Spike and his redemption arc

[thetopher]

Four words.

Too little, too late. 😉

 

[Silverspike]

Not from where I'm standing. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

If I were still in the habit of defending Spike, which I am not, I might point out that Spike didn't change drastically simply because he was a character established from Season 2 through Season 6, and the writers simply didn't want to make any drastic changes in him for fear that the Spike fans would reject him as a smaller, blond version of Angel. There was no such risk with Angel, because it was Angel with an "us" on the end of his name who showed the drastic change from the established character, and in that form, he was only a guest star in the story line. If we had seen Angelus for 5 years, then suddenly he regained his soul and became Mr Brooding Guy, he (Angelus) would have lost a lot of fans, assuming that he had any in the first place.

Spike's redemption arc, if such really does exist, has to be far more subtle that the sudden metamorphosis that was used for Angelus/Angel. Spike doesn't brood over things that he can no longer do anything about, he does what Buffy needs him to do when he becomes, "The old Spike, the Spike who almost killed me when we first met," and that is what Spike sees as his real redemption, the only one he ever wanted, and the reason that he got the soul in the first place.

He became what Buffy needed.

That's what I would say if I were still in the business of defending Spike, but I'm not. Mainly because I've come to realize one very important thing over the last few days.

But it's a secret.

 

[thetopher]

If I were still in the habit of defending Spike, which I am not, I might point out that Spike didn't change drastically simply because he was a character established from Season 2 through Season 6, and the writers simply didn't want to make any drastic changes in him for fear that the Spike fans would reject him as a smaller, blond version of Angel. There was no such risk with Angel, because it was Angel with an "us" on the end of his name who showed the drastic change from the established character, and in that form, he was only a guest star in the story line. If we had seen Angelus for 5 years, then suddenly he regained his soul and became Mr Brooding Guy, he (Angelus) would have lost a lot of fans, assuming that he had any in the first place.

Spike's redemption arc, if such really does exist, has to be far more subtle that the sudden metamorphosis that was used for Angelus/Angel. Spike doesn't brood over things that he can no longer do anything about, he does what Buffy needs him to do when he becomes, "The old Spike, the Spike who almost killed me when we first met," and that is what Spike sees as his real redemption, the only one he ever wanted, and the reason that he got the soul in the first place.

He became what Buffy needed.

That's what I would say if I were still in the business of defending Spike, but I'm not. Mainly because I've come to realize one very important thing over the last few days.

But it's a secret.

I'm not sure anyones asking for Spike to be a carbon copy of the Angel/Angelus dicohotomy, but something, one personality difference would be nice- something to indicate that the writers knew what the hell they were doing when they gave him a soul, apart from 'now we can have Spuffy!'

But since nobody, not one of his fans has been able to come up with one thing, I presume that Spike 'the persona' didn't change at all, post-soul, just moped for a bit, before becoming what Buffy needed in S7.

Which was a 'yes man' apprently. 😛

Spike's redemption arc starts in Angel season 5 when he has to become his own character seperate from Buffy, and ends when he comes back in the comics as exactly the same Spike we've all seen before. 🙄

It's sad, it really is.

Because I've actually figured out what the real problem with Spike actually is.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

All this being said, there is no excuse for Spike wearing the jacket post soul though.

I'm glad you say that, it's one of the most disgusting things Spike has done and a lot of people just excuse it.

As I said in the Bangel thread, I think we need to be precise in what we mean when we talk about Angel and Angelus being 'different'.

There is a difference between saying that Angel and Angelus are separate individuals (in the same way Buffy and Xander are separate individuals) and saying Angel and Angelus are the same person but he merely behaves incredibly different when he hasn't got a soul.

Someone used a great analogy of comparing 'Normal Willow' to 'Dark Willow'. Now obviously there are not separate people, but it's fair to say he behaviour was dramatically different. She is however 'numerically' the same individual who tried to destroy the world.

For me, the point is clarifying that the same basic metaphysical rules apply to both vampires, but this doesn't mean that psychologically they are going to react in the same way.

