Spike got lamer when he loved buffy?

Perhaps it isn't that he got "Lamer" when he fell in love with Buffy as much as that we got to know him better when he fell in love with him, and some of us just don't like Spike's real personality. Think about it: Back when Spike appeared to be "Bad", he was really just a Big Bad, like Glory or Caleb or Adam. But once he fell in love with Buffy, we started really getting to know him. He was around a lot more and interacted with our characters a lot more, there was less of a facade, we got to see his past, there were entire episodes dedicated to getting to know Spike, etc.

Some of us love how complex Spike is. Some of us find Spike with a weaker facade to just be lame. Either way. 😀
 
S
StarSlayer
Great point in that we got to know him better!
Did Spike get lamer? I don't know. As people have already stated there is an element of consistency to Spike's character and I'm a viewer who likes consistency.

People often talk about change and development in character but I love looking at traits that exist throughout a character arc, traits that inform the development. That to me is what makes an individual, either fictional or real, who they are.

For example many talk about how Angel and Spike became better people after meeting the Slayer but how and why they became better people is vastly different and more inherent to their individual personalities.

My perhaps crude summary was that Angel became a better person because of Buffy, however Spike became a better person for Buffy.

Compare the two:

Angel: I want to help, I want to become someone.

Spike: I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted.

Neither is more noble per se but it gives us an insight. Part of Spike's ambgiuity was his humanity and capacity for love even without a soul. However it seems that morality on a larger scale was not really on his mind. The virtue arises from his love for the girl and his determination to fulfil what he believes is their wish or desire. However because of Buffy's wavering morality in Season 6, Spike didn't have much of a compass to work with and hence he began to have identity issues. Spike has always been very, 'external'. The jacket, the look, the accent, even his deeds to a degree. Unlike Angelus, evil was more a fashion statement, or ego trip for Spike than a belief system, so it actually doesn't suprise me that much that it would be easier for him to turn his back on it for love. Spike always, almost canonically has believed in love more than evil anyway, so you do the maths.

I always liked Spike but more than anything I like character consistency and based upon what others have said and what I believe Spike's changes are based upon on what sort of individual he is.

To me development isn't just about change, it's about establishing the reasoning behind the character. Spike being the good looking bad boy with a heart, is superficial. Explaining where his capacity for love came from and how far it would take him, establishes a character rather than a caricature.
 
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dan k
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great great post. I agree.
white avenger
white avenger
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StarSlayer
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I like him way better once he falls for Buffy - he's more complex, he challenges all the established ideas of what a vampire is in the Buffyverse, he develops beyond a one-dimentional villian (if he was ever that) or light weight comedy relief. I love the character development and growth that the writer's gave him in season five and beyond.
 
I suppose you could make an argument for him becoming a bit lamer but personally i enjoyed Spike throughout the series. In the early part of the show he was this evil, humourous killer who was obsessed with Buffy. As the season's progress he realizes that obsession constitutes love and he ends up becoming devoted to her.

Personally i don't think his obsession with Buffy was a bad thing. I liked how the dynamic changed between them, thought it was riveting stuff. From hating the guy Buffy ended up loving him and they season 7's success is mainly down due to their relationship developing and being interesting to watch.

Spike was always a bit lame but that was just him. He was lame around Dru, always needing her and the same could be said with Buffy. He came across as a needy person but that was his appeal. He wasn't like every other vampire. No other vampire had a wit like Spike. He retained many elements of his human personality and that's why i love him as a character.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
So true. Any scene between Spike and Buffy is fascinating.
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
You reminded me of Intervention. "You are one needy little bloodsucker"
I'm just...so sick of fans who think Spike was more interesting bad. I mean, come on. Give the character some more credit than that. He deserves to evolve as well. He's not a disposable character, and shouldn't be treated as such.

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

I think he probably had sex dreams about Buffy before Out Of My Mind. That episode was probably the first time his dream self said "I love you" to Buffy. I mean, his very first time watching Buffy (dancing) showed his attraction and that lust grew each season. He didn't want to believe until that dream that it was more than lust and obsession and admiration.
I agree. The dream in OOMM was the first one we saw, but it certainly wasn't the first time he'd had that dream or something similar. I believe Spike had feelings for Buffy from the first time he saw her.

I think his fighting in the later seasons had to still be pretty good if he could go up against Buffy the way he did in Smashed. And in Spiral when he catches the sword with his hands.
I agree. He really held in own in 'Smashed.' Any other vampire would have been beaten to a pulp in the same situation. Also, she does beat him a messy, nasty condition in 'Dead Things.' And he was alright the next day, all things considered. He was well enough to show up to her birthday party.

