Spike and his redemption arc

[Wesley Pryce]

I voted "Very Poorly",i thought more attention should've been paid to his past sins and the victims thereof. It could have been so amazing,but they watered it down instead.

 

[janas]

Redemption through sex? Very Poorly

 

[brinkster130]

IMO way too much of Spike's redemption story was left up to interpretation for me to find it believable. For the sake of the character, I wish the writers would have dealt with some of Spike's past rather than skipping over it and figuring that him getting a soul and crying in a basement would somehow atone for what we were told about him and what we witnessed him say and do.

 

[Blaze]

I've always been somewhat bothered by this. People hate Spike's redemption arc because he essentially doesn't have one, but thing is he becomes a hero nonetheless. People deal with things differently, and Spike didn't need to have a clear redemption storyline, this would have been so redundant with Angel. There's no right way to deal with getting your soul back, and just because he didn't feel like he should be redeemed the way Angel did doesn't mean that it's wrong. Bottom line is that he became a good man without feeling like he had to be redeemed, and that's fine by me because I view souled vampires and unsouled vampires as separate beings.

Where they messed up for me is that they completely skipped other storylines (Buffy's feeling toward the AR, Willow's fallow up to killing someone and to having an addiction), but I don't really mind that Spike did not have a redemption storyline that was very prominent, I thought what they did was okay.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

It does matter though,if we are to take "New" Spike as someone different from "old" Spike then there needs to be a more pronounced personality difference. There also needed to be a better understanding of just how evil he was,and to see just what his methodology of murder specifically was. Instead they spend most of the time dealing with him being in love with Buffy,instead of him being immersed in guilt over his crimes against his victims. Also on the point of Spike still being in love with Buffy,I never felt it made too much sense. Soulless vampire "Spike" was in love with Buffy,not "William" so why would he still have those romantic feelings for her. But, even if you accept that he did still have those romantic feelings then why would that ever take priority in his mind over the guilt and anxiety he must have felt for all of his sins. If you will recall "William" was the sweetest and most kindhearted guy,so for him to remember these sins should have been far more traumatic than it was presented to the audience in season 7 of Buffy. Spike should have displayed the personality characteristics of William far more and of classic "Spike" far less.I know this has somewhat already been done with Angel,but I truly don't see how you can do a successful,believable redemption arc without having the character dealing with their guilty past. As far as more focus on the scoobies and less focus on spike ,i totally agree,that's what should have been done,but if they were going to focus on Spike they could have at least written it in a more satisfying way.

 

[Blaze]

It does matter though,if we are to take "New" Spike as someone different from "old" Spike then there needs to be a more pronounced personality difference.

I've discussed it previously in detail, but the change is not in the personality difference (notice that even Liam, Angel and Angelus are all similar, but I won't get into that). Remember, a vampire walks, talks like you, he enssetially IS you, but without the conscience. Getting a soul would not necessarily change the personality. That's even shown with the vamp in Convo with dead people that Buffy knew from highschool (I always forget his name).

There also needed to be a better understanding of just how evil he was,and to see just what his methodology of murder specifically was.

I disagree, they made it really clear how evil he was and a lot of people were too blind to see it. The chip basically conditionned him and people forgot he was a monster. To me, it was always clear that prior to the chip he was evil. I don't know why we'd need to know more in that aspect.

Instead they spend most of the time dealing with him being in love with Buffy,instead of him being immersed in guilt over his crimes against his victims.

Except there's nothing forcing Spike to be immersed with guilt. If he knows that he is a different man with a soul and he can separate that with who he used to be, than it's possible that he doesn't believe he was responsible for unsouled Spike's crimes. Again, were only shown 2 vampires in the whole verse that got a soul, people automatically think that the default way they should feel is the way Angel felt after getting his soul, but I don't think it is accurate to say that he should react the same.

Also on the point of Spike still being in love with Buffy,I never felt it made too much sense. Soulless vampire "Spike" was in love with Buffy,not "William" so why would he still have those romantic feelings for her.

Again, this is not unique to Spike. A lot of vampire have previous entanglement with flames from their past. Again that vamp that Buffy knew was really friendly to her. Angel tried to go back to Darla after regaining his soul. Liam hated his father and so did Angelus. Angelus wanted to kill Buffy so badly because she made "him" (Angel) love someone and Angelus despised that. And remember, William loves his mother and so did Spike, it wasn't unique to Buffy. It made perfect sense that he would still love Buffy after regaining his soul, that's the way Spike always was.

But, even if you accept that he did still have those romantic feelings then why would that ever take priority in his mind over the guilt and anxiety he must have felt for all of his sins. If you will recall "William" was the sweetest and most kindhearted guy,so for him to remember these sins should have been far more traumatic than it was presented to the audience in season 7 of Buffy.