I agree with most of that, except where do you draw the line between metaphysical and psychological.
for me the show states quite clearly that Angel/Angel/Spike are the exact same people as William and Liam, just without a soul.
The early seasons have examples of characters saying they aren't the same person, but over the time the shows mythology that we actually see pick away at that. Giles knew a lot of information from learning, practical application showed he knew very little. I think vampire mythology was one of the things he knew but didn't understand.
I believe if Liam was human and had his soul removed he'd be the exact same as Angelus, everything we see in the show teaches me that. As far as I can tell the vampire isn't a personality it is basically something that allows the body to continue to "live" without a soul.
Liam becomes Angelus, then Angel and he's still aware he likes the kill he mentions that, he knows he has to keep those urges in place.
Spike gets a soul and comes back like "Look I'm fixed!" *jazz hands*

But does he? From the AtS episode 'Damage'

Where is that for the rest of the season?
Where is that in the comics?

I have said many many times, the character of Spike is 150 times better while working under Angel, and learning from him. He became humbler and more remorseful over season 5 of Angel, but all that went out the window and didn't go anywhere in the comics.

the writers simply didn't want to make any drastic changes in him for fear that the Spike fans would reject him as a smaller, blond version of Angel

Thats crap, Angel fans have no issue with Angelus, hell even Angel after Angelus is very different to pre Angelus.
I do agree that the writers were afraid, and that is part of why I hate Spike fans. Writers should NEVER bow down to fans. They tell the stories, we can like them or not, they shouldn't course correct a story to suit fans, it's one of BtVS and Angels biggest flaws, they listened to fans way to much.
I've seen a lot of interviews with panels from really fantastic shows and they always saw the same thing, you shouldn't be afraid to piss of the fans, at least you stay true to the story your telling.
The writers had no problem breaking up Tara and Willow or Xander and Anya, they killed Fred, Cordy, Anya all of this and for some reason an ongoing thing about the series is 'Dont piss off the big bad whiney Spike fans'
Might sound harsh, but Spike fans are holding the quality of the series at ransom and everyone is too afraid of them throwing a hissy fit, the comics and the joke of a character that Spike is in that just proves that.

He became what Buffy needed.

Thats not good enough.
He became what he THOUGHT Buffy needed, becasue thats what HE wanted.

 

[Silverspike]

Where is that for the rest of the season?
Where is that in the comics?

Well he was the first one to put his hand up to volunteer for Angels last stand against Wolfram and Hart and he stayed to help Angel try and get Fred back.

As for the comics, well I know tastes vary but I think they're utter crap and aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Sorry.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Well he was the first one to put his hand up to volunteer for Angels last stand against Wolfram and Hart and he stayed to help Angel try and get Fred back.

He does, but thats not out of redemption, he has been fighting all along, he shows a moment of caring in 1 episode and then goes back to not caring.
And again, Spike under Angels guidence is a much better person. He thinks being the person he things Buffy wants makes him a good person, when instead it's learning from Angel that makes him a better person. Once again he's learning from Angel.

As for the comics, well I know tastes vary but I think they're utter crap and aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Sorry.

Thats fine, but irrelevant. It's still canon he's gone back to not giving a crap and doing whatever he wants.

 

[Robb Stark]

@black eyed guy,

To be fair, Spike didn't tell anyone about his soul when he came back to Sunnydale. That was revealed a bit later.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

A bit late to this party, but I voted "Very Poorly"

In general, I think all of BtVS's redemption arcs aside from Angel's and Faith's (and large chunks of theirs were on the spin-off) were handled embarrassingly poorly, and most border on insulting. Willow's may be the worst, but Spike's is almost as bad.

The worst thing about it is that not much attention is paid to the feelings of his most recent victim, Buffy herself. When your female hero suffers an almost rape, you need to deal with that crap. I don't care how badly people wanted Spike to get redeemed, it shouldn't have gotten priority over Buffy's feelings. Secondly, Spike doesn't display much redeeming qualities when he has a soul. He pouts and whines about the discomfort at being chained up despite the fact that he was a clear danger to everyone in that house, and he continues to wear the trophy he "won" from a dead slayer. The scariest thing to me is that Joss intended for Spike to stay dead after "Chosen," so that would have been it for his redemption arc. If we were meant to see him as redeemed after the events of LMPTM, I don't know what the writers were smoking.

Ironically enough, an episode entitled "Damage" did some much needed damage control on Spike's character, and made him a lot more bearable. AtS in general had much better redemption arcs, but alas the show was cut short before Spike got the chance to evolve further (and no, Joss, I don't consider him the more "evolved" vampire, at least not yet).

 

[white avenger]

The worst thing about it is that not much attention is paid to the feelings of his most recent victim, Buffy herself. When your female hero suffers an almost rape, you need to deal with that crap.

