing:His hatred for angel. He gets a clean start and finds on his journey of finding himself..that he hates angel. As eve says,hes all lindsey talks about.

Lindsey is angels self appointed arch nemesis,and his entire life since the first episode is about humilating him. Lindseys obviously deeply insecure,and driven to a near psychopathic anger at the idea that angel could be better than him. He's a classic narcissist. What he doesnt get throughout the entire series is how generally unimportant he is to angel,which is why he sends lorne to kill him. As the ultimate statement. Lindsey's only there because as he puts it he wants to be there at the end of the world and be on the pages of history,not because of any sort of desire for good. He just wants to stroke his ego. Someone mad a comparison to the joker,I'd say lindsey is more lex luthor. A bitter angry man who will forever fail because of his desire to be important and his envy/hatred of his rival.

At the end of the day,lindseys incapable of being redeemed,hes broken and corrupted. He's evil. He's been given chance after chance after chance,and inevitably he'll just end up back where he started. He always does.

By the way,before i get killed by anybody here,I do want to make clear that lindsey is one of my favorite characters on angel and probably one of the three best villains joss has ever created in my opinion. I just dont get the sort of rampant sympathy i see for him. I mean,I feel sorry for him and hes got his good points. He's very funny and is geuninely capable of love. But,at the end of the day hes still evil. I dont see him in moral greys.
 
This was the most badass way to end Lorne's story on this show.

That said - he had to die. It wasn't a matter of if, but when was Lindsay going to turn on them and destroy all they they held dear. Lindsay was untrustworthy and evil. Yes, an evil human.

It also showed just how far Angel had come as a character. He never would have considered killing Lindsay in Season 1 even if he knew he'd turn on him. By Season 5, that all changed.
 
T
TheVoid68
I agree very much with that last paragraph. S1 Angel would never have killed Lindsey - he was a hero back then.
Angel killed Drogyn; who as near as I can tell, was the closest thing to a warrior monk in the Buffyverse. The only reason he had to do this was because he chose to get in bed with the devil. Angel's plan wasn't some necessary stop the apocalypse or save the humans struggle. Angel made a deal; and when he finally realized the price was too high; forced other people to pay it. Angel is a complete d*uche for all of that.

But seeing as how the guy is a centuries old bad-ass vampire; it's not like it's exactly against his nature. It certainly cast doubt for me on the whole "champion" title. But it does make for a pretty decent story.
 
C
citiegal17
[No message]
I was so excited to see Lindsey die. No offense to anyone that likes him. I think it was the rite move because he cannot be trusted. I also thought that it was the biggest slap in the face to Lindsey by being killed by Lorne. Like he said "Angel is the one that kills me."

Apparently not. Lol. He got what was coming to him.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I agree
Taake
Taake
I wasn't 'excited' but I do like how it ended for him :)
I dont remember which poster said it, but someone eluded to the fact that Angel allowed Fred to die in order to achieve being recruited by the Black Thorn. that's not exactly true. As Angel explained, Fred had already died, so he used her death to further his purpose. He didn't choose for her to die, but since she was dead, this would allow her death to have meaning, and not just be for nothing
 
The fact that Lorne had actually agreed to kill Lindsey , and that he was the one who had heard the guy sing is important, IMHO. There must have been something pretty terrible in that song. So Lorne must have agreed to do it on his own free will , even though he hated it, because the alternative must have been something really bad - at least that's how I read Lorne as a character. Firstly , he is the kindest gentlest soul, secondly, he is a demon of integrity. He would not do murder on somebody else request if he was not sure it was something big he was preventing. Actually , since he was the only one who new for certain what that was - he was the logical choice.
 
K
kittenpoker
excellent points!!
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
@Dorotea - yes, it's a valid point, but the very idea of preventive murder makes me uncomfortable. Besides, Lorne made mistakes before (Knox in s5, Angelus in s4).

I can't get rid of the impression that Joss did it for shock value. I was shocked when it happened.
 
