Spike and his redemption arc

[thetopher]

I sort of bought Spike's redeption right up until 'Lies My Parents Told Me'- then it lost me. He seemed sorry for all the people he killed, but not the slayers?
Killing a slayer is okay? Killing a force for good, somebody who protects and fights for others isn't worth apologizing over?

After that (although I still thought he was cool) I wished Spike had stayed dead at the end of Season 7. It would've been a fitting end.

 

[white avenger]

Such crap.

Given the entire point of Angel having a spin off is Angel fighting evil for redemption for what he did this point of view makes no sense.

Buffy returns the money she stole, so I dont see how thats not accepting responsibility.

This is a matter of interpretation, and obviously, we don't agree on what constitutes restitution. For me, Buffy returning the goods that she stole in Season 8 might be considered restitution, but neither Spike nor Angel could possibly restore or replace the people that they have killed and the grief that they have caused over their careers as vampires. For that matter, neither could Faith, but she did at least willingly submit herself for trial and agree to serve a prison term in punishment for her crimes, something that none of Joss' other characters have bothered to do (yes, I know that she only served a few years of her sentence, but even serving that partial term is more than any other character has done)


Resolving to try and be a better man/woman in the future, which is what Spike, Angel and the others have done is reforming, not making restitution, and how it is handled is unique to each character, whether it be helping the helpless, not abusing their skills in magic, or simply trying to be a better man or woman in the future.



res·ti·tu·tion (rst-tshn, -ty-)
n.
1. The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation.
2. The act of making good or compensating for loss, damage, or injury; indemnification.
3. A return to or restoration of a previous state or position.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


res·o·lu·tion (rz-lshn)
n.
1. The state or quality of being resolute; firm determination.
2. A resolving to do something.
3. A course of action determined or decided on.
4. A formal statement of a decision or expression of opinion put before or adopted by an assembly such as the U.S. Congress.
5. Physics & Chemistry The act or process of separating or reducing something into its constituent parts: the prismatic resolution of sunlight into its spectral colors.
6. The fineness of detail that can be distinguished in an image, as on a video display terminal.
7. Medicine The subsiding or termination of an abnormal condition, such as a fever or an inflammation.
8. Law A court decision.
9.
a. An explanation, as of a problem or puzzle; a solution.
b. The part of a literary work in which the complications of the plot are resolved or simplified.
10. Music
a. The progression of a dissonant tone or chord to a consonant tone or chord.
b. The tone or chord to which such a progression is made.
11. The substitution of one metrical unit for another, especially the substitution of two short syllables for one long syllable in quantitative verse.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

English definition of “reformed character”
reformed character
noun [C]
› someone who has changed and become a much better person: He was in trouble with the police a lot when he was younger, but now he's a reformed character.
(Definition of reformed character noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
Focus on the pronunciation of reformed character

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is a matter of interpretation, and obviously, we don't agree on what constitutes restitution. For me, Buffy returning the goods that she stole in Season 8 might be considered restitution, but neither Spike nor Angel could possibly restore or replace the people that they have killed and the grief that they have caused over their careers as vampires. For that matter, neither could Faith, but she did at least willingly submit herself for trial and agree to serve a prison term in punishment for her crimes, something that none of Joss' other characters have bothered to do (yes, I know that she only served a few years of her sentence, but even serving that partial term is more than any other character has done)


Resolving to try and be a better man/woman in the future, which is what Spike, Angel and the others have done is reforming, not making restitution, and how it is handled is unique to each character, whether it be helping the helpless, not abusing their skills in magic, or simply trying to be a better man or woman in the future.



