Spike got lamer when he loved buffy?

MergedLoki

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Alright now i love spike he's my fav. btvs character.

but it just seems when he's evil and souless and with drew (S2) he's just much BETTER at confrontation, like i'm talking fighting/combat etc.

S4+ yes he's got the chip so he can't hurt humans but still there's plenty of time's where he'll go in to attack some demon or whatever and it's like watching a blonde xander rush in there. a few ineffective jabs and he's thrown against a table or something.

not all the time but, obviously enough time's that i've noticed it.

just curious if anyone else noticed this and has any ideas/reasoning's as to why that might be?

or am i just crazy and seeing thing's that aren't there? lol
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Nah, Spike's still a skilled fighter in Season 7.
Yes.

I never 'got' how he realized he was in love with Buffy in the first place. Because of that sex dream? For serious? Anyway, I ended up liking him much better post-Buffy.
 
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MergedLoki
agreed, i've been reading some of the comics and yea spike (even tho he's 'good') seems much more his old self lol
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Eleftheria
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Sometimes it's like that. You can't see what's in front of you, because you're in denial, and then one day it's like BAM you realize it. It hits you in the face.
I think he probably had sex dreams about Buffy before Out Of My Mind. That episode was probably the first time his dream self said "I love you" to Buffy. I mean, his very first time watching Buffy (dancing) showed his attraction and that lust grew each season. He didn't want to believe until that dream that it was more than lust and obsession and admiration.

I think his fighting in the later seasons had to still be pretty good if he could go up against Buffy the way he did in Smashed. And in Spiral when he catches the sword with his hands.

There were times that I didn't buy the "softness" of Spike though. I rolled my eyes when he brought flowers after Joyce's death because "she didn't treat me like a freak" and "she was a nice lady". Or in Blood Ties when Buffy confronts him in his crpyt (she came off awesome), his dialogue was awful. Same later in the ep when they are looking for Dawn.
 
The answer is definitely yes. Spike can bring the humorous aspect in the show but I respected and liked him more when he was evil, or in Angel s5 cause simply...there was no Buffy mentioning.

He hated the Slayer, I would never believe that in s2, when he saw her dancing he started feeling lust for her. He loved(if that's the right word for someone without a soul) Drusilla. That was a real feeling. Waking up one day, because of a sex dream, doesn't make you fall in love.He always wanted to kill her.This is just my opinion. It seemed weird to me. After that, Spike's downfall occured. The sexbot? really? stealing her clothes? Spying on her and Riley? uggh! Even in Smashed when he realised that he could hurt her, he wanted to kill her or beat her up. Is this love?

I hated the scene(was it s5?) that Drusilla blames Spike for having the Slayer on is mind. It's ridiculous to shoot such a scene to convince us that Spike never stopped thinking of Buffy.

About his fighting...I think he had always been strong. I never saw any change in his skills.
 
white avenger
white avenger
I never saw any hatred by Spike for Buffy. I got the feeling that he considered himself the predator and her the most challenging prey.
James Marsters went on record saying that he always played Spike as having an attraction for Buffy and that the scene in the Bronze in School Hard was part Spike and part him simply being turned on watching Sarah dance.

Spike was pretty pathetic when it came to his love for Drusilla as well. She openly cheated on him with Angelus, The Immortal, and a bunch of demons. He got her a diamond necklace for Valentines Day while Angelus got her the ripped out heart of a shopgirl. He cried and got drunk when she left him and was going to resort to a love spell to get her back before realizing that someone like Dru responds better to violence.

Spike didn't want to kill Buffy in Smashed.
 
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MergedLoki
that's spike tho. he's completely 110% devoted to the woman in his life. it's his lil.. i dunno. thing. his mother, then dru, n then (eventually) buffy.
I know that James said that, I just don't really believe it. Well, I guess it's because vampires always have those weird feelings about their enemies. Especially Slayers. I guess passion for violence can be erotic to them or something. That goes for Angelus as well.