Wesley
That's why you came back to L.A., tried to kill Angel. To get into the circle.
Lindsey
To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners' instrument on Earth. Doesn't get bigger than that.

What is there to question about Lindsey's motives in joining the coup or him being deserving of another chance? After all Lindsey's antics in S5, leaving him in W&H mini-hell to be tortured forever would have been more fitting ending than breaking him out - but much less merciful.
 
I really enjoyed reading this thread because for me, this was definitely something that didn't go down easily.... I digested it slowly, as it were.
 
ladydorotea said:
Wesley
That’s why you came back to L.A., tried to kill Angel. To get into the circle.
Lindsey
To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners’ instrument on Earth. Doesn’t get bigger than that.

What is there to question about Lindsey's motives in joining the coup or him being deserving of another chance? After all Lindsey's antics in S5, leaving him in W&H mini-hell to be tortured forever would have been more fitting ending than breaking him out - but much less merciful.
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Context:

(Wesley shows Lindsey the drawing of The Circle symbol)

LINDSEY: Where'd you get that?

WESLEY: It doesn't matter. What does it mean?

LINDSEY: (chuckles) Is that what all this is about? All these questions about Angel. No. No way. No way they'd take Angel.

SPIKE: Who they?

LINDSEY: The Circle of the Black Thorn.

LORNE: Sounds like a little sewing club for pirates.

LINDSEY: It's a secret society.

GUNN: Never heard of them.

LINDSEY: That's 'cause they're secret.

SPIKE: There's plenty of these cabals about. They usually spend a lot of time in basements paddling one another's bums to prove their manhood.

LINDSEY: These are not frat boys, Spike. The circle's small. It's elite. They got connections you boys can't even comprehend.

WESLEY: They're evil.

LINDSEY: Sure. But evil's not the point. Power is.

WESLEY: Power.

GUNN: OK, we get it. They're bad ass. What do they do?

LINDSEY: (snickers) Jeez. Are you guys always this slow? Huh? Starts with an "a", ends in "pocalypse". It's a well-oiled machine, this circle. These people grease the wheels, keep the parts in place. Make sure man's inhumanity to man keeps rolling along.

WESLEY: We thought the senior partners were responsible for the apocalypse.

LINDSEY: The senior partners are on a different plane. Down here...it's the players in the circle that make things happen. Hell, you get tapped by one of them, it's kind of like getting the keys to the chocolate factory.

WESLEY: That's why you came back to L.A., tried to kill Angel. To get into the circle.

LINDSEY: To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners' instrument on Earth. Doesn't get bigger than that.

GUNN: Looks like Angel succeeded where you failed.

LINDSEY: He doesn't have it in him.

WESLEY: Doesn't have what in him?

LINDSEY: Well, for starters, he's gotta give up the champion angle. Quit saving girls in alleys. Probably wouldn't even make it on the circle's radar until he killed one of his lieutenants.

(Wes, Spike, Gunn and Lorne look at each other, alarmed)

LORNE: The senior partners, the Circle, they're killing Angel by degrees.

WESLEY: And we all watched it happen.

GUNN: The guy I knew wouldn't want this. Wouldn't wanna be this.

WESLEY: Angel dedicated his life to helping others, not because he had to, but because it was a path he'd chosen. If he's been swayed from that, influenced... then maybe there's still time. We can bring him back. He'd do the same for any of us, regardless of our actions.

LORNE: And what if he's skipped too far down that evil brick road?

(cut to Angel, in a repeat from the opening scene, leaping through the firey doorway to where Drogyn is being beaten)
Click to expand...


I interpret Lindsey's words that he tried to get into The Circle to destroy it, because he thought that Angel was too loyal to his friends to sacrifice them to get in.
 
Moscow Watcher said:
Context:
I interpret Lindsey's words that he tried to get into The Circle to destroy it, because he thought that Angel was too loyal to his friends to sacrifice them to get in.
Click to expand...
Nice concept. I agree with it. Although Lindsey is a pretty difficult character to read. I can never tell if he's good or bad. But I guess that's why he's such a great character.
 