In fact,now that I think about it, I think his fighting skills increased as the show progressed. In 'Intervention', he's so messed up by the beating he gets from Glory that he has Xander take him home, right? He's like, passed out in his crypt and can hardly sit up when the "Buffybot" comes to visit him. He's also WAY more bruised.

There were times that I didn't buy the "softness" of Spike though. I rolled my eyes when he brought flowers after Joyce's death because "she didn't treat me like a freak" and "she was a nice lady". Or in Blood Ties when Buffy confronts him in his crpyt (she came off awesome), his dialogue was awful. Same later in the ep when they are looking for Dawn.
I don't think it was OOC when he brought flowers for Joyce. Despite being evil, he had respect for Joyce, that was clear.

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

I really like the concept of Spike still being that whiny poet on the inside trying desperately to put up false fronts so no one notices.
Shane, you're on to something here. At his heart, Spike is a poser - always has been. I don't know what he's up too now because I don't read the IDW comics, but I've been told he's his "own" man now, making his own decisions, and allowing himself to be dictated and controlled by no one but himself. If this is true, that's great. Nevertheless, Spike is a survivor. He adapts to whatever situation he's in, and that trait is one of the reasons he's been alive so long.

The thing about Spike that I find most interesting is his evolution from Season 2 through Season 7, and on into Season 5 of "Angel." He isn't static, he isn't stagnant, he most certainly isn't boring, and I have never seen anything "lame" about him.
Couldn't agree more.
 
Joan said:
I'm just...so sick of fans who think Spike was more interesting bad. I mean, come on. Give the character some more credit than that. He deserves to evolve as well. He's not a disposable character, and shouldn't be treated as such.

I'm going to choose to be offended by this. To me this reads that you have just completely dismissed mine, and many other posters point of view, because it doesn't mesh with yours. No fan is under any obligation to like Spike, or any other character for that matter. I've "read the text" the same as you have and my interpretation is just as valid as yours.

What any of these characters deserve is up for debate, there certainly isn't any fact involved in it, only opinion.
 
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GrrArghx
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Fair enough. I was just venting, it had nothing to do with you.
I'm just...so sick of fans who think Spike was more interesting bad. I mean, come on. Give the character some more credit than that. He deserves to evolve as well. He's not a disposable character, and shouldn't be treated as such.

And I get kinda sick of not being allowed to dislike Spike, lol. 😉

Like Kean said, we are just as entitled to prefer bad Spike and not like 'good' Spike. Just like I don't get upset over people saying Angel was only interesting on BtVS when he was Angelus. I may not agree with it but it's someone else's opinion and not a conscious decision to devalue a character. 🙂
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
You're right...I hadn't thought about it that way.
Again, I stand by my stance of Spike being a more interesting and entertaining character early on. I thought his "development" actually simplified his character - his love for Buffy gave him a one-size-fits-all motivation - his love for Dru was a far more interesting character trait for me as it added another dimension to his character without completely overwhelming it. I thought that episodes like LMPTM, which woobified his character, made him far less interesting - sometimes characters are more likeable when they're hardass jerks, not when they're sympathetic little woobies. The very fact that Spike was evil and a bit of a jerk, yet still likeable, in itself made him a very interesting character.

Nobody's saying Spike shouldn't be allowed to evolve and develop. I just thought that his development was rubbish, and made him a less entertaining character in my eyes.
 
yea I like spike he's my fav character.

I just vastly prefer 'bad' spike to good spike.

this could possibly be b/c i love the spike/dru relationship over ANY of the others in the buffyverse. so yea im biased but so what? lol. we all are 😛

and spike 'bad' was never one dimensional. as we see from the flashbacks to his past when he was still a souless vamp. in the 1800's etc. (and also if you read the graphic novels)
 
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GrrArghx
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Nobody's saying Spike shouldn't be allowed to evolve and develop. I just thought that his development was rubbish, and made him a less entertaining character in my eyes.

I totally agree with this.

Once he fell for Buffy he became quite flat as a character to me, completely two-dimensional, driven by one thing... to me that made him boring.
 
If Spike is considered "lamer" as he becomes, progressively, informant, reluctant ally, comrade-in-arms, hero, and finally, Champion, couldn't we say pretty much the same thing about Angelus, once he became Angel? (Calm down, Bangels, I'm not attacking your hero, only trying to make a point)

The villain is, if portrayed properly, almost always more interesting than the hero, simply because he is more mysterious, more sinister, and just plain more fun to watch. Batman in downright boring compared to the Joker. Superman has a superhero sized stick up up his Kryptonian a**, but Lex Luthor is downright fascinating. The cowboy hero rescues the rancher's daughter simply because he IS the cowboy hero. Black Bart, on the other hand, has specific reasons for wanting to force the rancher to sign over the deed to his ranch, and without those reasons, the cowboy hero might just as well ride on back into the sunset.