Yeah but Dru was insane and Spike knew that.Her actions are not exactly logical.Plus it wasn't the first time Angelus was taking advantage of Dru.And yeat Spike kept wanting her. He felt for her.

In Smashed I think his initial purpose was not to bring the house down due to a sexathon. I think he wanted to beat Buffy up. "You came back wrong"...that is a humiliating thing to say. The moment he realises he can actually hurt her now, after all of this time, he chooses to have a fight with her.
 
He told her she came back wrong because she called him an evil, soulless thing. He wanted to hurt her because she hurt him. She said he was beneath her, hit him whenever she felt like it, mocked his romantic feelings for her, and would deck him simply for touching her arm. He wanted to shake her up. If she had showed signs of having feelings for him he would never have wanted to bring her down a few pegs (not that I agree with him in Smashed) to prove himself. "Just because she's lost means I'm supposed to be too?" It is like in Crush when he was going to stake Drusilla if Buffy would give him even the slightest sign that she had romantic feelings for him and when she doesn't do that he changes the situation to threatening to let Drusilla kill her if she doesn't admit to having feelings for him.
 
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Eleftheria
I respect your opinion. But I really felt sorry for Dru when he wanted to stake her. I felt it was out of Spike's character. IMO, the truest feelings he had for a woman were for Dru...anyway...
I must say yes. I loved him in S2. He was so refreshing, different and funny. And when he was moaning over Dru, it was kinda funny, they made it funny, Chaos demon and all the drinking and being attracted by Willow's neck. When he got chiped, he was funny, not being able to bite people and wanting to kill himself. He and Anya were a thing show needed at the time. S5 was ok, but S6 it became sooooo.. well, lame.
 
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Eleftheria
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I disagree, lol. Spike was always pretty lame, evil or not, in love with Buffy or not.

This quote from a meta-writer sums it up pretty well, IMO:

To me, Spike is the biggest loser on the show. The entire point of Spike for me is that that "coolness" you're talking about? Is all an act, and that he's painfully, painfully, painfully aware at all times that if you strip away Nikki's jacket and the peroxide and the scar, he's still William, sitting in that Victorian drawing room, getting rejected. Spike is the ultimate outsider on a show about outsiders. He's not cool, he knows it, and one of the things I love about the Scoobies is that they know it, too (they see right through him, and it's fantastic). Yes, he's a giant loser who somehow, sometimes manages to convince others (and himself) that he is, in fact, a badass. Even rarer (but more awesome) are the times when he really is a badass and exudes it for all to see.

This is the point of "Fool for Love," but if you go back to the earlier seasons, you'll see that those clues were there all along. He's a whipped boyfriend (I hate that phrase, but that's how our society would phrase it) who gets beat up by the Slayer's mom, makes a deal with his worst enemy to save his own skin, takes off like a coward, comes back drunk and sniveling, and then gets emasculated by the Initiative. Loooo-ser.

I will agree with you that the writers did force him where he didn't necessarily fit in S4: he's got some fun stuff going on, but it doesn't quite work because they don't take they chip seriously; they treat him as comedic relief. It doesn't entirely work, and I don't blame you at all for feeling that it was forced. (On the DVDs, James Marsters straight-up says, "They tried to make me Cordelia, and it didn't work.")

But I've always been confused by the idea that character development is a bad thing, that a character should stay static and not develop. I mean, Lilah Morgan (my personal fav on Angel) is a villain but becomes incredibly complex. If they'd tried to redeem her, I wouldn't have complained; I would have thought it was fantastic (they sort of did the same thing with Darla, who I also love).

I'm also really confused by the idea that they had to come up with stuff for him to do. That's what they have to do with every character. Again, I agree that the chip didn't work well in S4, and I'm not so crazy about the pawn of the First in S7, but other than that, I think it all works really, really well.