Two things, we're missing the whole summer months so it's possible that he did plenty of mopping in those month, but again Angel also put away his feelings of guilt when he met Buffy. Or at least he became functional again. It's not because that were shown that Spike still loves Buffy that it means he doesn't feel guilty. And second point, even if he doesn't feel guilt or anxiety, it doesn't mean he's a bad guy. Spike just reacted differently. Some may say that it was not believable, but personally I think it fitted well with his character. Being Spike changed him, he was no longer William, he had seen things, done things that changed who he was, outside of just being a vampire. Just like Liam and Angel are not the same guy anymore. I think it's a long shot to try to compare William to Spike (soulled), even though they'd still have points in common.

Spike should have displayed the personality characteristics of William far more and of classic "Spike" far less.

Again I don't think this is accurate. He went through too much to be William. This again is consistent with both the character of Angel and Spike

I know this has somewhat already been done with Angel,but I truly don't see how you can do a successful,believable redemption arc without having the character dealing with their guilty past. As far as more focus on the scoobies and less focus on spike ,i totally agree,that's what should have been done,but if they were going to focus on Spike they could have at least written it in a more satisfying way.

I just think that's Spike's actions in s7 were honourable enough that he redeemed himself thought actions only, not thought on guilt and feelings. Again, he didn't have a legit redemption storyline, he just started doing the right stuff.

Also, sorry for all the Angel comparison, I didn't really want to bring him in because last thing I want is a ship wars, but since he's the only other point of comparison I almost had too.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I should've mentioned this from the very start,but I didn't mean this poll or thread to be Spike hatred. I like Spike,and that is why I am disappointed that his initial redemption story was mishandled. Just didn't want any misconceptions about my intentions with this. 🙂 [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] I know you weren't trying to start a ship war with the Angel reference, I understood your intentions and it was an apt comparison so no worries there. 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

'Very Poorly' for me, he basically doesn't have one. Demanding forgiveness rather then earning it is a crap redemption arc.

 

[JReed1985]

I personaly thought that Spike getting a soul and becoming a good guy was just filling the void for Angel.

 

[Kurai]

His decision to regain his soul came out of nowhere, after raping Buffy he suddenly decides to attempt to get his soul back. However, despite having a soul, he's still pretty much the same guy he was before he got his soul back. He seemed to only be fighting for good because of his love for Buffy.

Then, when he gets bought back from the dead, while he was initially just trying to spite Angel, I think that Fred's death and conversion to Illyria made him realise how bad things were, so that's what made him work alongside Angel despite his hatred of him.

So I feel while the arc started off rocky, it got good later on in Angel.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Why would Spike need a redemption arc?

When Angel was cursed to regain his soul, part of the curse was that he would feel responsibility for all the evil that the demon inside of him had done. Spike obtained a soul by his own free will, so he did not have a sense, after regaining his soul, that any redemption was necessary, because the evil was done by a demon inhabiting his old body and mimicking him but not actually being him. Besides, there is the question that both Spike and Angel face - how can you get absolution from anyone but your victims and how can it happen once they were dead?

I would say the Spike redemption arc was not handled at all because it wasn't needed and couldn't exist even if it was.

The closest thing you get to the demonic possession that is vampirism in real life is post-hypnotic suggestion (as in the movie "Telefon") where people are hypnotized into committing terrorist acts via a trigger (much like Spike in Season 7 and the Victorian-era song that sets him off) but have no responsibility for them.

I would vote for a fifth choice - there was no redemption arc.

 

[Kean]

I don't think Spike has a redemption arc. I don't mean that as a slight against him, it's just not something he pursues. Redemption is not a motivation at all. He didn't wear that amulet to redeem himself, he didn't even know what it did, he wore that amulet because Buffy asked it of him. It was about her, not him. Spike does not seek to make amends, he searches for a place in the world.

 

[Blaze]

I don't think Spike has a redemption arc. I don't mean that as a slight against him, it's just not something he pursues. Redemption is not a motivation at all. He didn't wear that amulet to redeem himself, he didn't even know what it did, he wore that amulet because Buffy asked it of him. It was about her, not him. Spike does not seek to make amends, he searches for a place in the world.

This. I don't know about you, but I don't have any problem with Spike not having a redemption arc. It's not event that it was poorly done, it's that it was non-existent. If anything, his arc happens on AtS.

Do I think he redeemed himself in the end. Yes. Do I think it's something he actively seeks out. No.

 

[Kean]

This. I don't know about you, but I don't have any problem with Spike not having a redemption arc. It's not event that it was poorly done, it's that it was non-existent. If anything, his arc happens on AtS.

Do I think he redeemed himself in the end. Yes. Do I think it's something he actively seeks out. No.