res·ti·tu·tion (rst-tshn, -ty-)
n.
1. The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation.
2. The act of making good or compensating for loss, damage, or injury; indemnification.
3. A return to or restoration of a previous state or position.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


res·o·lu·tion (rz-lshn)
n.
1. The state or quality of being resolute; firm determination.
2. A resolving to do something.
3. A course of action determined or decided on.
4. A formal statement of a decision or expression of opinion put before or adopted by an assembly such as the U.S. Congress.
5. Physics & Chemistry The act or process of separating or reducing something into its constituent parts: the prismatic resolution of sunlight into its spectral colors.
6. The fineness of detail that can be distinguished in an image, as on a video display terminal.
7. Medicine The subsiding or termination of an abnormal condition, such as a fever or an inflammation.
8. Law A court decision.
9.
a. An explanation, as of a problem or puzzle; a solution.
b. The part of a literary work in which the complications of the plot are resolved or simplified.
10. Music
a. The progression of a dissonant tone or chord to a consonant tone or chord.
b. The tone or chord to which such a progression is made.
11. The substitution of one metrical unit for another, especially the substitution of two short syllables for one long syllable in quantitative verse.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

English definition of "reformed character"
reformed character
noun [C]
"º someone who has changed and become a much better person: He was in trouble with the police a lot when he was younger, but now he's a reformed character.
(Definition of reformed character noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
Focus on the pronunciation of reformed character

But as you said in the original post you said "none of them, with the exception of Faith, ever even go through the motions of accepting any sort of penalty for their crime"

According to your own definitions there:

The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation. - Thats exactly what Buffy did


The act of making good or compensating for loss - That is exactly what Angel did, he left Sunnydale and dedicated him life to saving people, who without him would have been killed, this is an act of compensating for the amount of people he has killed.


I agreed that Willow, Giles, Andrew, Gunn, Wes, Mal didn't show much in the way of needing redemption, but each of them does fight evil for no benefit to themselves, and for some of them they didn't kill innocent people, and dont see a need for redemption.

Spike and Jayne are different they actively show no remorse for what they've done even though their victims do fall into the innocent category.

 

[white avenger]

But as you said in the original post you said "none of them, with the exception of Faith, ever even go through the motions of accepting any sort of penalty for their crime"

According to your own definitions there:

The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation. - Thats exactly what Buffy did


The act of making good or compensating for loss - That is exactly what Angel did, he left Sunnydale and dedicated him life to saving people, who without him would have been killed, this is an act of compensating for the amount of people he has killed.


I agreed that Willow, Giles, Andrew, Gunn, Wes, Mal didn't show much in the way of needing redemption, but each of them does fight evil for no benefit to themselves, and for some of them they didn't kill innocent people, and dont see a need for redemption.

Spike and Jayne are different they actively show no remorse for what they've done even though their victims do fall into the innocent category.

I also said that Buffy returning what she stole might be considered restitution. Maybe I should have used "could" rather than "might." However, Angel leaving Sunnydale is neither attempting to restore the lives that he took as Angelus nor attempting to compensate anyone in any way for any property loss or injuries that he might have caused. Vowing to become the champion of the oppressed doesn't restore any previous destruction or death that he might have caused.

Whether Spike felt any remorse or not doesn't change the fact that he also would be helpless to restore a single life that he took in his evil days, therefore restitution, by definition, is impossible. What he can do, and apparently so far has done, is resolve not to be that same mass murderer that he was in the past. That is resolve, not restitution.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I also said that Buffy returning what she stole might be considered restitution. Maybe I should have used "could" rather than "might."

Not in the original post, which is why I brought up the point.

However, Angel leaving Sunnydale is neither attempting to restore the lives that he took as Angelus nor attempting to compensate anyone in any way for any property loss or injuries that he might have caused. Vowing to become the champion of the oppressed doesn't restore any previous destruction or death that he might have caused.

He himself is the first to say there is no way of clearing his past, but you said the characters dont take any responsibility for what they've done, and make no gesture like Faith did to correct it. Angel did just that. He saves lives now, becasue of his past, he fights to save lives because of all the hurt he caused, that is definitely showing remorse and works towards helping him restore his past, so much so that a higher power tells him that there is a possibility of restoration, so your point is moot.