Those who consider Spike's progressive evolution from Big Bad to Champion as increasing lame-ness do have something of a point in the fact that, once Spike decides to impress and become closer to Buffy, that becomes arguably his single motivation for the rest of the show. No more plotting to kill the Slayer and take over Sunnydale. No more Gem of Amara. No more alliance with a cyborg super soldier. All we have is a vampire with romantic interests in a Slayer, and that's just about his entire motivation through to the end of the series. That, to some people is considered "lame."

Speaking only for myself, I see more to Spike than that one simple motivation, mainly because I made the decision to look for, find, and appreciate the more subtle changes in the character, his interaction with Buffy, Willow, Xander, and the others. I like the way that James portrayed him, the way that he slowly evolved from "Saturday night is when I kill you," to, "You're THE ONE, Buffy." I see things new and interesting in Spike in every episode that he appeared in. He wasn't always admirable, but, as contradictory as this might seem, there was usually something to admire about his character, whether it was his loyalty and genuine love for Drusilla, his growing friendship with "happy meal on legs" Joyce, or his genuine affection and sense of protectiveness for Dawn. He made a promise to a lady, and he kept it. Every night, he saved that self same lady, even though it didn't matter anymore. In order to atone for the attempt of an unspeakable crime, ha did something that, as fer as we know, had never been done, or even attempted by another of his kind. He stood beside his Slayer against an entire army of "vampires that vampires fear," and was instrumental in their destruction at, as far as he knew at the time, the cost of his very life, and he laughed while doing it. He was the first to volunteer to stand beside a man who he had every right to despise, to face yet another army, to fight in another battle that would almost certainly be suicidal. And let's not forget, he just might be instrumental in helping save the world yet again in the next few months.

I call all of that pretty impressive for such a lame character. Course, that's just one man's opinion, but I like to think that it's pretty valid, arrived at honestly and logically.
 
S
StarSlayer
Well said!
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sisterofmercy
Good points
I think why people say he became lame is that the more involved he became with Buffy the more it became just Buffy. The character revolved around her and lost itself in her. Pre-chip and post-chip Spike could always be counted on for various shenanigans of some sort. The character had dimension and a far reaching scope. I think in latter seasons too many of the Spike storylines revolved around Buffy. Even when the love affair with Buffy was new, you still had Dru and Harmony involved. There was still an ebb and flow to the character which made it interesting. I think he 'got lame' the last two seasons when Spike become synonymous with Buffy. If they would have kept the tension between the two characters I think people would not have found it 'lame'

When David and Maddie finally hooked up in Moonlighting, the chemistry (and show) lost. Same here.
 
You could argue that WA and many fans do prefer Angelus or Angel on his own show and that's all fine BUT it's not an argument that means Spike's any less lame season five onwards.

And we can argue this til the end of time. For you, you found all of things admirable about Spike and made his character more interesting but for others no matter what the opposing argument is, if you're not interested in that kind of development then you're going to see it is a character regression.
 
You could argue that WA and many fans do prefer Angelus or Angel on his own show and that's all fine BUT it's not an argument that means Spike's any less lame season five onwards.

And we can argue this til the end of time. For you, you found all of things admirable about Spike and made his character more interesting but for others no matter what the opposing argument is, if you're not interested in that kind of development then you're going to see it is a character regression.

As I said, I was only using the Angelus/Angel analogy to illustrate how the same person can, and usually is, seen as being more interesting when evil than when being good.

And, yes, we can argue the merits of the statement that Spike appeared to become more "lame" once he stopped being evil. I thought that was what that thread was about, whether or not we, as individuals, agreed.

And arguing to the end of time is fine with me, as long as the argument remains civil and interesting. That's my main reason for being here. That, and to be a constant thorn on the side of a certain Bangel who shall remain nameless...
 