This is in defense of Buffy, not Spike, but I have always believed that Buffy's feelings in this matter were that, if she could defend and protect Angel after what Angelus had done, she would damn do no less for Spike after he had regained his soul. If you recall, her friends were just as adamant that Angel could no longer be trusted and that he should be destroyed for what had happened in Season 2. Buffy defended Angel in Season 3, and she defended Spike in Season 7. She believed that Angel was a better man than Angelus, and she believed that Spike was a better man with a soul than he was without one. She didn't hold Spike in Season 7 any more responsible for what Spike tried to do in Season 6. She looked at Spike and saw a better man. Call that wrong and reckless, even downright stupid, but that, I believe, is why Buffy believed in him.

 

[Xin Rong]

This is in defense of Buffy, not Spike, but I have always believed that Buffy's feelings in this matter were that, if she could defend and protect Angel after what Angelus had done, she would damn do no less for Spike after he had regained his soul. If you recall, her friends were just as adamant that Angel could no longer be trusted and that he should be destroyed for what had happened in Season 2. Buffy defended Angel in Season 3, and she defended Spike in Season 7. She believed that Angel was a better man than Angelus, and she believed that Spike was a better man with a soul than he was without one. She didn't hold Spike in Season 7 any more responsible for what Spike tried to do in Season 6. She looked at Spike and saw a better man. Call that wrong and reckless, even downright stupid, but that, I believe, is why Buffy believed in him.

I see your logic, and agree with it to a certain extent, but there is a bit of a difference here. If you consider a souled vampire and a none souled vampire to be separate entities, as I do, and I think you may do? Then Buffy had never actually met the Spike who appears in season 7, and she had no reason to trust him, other than the 'good' actions he did with a chip, which obviously don't count.

The difference with Angel, is that from Buffy's point of view, she knew him prior to his second bout of soulessness, which to her would have been his first, so during his second bout of soulhaving, she already knew him, so to speak.

This means that in season 7, Buffy should have been a hell of lot more cautious than she was with Spike, as ultimately she was pretty much dealing with a stranger, someone she hadn't really encountered before, so she had no idea of what he was capable of. Plenty of people with souls are bad, Buffy had no real evidence that Spike with a soul was a good person. The scoobies may have been prejudice, but I think their stance was more appropriate than Buffy's I trust you 'cos I feel like I can, although, personally I would have maybe been more open to giving Spike an opportunity to prove himself than the scoobs were, but then again his 'body' didn't try and rape my friend, so who knows.

 

[white avenger]

The difference with Angel, is that from Buffy's point of view, she knew him prior to his second bout of soulessness, which to her would have been his first, so during his second bout of soulhaving, she already knew him, so to speak.

This means that in season 7, Buffy should have been a hell of lot more cautious than she was with Spike, as ultimately she was pretty much dealing with a stranger, someone she hadn't really encountered before, so she had no idea of what he was capable of.

But couldn't that same logic then be applied to Wood? She had no knowledge whatsoever of him before his coming to Sunnydale and no reason whatsoever to trust him, even after he told her who he truly was and why he was in Sunnydale. Aside from s short initial bit of suspicion, she invited him into her home, introduced him to her friends and the Potentials, and pretty much gave him free run of the place. I know that this thread is about Spike, not Wood, but I also think that the comparison to be a valid argument.

I think that in both cases, Buffy was going with what could be called instinct, a gut feeling, Slayer intuition (if such a thing exists), or just the rather innocent belief that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. At least in Spike's case, he was at Xander's apartment, where she probably felt that the chip kept him safe, or, later, when he DID appear to be a threat, chained in Buffy's basement until he was taken by the Bringers. With Wood, Buffy had nothing whatsoever to convince her that he was in any way trustworthy except for seeing him dust a couple of vampires in an alley and believing his story about being the son of a Slayer.

Trusting Spike, or Wood, was a risk that Buffy probably shouldn't have taken under the circumstances, I fully acknowledge that, but the fact remains that, in these two cases at least, her actions were the correct ones, as far as she was concerned.

 

[Kana]

Well it's all a bit academic because Buffy has treated both Angel and Spike as if they have respective 'continued consciousnesses' regardless of whether they have a soul or not.

In Amends, Buffy refers to the awful things Angel did to her and she doesn't separate him from Angelus.

Buffy: (crying) And I hate it! I hate that it's *so* hard... and that
you can hurt me *so* much. (sobs, then harshly) I know everything that
you did, because you did it to me.

In Season 7....