Whether Spike felt any remorse or not doesn't...

Thats not even a question, he says it himself he doesn't.

change the fact that he also would be helpless to restore a single life that he took in his evil days, therefore restitution, by definition, is impossible. What he can do, and apparently so far has done, is resolve not to be that same mass murderer that he was in the past. That is resolve, not restitution.

Very good of him, definitely deserves the title of champion.

 

[fitz1980]

I sort of bought Spike's redeption right up until 'Lies My Parents Told Me'- then it lost me. He seemed sorry for all the people he killed, but not the slayers?
Killing a slayer is okay? Killing a force for good, somebody who protects and fights for others isn't worth apologizing over?

In Buffy ep 2 Buffy tells Xander he has to remember that Jesse "isn't your best friend anymore. That thing in there is what killed your best friend." Perhaps Spike feels like that too, that it wasn't really him, it was the demon who did it while his soul in limbo.

In the ep where Buffy gets Spike to tell her about the slayers he killed she's a bit disturbed about the pleasure he took in it. He says "how many of my kind have you killed; you enjoyed it.

Also Wood knew that he had a soul and didn't even try to have a conversation with him first. Wood just tried to goad him into going vamp-face so he could dust him with a clear conscience."

 

[Black Eye Guy]

In Buffy ep 2 Buffy tells Xander he has to remember that Jesse "isn't your best friend anymore. That thing in there is what killed your best friend." Perhaps Spike feels like that too, that it wasn't really him, it was the demon who did it while his soul in limbo.

But that can't be true, as he takes responsibility for getting the soul. If he's not accountable for the crimes, he's not accountable for getting the soul and he says it lots of times that he chose to go and get that soul.

 

[thetopher]

In Buffy ep 2 Buffy tells Xander he has to remember that Jesse "isn't your best friend anymore. That thing in there is what killed your best friend." Perhaps Spike feels like that too, that it wasn't really him, it was the demon who did it while his soul in limbo.

In the ep where Buffy gets Spike to tell her about the slayers he killed she's a bit disturbed about the pleasure he took in it. He says "how many of my kind have you killed; you enjoyed it.

Also Wood knew that he had a soul and didn't even try to have a conversation with him first. Wood just tried to goad him into going vamp-face so he could dust him with a clear conscience."

I get that Spike doesn't feel bad for killing a slayer, a force for good, because he doesn't see himself as the same person who did all those things...except he dresses the same, same hair, acts the same (same accent- the fake one.), same sense of humour, same murder victim coat, same bad boy swagger, his love for Buffy.

The more I think about it, the more I have a real problem with this...the motivation of the writers seems to be Spike is such a cool character...that they won't/can't change anything about him once he gets his soul back, just have him be crazy for a bit, then he'll get over it, then he can go back to loving Buffy.
It's incredibly lazy, and makes no sense.
Angel and Angelus act very differently (although they can pass for each other for a time), Darla with and without soul (as a human and a vampire) has distictive personality traits that differ from each other.

Spike is basically the same guy with or without soul, that makes him more accountable for his actions not less.

Although, to be honest, I am glad they didn't give more screen time to Spike by giving him a real, decent redeption story (he already had sleeper/chip/romance/Wood revenge plots), I just wish Willow would've gotten one instead. I like her a lot more. 🙂

 

[Lyri]

But that can't be true, as he takes responsibility for getting the soul. If he's not accountable for the crimes, he's not accountable for getting the soul and he says it lots of times that he chose to go and get that soul.

This is pretty much where I fall down on the whole 'Spike's redemption' arc.

Spike fans are adamant that Spike should not be held responsible for anything that Spike did while soulless, for any decision he made. But at the same time, it was this person, this soulless creature, who made the decision to go and try to get his soul back, and certain people think he should be praised for that.

He can't be responsible for one good decision and not be responsible for the rest of his decisions when he was the same soulless person.