My problem isn't with "good Spike" as apposed to "evil Spike". I love Spike in S5, I think he's really interesting then, but I hate him in S6 - yet you could very easily say that Spike is more "good" in S5 than S6. I'm quite fond of AtS!Spike too, I vastly prefer him to his character in S7, yet he's the same champion with a soul in both. Spike's "lameness", for me, does not correlate with how good or evil he is, but - and I think Scobro has it right here - more with how involved his arc is with Buffy. As Scobro said, Spike's character in S5 still had many dimensions to it, he may have fallen in love with Buffy, but he still had many interactions and bonds with many other characters - Drusilla, Harmony, Joyce, Dawn, Xander, and more - there was more to him beyond Buffy. But after S5, it felt like his only motivation was his love for Buffy, the only person he seemed to interact with was Buffy - she was the one, everything became about her. There was some interaction with Dawn in early S6 and a few scenes with Anya, but beyond that I'm struggling to think of anyone else Spike even had a scene with, let alone another bond. As I said before, his one-size-fits-all motivation made him a flat and predictable character. When he got onto AtS and away from Buffy, I think he improved a lot. In "Destiny", "Harm's Way" and "Soul Purpose", he gained a motivation outside of Buffy. He had interactions with and formed bonds with many other characters - Fred, Angel, Harmony and Illyria to name a few.

When it comes down to it, I just thought that Spike's character was uninteresting in S6-7 - his love for Buffy was well-handled in S5, and in AtS he benefited from Buffy's absence (and to be honest, a similar thing could be said for Angel.
 
Spike was probably the first thing about the show that I fell in love with and the first episode I saw was 'Once More, With Feeling' in season 6. I liked the fact that he was in love with Buffy, I thought it was cool and could potentially be very interesting. From that moment on I was a Spuffie!

However, I can see valid arguments here. He does change a bit and it does happen all of a sudden. But you can easily SEE that Spike is turned on by Buffy throughout the whole series. From the first time he sees her you can just tell. Plus, in Who Are You when Faith/Buffy teases him you can just see the look on his face and how totally turned on he is. He just really doesn't want to admitt it to himself because it's a love hate thing. He's addicted to killing and all that and that's how he first met Buffy, through his favourite thing. And she was a fighting machine that actually gave him a run for his money. He liked that.

So, I really don't think it was that sudden. It seemed like it though. I think the sex dreams about Buffy forced him to kind of admitt it to himself and then to her, if you know what I mean.

This isn't to say that I don't like the guy he was before, when he was evil. In actual fact, when he loves Buffy, I think he is still evil. Becuase although he has changed, he hasn't changed that much. It's just his feelings that have altered slightly in that he can admitt to being in love with the Slayer, which he couldn't before. But he doesn't actual change all that much when he admitts he loves her. He is still evil, he still wants to be. As Xander said, if the chip stopped working he would probably be right back out there on a killing spree. It's just who he is. And his ultimate cool factor didn't change either, he was just a bit mopey and whiny which has always been true of him.

He's cool both ways and I will always love him.
 
I don't think he was lamer, I found it fascinating really. It was a much more interesting journey to watch (to being truly good) than Angel's (I like each characters equally btw).

The only problem I had is that it was a bit too easy seeing Spike fall for Buffy. I mean one moment he hated her, and then as someone already pointed out, he was in love with her because of a wet dream? Now THAT is what's lame.

I know someone mentioned that James said he played the character as being attracted to Buffy, but I don't think that necessarily means he played him as being in love with her. I think Spike has always been attracted to slayers in a twisted way, and that's the angle that James was coming from initially I'm sure.
 
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StarSlayer
I think it can be argued Spike didn't realize the extent of his feelings until the last scene in FFL. At least that's how I see it. :)
Spike was never lame! I think the character evolved on Buffy, and when he went back to Angel that turned him back to his old ways. I think Spike was at his best in seasons 2, 5, 6 and Angel season 5
 
Why does being in love make a person lame? Just because he doesn't try to kill the one he's been attracted to all these years?

Spike has always had a sensitive part in him. He still has William in him. Even when he loved Dru, he was still caring for the one he loved. It's not that he became more sensitive once he fell for Buffy, it was always inside of him, with or without a soul.

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 AM ----------

I don't think he was lamer, I found it fascinating really. It was a much more interesting journey to watch (to being truly good) than Angel's (I like each characters equally btw).

The only problem I had is that it was a bit too easy seeing Spike fall for Buffy. I mean one moment he hated her, and then as someone already pointed out, he was in love with her because of a wet dream? Now THAT is what's lame.

I know someone mentioned that James said he played the character as being attracted to Buffy, but I don't think that necessarily means he played him as being in love with her. I think Spike has always been attracted to slayers in a twisted way, and that's the angle that James was coming from initially I'm sure.

Still, Spike's attraction to Buffy was different from the one he had for other slayers. He said it himself in "Seein Red". That it's a whole different thing with Buffy. He hated being a love's bitch, he hated that he had a good part in him when all of his vampire life he has tried to be more Angelus like, evil as him, he looked up to him. But he was never as evil as Angelus, because he's still party William.
 
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