Buffy: You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

Frankly that wouldn't make sense if SoullessSpike and SoulledSpike were separate individuals. The guy she's talking to, is the guy who fought to get a soul at least as far as Buffy is concerned.

 

[The Bronze]

I think there's an option missing on this poll. My vote goes to the missing fifth option - Spike doesn't have a redemption arc. Spike's story from season 1-3 is that of a regular vampire. Kill, feed, fight etc. He does what he wants when he wants. Season 4-6 is a story of survival and adaption. He's forced into a new situation by the initiative. The vast majority of things he was doing he is now incapable of. So he comes up with a plan to survive and from there tries to make the best of his lot. He likes fighting so he starts fighting demons, best of a bad situation.

Season 7 and onwards is nothing to do with redemption. It's a journey for William to find his place in the world. His soul has returned to the world after a century or more away. He's left with the memories of what the demon has done in his absence. He initially can't cope with these, his mind is full of faces that have been hurt by his hands.

He learns to live with this and accept that he wasn't present at the time and as horrible as the memories are there was nothing he could do. From then on it's all about figuring out what to do with himself. There's no blue print for what to do as a vampire with a soul. He has no identity. No home, no money, no job, no family. So far he has chosen to help fight the good fight. Not because he needs to redeem himself but because he has the ability to do so and he wants to do the right thing, to help people.

Hopefully his journey will continue and he'll be able to carve out a real life for himself. Angel has shown that a souled vampire can achieve perfect happiness. The people of the buffyverse are currently aware of the supernatural. That means there's no barrier to Spike making a happy life for himself whilst fighting the good fight.

 

[ladydorotea]

Well it's all a bit academic because Buffy has treated both Angel and Spike as if they have respective 'continued consciousnesses' regardless of whether they have a soul or not.

In Amends, Buffy refers to the awful things Angel did to her and she doesn't separate him from Angelus.

Buffy: (crying) And I hate it! I hate that it's *so* hard... and that
you can hurt me *so* much. (sobs, then harshly) I know everything that
you did, because you did it to me.

In Season 7....

Buffy: You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

Frankly that wouldn't make sense if SoullessSpike and SoulledSpike were separate individuals. The guy she's talking to, is the guy who fought to get a soul at least as far as Buffy is concerned.

It has to be mentioned though that Buffy has a tendency to say things - especially when overtaken by compassion and especially to Spike in S7 - that she does not really mean... as later events prove unequivocally. She has her weaknesses, and being carried away is one of her MO's. Also, let's not forget her quite recent clinical depression and the need to feel better now about the whole ''using you' thing and being almost raped as result. Also, let's not forget about her need to make sure that Spike sticks to his 'better man' guns and stays and fights as her ' strongest fighter' . Where she to hypothetically tell him to go away - would not it hurt her case in the face of overwhelming odds? S7 Buffy was written to be less of a person and more of a general fighting the big fight , as much as it diluted the chapter, she was supposedly ready to sacrifice Dawn etc. Who is to say she was not ready to shift the truth just a little?

 

[SiegePerilous02]

But couldn't that same logic then be applied to Wood? She had no knowledge whatsoever of him before his coming to Sunnydale and no reason whatsoever to trust him, even after he told her who he truly was and why he was in Sunnydale. Aside from s short initial bit of suspicion, she invited him into her home, introduced him to her friends and the Potentials, and pretty much gave him free run of the place. I know that this thread is about Spike, not Wood, but I also think that the comparison to be a valid argument.

I agree that she maybe shouldn't have extended trust to Wood so quickly. Maybe she should have verified the backstory he told her with Giles first before allowing him into the fold (I don't believe Giles found out until LMPTM, been a while since I watched it).

But that's quite a bit different than too quickly learning to trust a man who looks just like the demon who almost raped you. Ensouled Spike isn't technically the same entity, but he has the same face, and the same hands that pinned her down. Just being around him should have triggered more discomfort on her part than it did. She's a little jumpy around him in the first few episodes of the season, but that's about it. Wood was sketchy at first, but that that pales in comparison to what soulless Spike had done.

And she at least saw the school therapist in season 3 to discuss her boyfriend troubles. It was way too brief, but it was something, and I would have liked something more extensive in season 7 for the Spike situation.

I see your logic, and agree with it to a certain extent, but there is a bit of a difference here. If you consider a souled vampire and a none souled vampire to be separate entities, as I do, and I think you may do? Then Buffy had never actually met the Spike who appears in season 7, and she had no reason to trust him, other than the 'good' actions he did with a chip, which obviously don't count.