I do think that [MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION] has a point; it IS lazy writing. They wanted to make Spike into a better person, but at the same time, they didn't want to get rid of the character that they created. But I think there were better ways that they could have done this, they could have kept Spike the character, but changed him just enough to make a difference. Even a show of guilt, a few scenes spent mourning the people he killed, might have been enough for some people.

 

[Kean]

Spike has made it very clear that he views his vampirism as an improvement on who he was as a human. He loves being a vampire, it isn't something he has ever apologised for. Spike doesn't begin to consider the cost of his actions until Damage, after which we see a shift in his actions, he takes a lot of cues from Angel's path, falls in with "Doyle" and thinks about redemption in regards himself. That's about as far as it goes. It never becomes something he is truly compelled by. He still believes being a vampire is better than the alternative, the only reason he went after Shanshu was because it was important to Angel.

In a lot of ways Spike is an anomaly among the other vampires with souls we have seen i.e. Angel and Darla, who experienced real regret and were haunted by their soulless deeds. I don't think the show ever came up with a decent reason why Spike didn't feel that. In truth, I think the only reason Spike was given the soul was because they had no way to justify him being around in the story after S6. He proved himself a real threat again and by all rules of the show he should have been dusted. They wanted to keep the character so all logic was thrown out the window in terms of his actual characterisation.

In my headcanon, "Spike" is a persona that vamped William chose for himself. It's a character with a put on accent, costume and affectations. It is not a true reflection of who that vampire actually is, but perhaps who he wants to be. "Spike" is a choice William makes, not actually who he is, and that's why he never fits in anywhere, why he attaches himself to other people and their causes, and why he can essentially be the same, soul or no soul.

That's the only way he works for me.

 

[thetopher]

Spike has made it very clear that he views his vampirism as an improvement on who he was as a human. He loves being a vampire, it isn't something he has ever apologised for. Spike doesn't begin to consider the cost of his actions until Damage, after which we see a shift in his actions, he takes a lot of cues from Angel's path, falls in with "Doyle" and thinks about redemption in regards himself. That's about as far as it goes. It never becomes something he is truly compelled by. He still believes being a vampire is better than the alternative, the only reason he went after Shanshu was because it was important to Angel.

In a lot of ways Spike is an anomaly among the other vampires with souls we have seen i.e. Angel and Darla, who experienced real regret and were haunted by their soulless deeds. I don't think the show ever came up with a decent reason why Spike didn't feel that. In truth, I think the only reason Spike was given the soul was because they had no way to justify him being around in the story after S6. He proved himself a real threat again and by all rules of the show he should have been dusted. They wanted to keep the character so all logic was thrown out the window in terms of his actual characterisation.

In my headcanon, "Spike" is a persona that vamped William chose for himself. It's a character with a put on accent, costume and affectations. It is not a true reflection of who that vampire actually is, but perhaps who he wants to be. "Spike" is a choice William makes, not actually who he is, and that's why he never fits in anywhere, why he attaches himself to other people and their causes, and why he can essentially be the same, soul or no soul.

That's the only way he works for me.

This explanation actually makes a lot of sense to me, since we see William after he's been turned, still loving his Mother, still devoted, and then of course she tears into him and so he becomes 'big bad Spike', always spoiling for a fight and fearless.

The only problem I have with this theory is that, if it were true, then Spike would be incredibley pathetic.
Think about it for a moment, in his own mind the personna of Spike would be linked to decades of violence and thousands of lives killed, and yet still William can't let go of the 'character' he created and become himself, William. He's that insecure. Despite all those 'realisations' he made in 'Lies My Parents Told Me', he still must cling to all those trappings...because after everything, maybe that's all he's got left. 🙁

Man, I almost feel sorry for him.
Except he's just so full of himself, always has been and apparently always will be. The guy just doesn't do humble, or self-doubt.
I guess that's what a lot of fans like about him.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh I think Spike doubts himself a lot, he just hides it better then most.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Oh I think Spike doubts himself a lot, he just hides it better then most.