Spike doesn't believe in redemption. He thinks it's a self-indulgent load of bollocks. Nothing he does after he gets his soul is about redeeming himself. He doesn't believe he has to. What's done is done in his eyes. All Spike cares about is the here and now.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Spike doesn't believe in redemption. He thinks it's a self-indulgent load of bollocks. Nothing he does after he gets his soul is about redeeming himself. He doesn't believe he has to. What's done is done in his eyes. All Spike cares about is the here and now.

Interesting--I think it's true that he thinks redemption is self-indulgent and mostly bs. Just to embellish/ lend my own take on this, I don't think that he doesn't believe in redemption because he doesn't believe he has to, but rather because of the following reasons:

1) He doesn't think it's possible. Even as a soulless demon who couldn't care less about the matter at all in season 4, his reasoning his clear in "Pangs" when he points out that nothing could be done to apologize for the torture and mistreatment of Native Americans. "You annihilated his race, what could you possibly say that could make him feel better?"

Of course this is a mostly shallow sentiment that is instinctively wrought, given that it is coming from someone who is more or less indifferent to the issue at hand to begin with. But I think it's sort of a foundation for how he feels when he is actually souled and reflective, later on.
He genuinely feels as if it's pointless to atone for the multitude of sins he committed because he couldn't possibly make anything better.

2) He doesn't feel directly responsible for what he did without a soul. I think part of this is rooted in the fact that he got his soul back out of his own free will, (whether for entirely selfish reasons or not). But it's easier for him to draw a line between what he did while soulless and who he is now, than it is for Angel.

Personally I don't particularly agree with either sentiment, (flavors of them, maybe), but in any case this is my understanding of Spike's perspective on redemption post soul.

I want to see much, much more from Spike's redemption arc. I'm very happy that he has the making of one but I want to see it fleshed out. What we've seen post Ats, (from what I recall of the comics), he is mostly defensive and focused on whatever mission's at hand. It's not enough--we could have so much more, many more layers, from him.

 

[fitz1980]

Also on the point of Spike still being in love with Buffy,I never felt it made too much sense. Soulless vampire "Spike" was in love with Buffy,not "William" so why would he still have those romantic feelings for her. But, even if you accept that he did still have those romantic feelings then why would that ever take priority in his mind over the guilt and anxiety he must have felt for all of his sins.

Angel was still in love with Darla 2 years after getting his soul back. He went so far as to track her down during the Boxer Rebellion thinking they could make it work even though that would mean him running around with three inhuman monsters who delighted in the slaughter of innocents. He thought that so long as he only drank from evil men (rapists & murderers) while subsisting on vermin he could handle what they did. It was only after Darla tried to force him to kill a baby that he realized he couldn't take it.

 

[white avenger]

Redemption, much beyond a really sincere "Sorry about that," doesn't seem to be a big issue with Joss. Angel, Buffy, Faith, Willow, Giles, Andrew, Gunn, Wes, Reynolds, Jayne, and I'm sure that there are others that I've missed, kill, rob, and even try to destroy the world as the situation seems to present itself, and none of them, with the exception of Faith, ever even go through the motions of accepting any sort of penalty for their crimes, something that I believe should be at least a part of any true, sincere redemption attempt.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

Angel, Buffy, Faith, Willow, Giles (...) kill, rob, and even try to destroy the world as the situation seems to present itself, and none of them, with the exception of Faith, ever even go through the motions of accepting any sort of penalty for their crimes, something that I believe should be at least a part of any true, sincere redemption attempt.

To waste their time with penalty is actually more immoral than to completely ignore it. How many humans lost their lives because Faith selfishly hidden herself in a prison refusing to protect them? Buffy and the rest are right to move on as fast as they can and continue to do what they do, Faith's just a lazy, self-centered brat in my opinion.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Redemption, much beyond a really sincere "Sorry about that," doesn't seem to be a big issue with Joss. Angel, Buffy, Faith, Willow, Giles, Andrew, Gunn, Wes, Reynolds, Jayne, and I'm sure that there are others that I've missed, kill, rob, and even try to destroy the world as the situation seems to present itself, and none of them, with the exception of Faith, ever even go through the motions of accepting any sort of penalty for their crimes, something that I believe should be at least a part of any true, sincere redemption attempt.

Such crap.

Given the entire point of Angel having a spin off is Angel fighting evil for redemption for what he did this point of view makes no sense.

Buffy returns the money she stole, so I dont see how thats not accepting responsibility.

 

[The Scourge]

It was pretty poorly handled on Buffy. It was much better on Angel. Off the top of my head Hellbound and Damaged explored Spike's state of mind about the things he's done. And there were plenty of conversations with Angel about them both being monsters. Its been a while, but I remember being happier with Spike on Angel than I was with him on Buffy the last few seasons.