The difference with Angel, is that from Buffy's point of view, she knew him prior to his second bout of soulessness, which to her would have been his first, so during his second bout of soulhaving, she already knew him, so to speak.

This means that in season 7, Buffy should have been a hell of lot more cautious than she was with Spike, as ultimately she was pretty much dealing with a stranger, someone she hadn't really encountered before, so she had no idea of what he was capable of. Plenty of people with souls are bad, Buffy had no real evidence that Spike with a soul was a good person. The scoobies may have been prejudice, but I think their stance was more appropriate than Buffy's I trust you 'cos I feel like I can, although, personally I would have maybe been more open to giving Spike an opportunity to prove himself than the scoobs were, but then again his 'body' didn't try and rape my friend, so who knows.

All of this. There's also the matter of the trigger, which they learn about in "Sleeper" and then wait until "Lies" before they do anything about it. Buffy stated she trusted Spike, but that didn't amount to much: he was still taken over by the First and he attacked Andrew and Dawn on two separate occasions. He eventually solved the problem, but it had nothing to do with Buffy's efforts, and only happened because of Giles and Wood's scheme. Her instincts weren't exactly proven wrong, but I wouldn't call it a glowing endorsement either.

 

[thetopher]

But couldn't that same logic then be applied to Wood? She had no knowledge whatsoever of him before his coming to Sunnydale and no reason whatsoever to trust him, even after he told her who he truly was and why he was in Sunnydale. Aside from s short initial bit of suspicion, she invited him into her home, introduced him to her friends and the Potentials, and pretty much gave him free run of the place. I know that this thread is about Spike, not Wood, but I also think that the comparison to be a valid argument.

I think that in both cases, Buffy was going with what could be called instinct, a gut feeling, Slayer intuition (if such a thing exists), or just the rather innocent belief that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. At least in Spike's case, he was at Xander's apartment, where she probably felt that the chip kept him safe, or, later, when he DID appear to be a threat, chained in Buffy's basement until he was taken by the Bringers. With Wood, Buffy had nothing whatsoever to convince her that he was in any way trustworthy except for seeing him dust a couple of vampires in an alley and believing his story about being the son of a Slayer.

Trusting Spike, or Wood, was a risk that Buffy probably shouldn't have taken under the circumstances, I fully acknowledge that, but the fact remains that, in these two cases at least, her actions were the correct ones, as far as she was concerned.

But Buffy doesn't trust Wood, not really, right up until 'First Date' when he helps her fight off an ambush is she wary of him. Only then does she begin to trust him, because he's earned a chance.

Buffy trusted Spike before the attempted rape, she thought of him as somebody who loved her, she misjudged him and paid for it.
Afterwards its clear that soulled Spike still has those same feelings for Buffy, he's still devoted to her, so logically, why couldn't he try the same thing again?- I mean he's clearly crazy/unstable, seeing visions of her as The First lies to him.
What if the First had done what it had done to Angel and said 'she wants you to take her.' Would Spike really resist that? I somehow doubt it.
Buffy trusting him is a bad call, just because it 'all works out in the end' is a weak argument for character motivation.
You might as well say well Buffy never staked evil Spike because she knew that one day he'd fall in love with her and go on to become her 'strongest warrior' or some other nonsense..

 

[white avenger]

But Buffy doesn't trust Wood, not really, right up until 'First Date' when he helps her fight off an ambush is she wary of him. Only then does she begin to trust him, because he's earned a chance.

Buffy trusted Spike before the attempted rape, she thought of him as somebody who loved her, she misjudged him and paid for it.
Afterwards its clear that soulled Spike still has those same feelings for Buffy, he's still devoted to her, so logically, why couldn't he try the same thing again?- I mean he's clearly crazy/unstable, seeing visions of her as The First lies to him.
What if the First had done what it had done to Angel and said 'she wants you to take her.' Would Spike really resist that? I somehow doubt it.
Buffy trusting him is a bad call, just because it 'all works out in the end' is a weak argument for character motivation.
You might as well say well Buffy never staked evil Spike because she knew that one day he'd fall in love with her and go on to become her 'strongest warrior' or some other nonsense..