Sorry but absolutely not.
Spike is an absolute emotional wreck of a character, he can't hide anything every emotions is worn on his sleeve.

 

[thetopher]

Sorry but absolutely not.
Spike is an absolute emotional wreck of a character, he can't hide anything every emotions is worn on his sleeve.

Totally agree. characters like Wesley and Faith hide their insecurities, but Spike wears them openly, he's supposed to be a romantic after all, it fits.

Look at him in 'Lover's Walk', or 'Doomed', if he feels sorry for himself he lets the world know about it. When he thinks Buffy's done him wrong in love, he can't wait to tell her, he doesn't stew or hide his feelings in any way.

The only character more openly insecure is Willow, and that's only in the early seasons.

 

[Silverspike]

Sorry but absolutely not.
Spike is an absolute emotional wreck of a character, he can't hide anything every emotions is worn on his sleeve.

When it comes to love, maybe, but hiding other emotions, well lets just say I disagree with your view of how he deals with them, but then I admit actually like the character rather then hate him. 🙂

Also (and I'm sure you'll disagree with this one 😀) but I think Spike down the seasons matured somewhat compared to when we first met him in School Hard which I see as his 'teenage years'. 😀

 

[Kana]

When it comes to love, maybe, but hiding other emotions, well lets just say I disagree with your view of how he deals with them, but then I admit actually like the character rather then hate him. 🙂

Agreed! I think its far too simplistic to say that Spike always wears his heart on his sleeve. While he openly admits he's love's bitch, he also puts up a 'tough guy' front and consciously changed aspects of his personality after becoming a vampire.

He was also embarrassed by the fact that his mother used to sing 'Early One Morning' when he was adult.

I think Spike does feel guilty about the past, but he merely deals with it differently from Angel. He also had a lot more support than Angel did as well.

As I've said before, people deal with guilt differently and it was never made fact that Angel's way of dealing with things was the default.

People always say that FE made Spike crazy, but I disagree. It was his guilt that made him crazy. I've never know the FE to create feelings that were not already present. for example it used Angel's already existing feelings of guilt to torment him. I can't see how the situation with Spike would be any different. Even the trigger was based upon his already existing repressed issues.

Also (and I'm sure you'll disagree with this one 😀) but I think Spike down the seasons matured somewhat compared to when we first met him in School Hard which I see as his 'teenage years'. 😀

I would certainly say he changed over the years. It was never stated that vampires remain static. Actually scratch that, Spike was the one who stated just that in School Hard, but look how that turned out!!! He also stated that a vampire being in love with a Slayer was a 'perversion' but well...

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think Spike does feel guilty about the past, but he merely deals with it differently from Angel. He also had a lot more support than Angel did as well.

But it's not that he deals with it differently, he doesn't deal with it all. He ignores it and goes on acting like the ass he's always been, he has no problem wearing the coat he stole from the women of a young boy he killed, cuz he doesn't care.
He can forgive himself, he doesn't process it in another way, he just thinks he's earned forgiveness.

As I've said before, people deal with guilt differently and it was never made fact that Angel's way of dealing with things was the default.

I have such a problem with this argument.

So why should Spike be forgiven? Spike fans like to use the fact that Angel and Angelus are different people and apply that to Spike and why he should be forgiven. But you can't use the argument that Angel and Angelus are different, so that applies to Spike, but then say the guilt works differently.

I actually agree that Angel isn't the default, or Spike is an anomaly. Same thing really, but either way, just cuz a scenario applies to Angel doesn't mean it should apply to Spike. Angel and Angelus are different people, that doesn't mean Spike pre and post soul are different.