When I was watching OOMM for the first time and Spike has the whole "I love you" dream, I went: "DUH!" And smacked my forehead. Because of course Spike's in love with Buffy. Of course he is. It made perfect sense to me. So I didn't see that as grasping for straws at all. It fit perfectly into my view of who he is, that he would fall in love with this strong, smart, fierce woman who is so far "above him." That's what he does. He needs someone to latch onto in that way.

I also disagree about S7, a season that has so many ridiculous weaknesses (but that I love since I love the characterizations of Buffy and Spike and Dawn and Anya). Why is it Spike's fault if the writers had run out of things to do with Xander by that time (I can think of a number of things they could have done with him, but they never asked me) but still had things to say about Spike? I think if you go back and watch the season, you'll see that Spike actually doesn't take over the show: he doesn't have more scenes than anyone else; his writing is just better.

his final sacrifice to stop the uber-vamps was his final "look how cool I am" speech. And again, I disagree: to me it's: "Look how far I've come." With Spike, the important word is "Real." Very little that he has or is is actually real. So that's why "Intervention" is so important; that's why the soul is so important; that's why "Chosen" is so important: because finally, finally he's found something that's real and his. After searching for it since he was alive. He thought it was what Drusilla offered him in the stable in 1880, but that wasn't it. "Chosen" was it. There's a reason that he's (literally) "effulgent" in that scene.

-Source (user Lirazel): Here

Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything she wrote, there. I love Spike both pre- and post-Buffy loving. Why is his character developing a bad thing? And I can't see how anyone can say he became one-dimensional in the later seasons, at all. He's one of the most developed characters on the show.
 
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Vengeance
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Summerlilly
I actually love the fact that if you strip it all away, there's just William. Makes him more real...
I thought Spike was less one-dimensional when he fell for Buffy, though he never seemed particularly one-dimensional to me.
 
I'm not sure if one-dimensional is quite the right word. More like one-motivational. Everything he did or said in the later seasons centred around Buffy. He became a very simplistic character, because he didn't have any thoughts, actions or motivations that didn't revolve around Buffy. They even retconned his past actions to be centred around Buffy (ie. stopping Angelus in Becoming).

His storyline was, in essence, the age-old "bad boy turns good for the love of a good woman" trope that we've seen many times before. He was much more interesting when he was evil for the mere fact that he was evil. It was very different and refreshing to see an evil man in a group of good guys, exploring the reasons why an evil thing would do good. The Buffy-loving/redemption arc was a very easy direction for the writers to take.

Not to mention the fact that his character in S7 was basically Angel, but with bleached hair and more jerkass-ness.
 
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InsaneMystic
I so, SO disagree with your last sentence!!! :p
He certainly became several levels less interesting once he fell for Buffy, at least to me he did. In saying that though,he clearly behaved in much the same with when he fell for Dru, only difference is he revelled in his evildom with Dru, with Buffy he changed everything about who he was to try and make her love him. Spike casts a rather pathetic figure when you think about it. He seems to construct a new persona everytime he has someone new to worship. Have we ever seen him be himself at all?
 
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Eleftheria
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white avenger
white avenger
Don't beat around the bush, Miss K. If you don't like the guy, just say that you don't like the guy.
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Gotham
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Yeah it's very interesting how Spike sponges his personality off of what he thinks other people would 'want' him to be. I made a nice argument about this like... last year, but if you think about it the whole time we see him he's trying to be what he thinks other people want. First he wants to be the perfect son for his mother. Then with Dru he decides to be devil-may-care evil. With Buffy he tries to be a hero like she wants. Even on Angel S5, for all his whining about hating Angel he sure seems to follow Angels blue prints pretty carefully.

I really like the concept of Spike still being that whiny poet on the inside trying desperately to put up false fronts so no one notices. Adds an awesome dimension to his character.
 
Kean
Kean
I personally think we have yet to meet the real William
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Eleftheria
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Kelsey
Agreed! Very insightful.
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TheFirstSlayer
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Summerlilly
Good point
Oh god yes!

It was like a maths equation, for every 1 episode that passed, Spike got 1 point lamer.