Dagenspear said:
Nice concept. I agree with it. Although Lindsey is a pretty difficult character to read. I can never tell if he's good or bad. But I guess that's why he's such a great character.
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I agree, Joss always leaves a lot of space for interpretation. The whole situation in the finale is very ambiguous. On one hand, Lindsey was a wild card. He could betray them all.

Or he could fight with them, shoulder to shoulder, gain respect and recognition, become their new leader. I'm sure that he would never accept Angel's leadership - so he was a threat to Angel's alpha-male position. So, maybe it was one of the reasons why Angel decided to get rid of him.

I feel that Lindsey wanted to infiltrate W&H and destroy it, and then infiltrate the Circle and kill its members -- but my attitude to him may be colored by the fact that the first time I met him in a fanfic "Perfect World" where he, together with Giles and Gunn, was a member of the Resistanse against Adam's rule. So, maybe I'm partial to him.

But even if (a very big if) Lindsey really was a traitor and had to be killed, there is something icky that Angel used Lorne for that. He corrupted Lorn's innocence, turned him into a murderer.

The whole situation echoes back in Twilight arc, where Angel also killed and tortured preventively for the greater good and, as a rule, used somebody else' hands.
 
I never understood this until now. I understand, but I don't think it was needed. And I absolutely hate that Angel asked Lorne to do it. I hate that Lorne agreed to it even more. It seems so not like him to actually do it.

And it was the only time I felt bad for Eve.
 
Moscow Watcher said:
I interpret Lindsey's words that he tried to get into The Circle to destroy it, because he thought that Angel was too loyal to his friends to sacrifice them to get in.
Click to expand...

As somebody else said here - it is hard to read Lindsey... for anybody but one empath demon who heard him sing. I trust that Lorne of all people would be able to discern the truth - and Lindsey was quite a singer. When taken together with that inquiry of Wesley's I think it is more believable that Lindsey's goal ( unlike Angel's -as was proven later in AtF) was not the destruction of W&H from inside and ruining their plan for the final Apo - but rather straightforward access to greater power. Personally, I would not trust Lindsey as far as I can throw him - add Lorne's testimony and I don't trust him even that far.
 
It makes no sense to me,considering he was always for giving Faith another chance and rehabilitating her, but Lindsay didn't get that. I thought there were more important things to worry about then Lindsay. They all pretty much knew they were going to die anyways, so yeah..
 
EvilWillow said:
It makes no sense to me,considering he was always for giving Faith another chance and rehabilitating her, but Lindsay didn't get that. I thought there were more important things to worry about then Lindsay. They all pretty much knew they were going to die anyways, so yeah..
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Eh, Lindsey got three chances already - the last one before Lorne heard him sing? Faith so far, used her second chance well.
 
I completely agree with Angel in killing Lindsey, although I disagree with having Lorne do it. I think that Angel had the guts to make tough decisions in season 5 and I repsect that, and let's not forget that Lindsey has been responsivle for countless deaths, problems with Angel's fang gang, legal problems, they fought in "To Shanshu in L.A." and he has turned on Angel before. Plus, Joss always had the intention of killing Lindsey and he tries mulitiple time, but Chritian Kane would refuse to do the episode until the finale. Either way I think it worked out
 
Moscow Watcher said:
I didn't know about it. Fascinating stuff. Do you have more information about it? Links? Was is Joss who said it? Or it was Christian Kane?
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Yeah, Joss said it in one of the Angel season 5 featurettes, so if you have Angel season 5 DVDs you can find it one of the featurettes.😀

---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

To be more specific, Christian Kane told Joss that he would not do an episode where Lindsey was killed until Joss got him to do it for the finale, but Joss wanted Lindsey dead since season 2
 
Moscow Watcher
Moscow Watcher
Thank you!
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
I so love that story- Christian Kane totally cracks me up!
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