 

[thetopher]

But Spike is all about being a romantic, and saying whats on his mind.
That's one of his defining characteristics, he even says himself that hes' 'never been much of a thinker', never much for introspection or thinking about his evil nature.
He doesn't have any doubts about himself, sure he might feel embarrassment, but that's hardly the same as questioning yourself, your morality, the lines you've crossed, unlike say Wesley, Angel or Faith.

And, sure he might feel guilt to begin with, no doubt made worse by the FE, but he gets over it pretty darn quickly, and he doesn't feel remorse for some of the things he does (killing the slayers, how he treated Buffy, etc.), so I'm not sure about how sincere it all is.

Spike doesn't have to brood like Angel to show remorse or doubt, but all I see in him is the same swaggering arrogance he had when he was evil.🙁

 

[Kana]

But it's not that he deals with it differently, he doesn't deal with it all. He ignores it and goes on acting like the ass he's always been, he has no problem wearing the coat he stole from the women of a young boy he killed, cuz he doesn't care.
He can forgive himself, he doesn't process it in another way, he just thinks he's earned forgiveness.

I suppose I should put it another way, in that he reacts differently. My point of contention is that there is a difference between not feelings guilty and not openly displaying that guilt.

As for his behaviour from Get It Done onwards, I do have issue with it as well. LMPTM is the episode that perhaps annoys me the most. Spike is total ass in that ep!

The problem is, he goes around thinking he's dealing with it but he hasn't got a clue, just like Angel didn't have a clue.

Also I believe in Get It Done, he's playing up to 'tough guy' image, because just like his soul quest to begin with, he's trying to be who he believes Buffy wants him to be.

All this being said, there is no excuse for Spike wearing the jacket post soul though.

I have such a problem with this argument.

So why should Spike be forgiven? Spike fans like to use the fact that Angel and Angelus are different people and apply that to Spike and why he should be forgiven. But you can't use the argument that Angel and Angelus are different, so that applies to Spike, but then say the guilt works differently.

I was only talking that Spike feels guilt, but he doesn't always show it. I never said anything about Angel or Angelus being different etc, nor did I comment on whether or not he should be forgiven.

I actually agree that Angel isn't the default, or Spike is an anomaly. Same thing really, but either way, just cuz a scenario applies to Angel doesn't mean it should apply to Spike. Angel and Angelus are different people, that doesn't mean Spike pre and post soul are different.

As I said in the Bangel thread, I think we need to be precise in what we mean when we talk about Angel and Angelus being 'different'.

There is a difference between saying that Angel and Angelus are separate individuals (in the same way Buffy and Xander are separate individuals) and saying Angel and Angelus are the same person but he merely behaves incredibly different when he hasn't got a soul.

Someone used a great analogy of comparing 'Normal Willow' to 'Dark Willow'. Now obviously there are not separate people, but it's fair to say he behaviour was dramatically different. She is however 'numerically' the same individual who tried to destroy the world.

For me, the point is clarifying that the same basic metaphysical rules apply to both vampires, but this doesn't mean that psychologically they are going to react in the same way.

 

[Silverspike]

Great post Kana

But it's not that he deals with it differently, he doesn't deal with it all. He ignores it and goes on acting like the ass he's always been, he has no problem wearing the coat he stole from the women of a young boy he killed, cuz he doesn't care.
He can forgive himself, he doesn't process it in another way, he just thinks he's earned forgiveness.

But does he? From the AtS episode 'Damage'

SPIKE
Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off.

ANGEL
(walks in)
A lot of pain?

SPIKE
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

ANGEL
(sighs)
I didn't say that.

SPIKE
No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL
I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.

SPIKE
What happens to her?

ANGEL
I don't know. Um, Andrew and the slayers took her. Didn't trust us to help her.

SPIKE
Andrew double-crossed us? That's a good move.
(chuckles)
Hope for the little ponce yet. Though the tingling in my forearms tells me she's too far gone to help. She's...one of us now. She's a monster.

ANGEL
She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE
So were we... once upon a time.