Trusting anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, is a risk. Certainly, in Buffy's case, under those conditions, that risk was far greater, and we saw, at the beginning, before she knew about his soul, that Buffy trusted Spike very little, if at all, and was suspicious about his motives in wanting to help her. She couldn't even bear to touch him, and that didn't stop even after she learned about his soul. She saw him as a new man, deserving of a chance to prove himself, but not much more than that. She still had some feelings of mistrust, as illustrated by her still flinching when Spike touched her in Xander's apartment. Quite likely, the reason why she had him move in with Xander was that she knew the chip would keep Xander safe, whereas it wouldn't do the same for her. When she learned that he was killing again, she was ready to destroy him.

I don't think that Buffy's actual unconditional trust in Spike began until after she was being held by the vampires in the basement, when he had every opportunity to kill her and didn't. It was only after that that Buffy told Spike that she understood what he had risked to become a better man, and that she saw that better man in him.

So ensouled Spike actually did earn, or regain, depending on your point of view, Buffy's trust, just as surely as Wood did. He had her life in his hands and he still didn't kill her.

That also illustrates that Spike actually was capable of resisting the First's commands, at least to a degree, exactly the same as Angel had. He was under the First's influence in he basement, when he was supposed to kill, or possibly turn Buffy, but didn't.

 

[thetopher]

Trusting anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, is a risk. Certainly, in Buffy's case, under those conditions, that risk was far greater, and we saw, at the beginning, before she knew about his soul, that Buffy trusted Spike very little, if at all, and was suspicious about his motives in wanting to help her. She couldn't even bear to touch him, and that didn't stop even after she learned about his soul. She saw him as a new man, deserving of a chance to prove himself, but not much more than that. She still had some feelings of mistrust, as illustrated by her still flinching when Spike touched her in Xander's apartment. Quite likely, the reason why she had him move in with Xander was that she knew the chip would keep Xander safe, whereas it wouldn't do the same for her. When she learned that he was killing again, she was ready to destroy him.

I don't think that Buffy's actual unconditional trust in Spike began until after she was being held by the vampires in the basement, when he had every opportunity to kill her and didn't. It was only after that that Buffy told Spike that she understood what he had risked to become a better man, and that she saw that better man in him.

So ensouled Spike actually did earn, or regain, depending on your point of view, Buffy's trust, just as surely as Wood did. He had her life in his hands and he still didn't kill her.

That also illustrates that Spike actually was capable of resisting the First's commands, at least to a degree, exactly the same as Angel had. He was under the First's influence in he basement, when he was supposed to kill, or possibly turn Buffy, but didn't.

Personally I think she went back to trusting Spike way too easily and way too soon. This was the face of somebody who tried to rape her, and all we get is one or two moments of hesitation from her. The same emotions/feelings in Spike were still there, he still loved her deeply, and by now Buffy knows that having a soul doesn't mean that your not capable of murder (I think that finally sunk in after Warren.)
Angel had been fighting his demonic urges on and off for a hundred years, I think Buffy could trust him a little more than a mentally unstable basement dweller, there really is no comparison between them.

And after she found out tha tSpike was prone to murderous rages she still let him wander around freely, unchained, even though she knew that the chip was no longer effective when his trigger was active.

But you do raise an intesting point, Spike could resist the First, when he wanted too, I guess it's too bad that he didn't do it while murdering and turning all those dozens of people, huh?

 

[white avenger]

Angel had been fighting his demonic urges on and off for a hundred years, I think Buffy could trust him a little more than a mentally unstable basement dweller, there really is no comparison between them.

And after she found out that Spike was prone to murderous rages she still let him wander around freely, unchained, even though she knew that the chip was no longer effective when his trigger was active.

But you do raise an intesting point, Spike could resist the First, when he wanted too, I guess it's too bad that he didn't do it while murdering and turning all those dozens of people, huh?

There may not be any comparison between Angel after 100 years of living with a soul and Spike having done the same thing for only a few months at best for you, but apparently there was for Buffy, and I do agree that trusting him that soon was a risk, but either Buffy didn't see that difference, or believed that she would be able to handle whatever happened. I don't necessarily agree, I'm only pointing out what she probably thought, if she even thought about it at all.

After Buffy found out that Spike was killing again, she chained him in the basement, which is where he was when the Bringers took him. Afterward, Spike chained himself up down there unless Buffy was with him.

And though this is getting to the point of defending Spike, which I refuse to do anymore, I will point out that Spike was able to resist the Fiest Evil's directions once he knew that something was trying to control him. Prior to that, he had no memory of anything that he did when the trigger was activated, or that anyhing like the trigger even existed.