He started out so cool, but once he fell for Buffy he became incredibility boring IMO.
 
K
Kelsey
Well, you know I don't agree with your opinion... at all. But your signature is pretty awesome!
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TheFirstSlayer
[No message]
Yeah it's very interesting how Spike sponges his personality off of what he thinks other people would 'want' him to be.

I really like the concept of Spike still being that whiny poet on the inside trying desperately to put up false fronts so no one notices. Adds an awesome dimension to his character.

What you refer to as "sponging" might be better described as an attempt to fit into whatever society that he finds himself in, a trait that he shares in one degree or another with every man, woman, and child on this planet. We all do that at one time or another, to one degree or another. If we didn't have that adaptability, we would never be able to survive the changes in our environment or society.
 
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thevikingsgirl
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What you refer to as "sponging" might be better described as an attempt to fit into whatever society that he finds himself in, a trait that he shares in one degree or another with every man, woman, and child on this planet. We all do that at one time or another, to one degree or another. If we didn't have that adaptability, we would never be able to survive the changes in our environment or society.

Maybe adapting ourselves into different societies is something we are all guilty of, it doesn't mean that it makes Spike an admirable character for doing so.And I don't want to put words in Wesley's mouth but I read his post as being more about the fact that Spike moulds himself depending on who he's trying to impress be it Angelus, Dru, Buffy...which I agree with.

As to the original, yes, absolutely, as far as I'm concerned. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in Spike post season four. He lost so much of the character he was up until that point and while he still had some 'comedy' moments they were generally cheap shot one liners that paled in comparison to his former glory.

But as with most aspects of the show, it's the early years I prefer, Spike included.
 
white avenger agrees: Don't beat around the bush, Miss K. If you don't like the guy, just say that you don't like the guy.

I'm not beating around any bush. I've made it abundantly clear on several occassions that I don't like Spike. That isn't a secret. However, what I have also not made a secret of is my belief that every persona we have seen of Spike has been a construct. That he has created character to compliment what he believes is wanted by the person he is in love with/idolises. And I have also said several times that I believe we have yet to meet the real "William", whoever he may be.
 
Maybe adapting ourselves into different societies is something we are all guilty of, it doesn't mean that it makes Spike an admirable character for doing so.And I don't want to put words in Wesley's mouth but I read his post as being more about the fact that Spike molds himself depending on who he's trying to impress be it Angelus, Dru, Buffy...which I agree with.

.

I didn't mean to imply that that adaptability is particularly admirable as much as it is an aspect of human nature, and as such, difficult, if not downright impossible to escape. Every character on the show adapted and changed over the course of the 7 years from "Welcome To The Hellmouth" to "Chosen." Granted, Spike's change was probably more drastic than most, but the change from the former cheerleader who first came to Sunnydale to the "Last Guardian Of The Hellmouth" was also pretty drastic, as was the change from drunken lout Liam to champion Angel; timid little bookworms Willow and Fred to, respectively. super witch and hell god; airhead Cordelia to hero and higher being Cordy; Junior Watcher and rogue demon hunter Wesley to kick a** pistol packing Wes; from street thug to super lawyer Gunn;and from almost silly librarian to dangerous and downright frightening Giles; and let's not forget basically one step up from comedy relief to bad guy commando and guy who sees everything despite having only one eye Xander. All of the characters on the shows, with the exception, maybe, of Willie the bartender, evolved, changed, adapted to new situations and environments. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have survived.

The only really permanent thing in life is change, and that is reflected perfectly in the development and changes of all of these characters. That change is, at least to me, one of the most interesting aspects of the show. Without that change, there would have been only stagnation and boredom, and "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" wouldn't have lasted past the initial 12 episodes.

The thing about Spike that I find most interesting is his evolution from Season 2 through Season 7, and on into Season 5 of "Angel." He isn't static, he isn't stagnant, he most certainly isn't boring, and I have never seen anything "lame" about him.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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StarSlayer
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