Spike got lamer when he loved buffy?

He starts to go downhill in season 4 for me but he was still interesting enough then. Spike in season 5 and especially season 6 is very hard for me to watch. He started out a good character and ended a good character in Angel, but that middle period does not do justice to him.
 
I always wondered do people think Angel got more interesting when he left Buffy? It is weird Spike seems to be considered lamer at times and Angel cooler you could say. All of it over Buffy. I never thought about it seriously until now really thought about it.
 
I will never understand why people think he got lamer when he fell in love with Buffy. To me, madly in love with Buffy Spike is a thousand times more interesting than wants to kill 'the slayer' whoever that may be Spike.
 
I will never understand why people think he got lamer when he fell in love with Buffy. To me, madly in love with Buffy Spike is a thousand times more interesting than wants to kill 'the slayer' whoever that may be Spike.
I agree with this one. Spike to me was one of those rare characters that was great either way. It was nice to see him love Buffy but also grow as a character. I don't want to watch a seven season show and see the same characters that I did in the first season I want to see them grow and that is what Spike did. I don't see him as lame maybe he isn't as over the top but he was always the Spike with his wit.
 
I agree with this one. Spike to me was one of those rare characters that was great either way. It was nice to see him love Buffy but also grow as a character. I don't want to watch a seven season show and see the same characters that I did in the first season I want to see them grow and that is what Spike did. I don't see him as lame maybe he isn't as over the top but he was always the Spike with his wit.

That bolded bit. Yes. That! That's why I get so annoyed when people talk about how the later seasons were the characters acting out of character... maybe they were acting out of character for early seasons that character but at some point, you have to let the characters develop and change. And you're right. Spike grew... he changed... he developed. We have a clear journey he went through... We saw him grow.... And that's special. It made him fresh and interesting. Because he didn't stay the same guy for forever. Stuff happened... Life happened... and he changed.
 
M
Marisa
Great minds think alike :p I do agree life happened Spike went through a lot and of course he would change for the better IMO.
That bolded bit. Yes. That! That's why I get so annoyed when people talk about how the later seasons were the characters acting out of character... maybe they were acting out of character for early seasons that character but at some point, you have to let the characters develop and change.

One can develop characters without necessarily ending up with a show where most of the cast members have committed enough crimes to put them on death row. On a less extreme note, the argument that characters weren't acting out of characters because they had to change is bit absurd. There is change and change. Everyone decides for themselves what constitutes OOC behaviour. Just because a character changed doesn't mean that change made any sense whatsoever.

Why does being in love make a person lame? Just because he doesn't try to kill the one he's been attracted to all these years?

Well, if in real life one tries to kill somebody else again and again, and then, after years of such attempts, he or she decides out of the blue that this somebody is actually the person they love most of the world, I am pretty sure almost anyone who hears that story would think the fellow in question must be quite mentally challenged.

Personally I think Spike's story veered right into bizarre territory in Pangs (where he made the ridiculous move of going to Buffy of all people for help) and stayed there to the very end. He was a square peg that the writers tried to fit into a round hole. His "love" for Buffy made about as much sense as Buffy waking up in love with Stalin. His very presence in the show made everyone else look like a fool.
 
Kean
Kean
LMFAO at the Stalin line
Well, if in real life one tries to kill somebody else again and again, and then, after years of such attempts, he or she decides out of the blue that this somebody is actually the person they love most of the world, I am pretty sure almost anyone who hears that story would think the fellow in question must be quite mentally challenged.

That's not what Spike did. This is where we have to credit JM for building a story where it wasn't with the subtlety of his acting. Watch season 2. He has an attraction to Buffy. Dru broke up with him because she as a seer saw her all around him. She was in thoughts all the time. He didn't out of the blue decide he was in love with her. He realized he was in love with her. In Crush, Dru says she knew before he did that he was in love with Buffy. She didn't say she knew before he did he would fall in love with Buffy... or decide he's in love with Buffy.
 
That's not what Spike did. This is where we have to credit JM for building a story where it wasn't with the subtlety of his acting.

Subtlety of acting is an oxymoronic phrase when it comes to this particular actor in this particular role, I am afraid. Okay, okay, I know, very unpopular opinion.

And in any event, attraction since S2 or not (an idea which I personally think is not supported in the text at all, just look at how annoyed Spike is when Angel decides to torment Buffy instead of trying to kill her ASAP), trying repeatedly to kill somebody and then "deciding" your in love with them is all kinds of ridiculous.
 
That's not what Spike did. This is where we have to credit JM for building a story where it wasn't with the subtlety of his acting. Watch season 2. He has an attraction to Buffy. Dru broke up with him because she as a seer saw her all around him. She was in thoughts all the time. He didn't out of the blue decide he was in love with her. He realized he was in love with her. In Crush, Dru says she knew before he did that he was in love with Buffy. She didn't say she knew before he did he would fall in love with Buffy... or decide he's in love with Buffy.

I would also have to frown a little at this supposed subtlety of acting.

The "attraction" in season 2 is kind of overrated. What comes to mind is Spike seeing Buffy dance and circling like a predator he does seem attracted to her yes (as JM has admitted to playing it) but it feels more or less like a hunter/pray scenario for as Icarium pointed out he is more than willing to see her on her deathbed for the remainder of the season and a few years onwards.

Basically the attraction is him seeing a beautiful girl dancing... no big whoop there for me beause SMG is beautiful.

As for the love thing. For me it was an out of the blue decision of the writers, and in consequence an out of the blue decision for Spike. It felt like they needed a purpose for him in order to keep him on the show and since he was "de-fanged" they didn't have a lot of options (not to mention fan pressure)

I don't mind Spuffy in its entirety but the plot line does have a lot of problems for me.
 
Subtlety of acting is an oxymoronic phrase when it comes to this particular actor in this particular role, I am afraid. Okay, okay, I know, very unpopular opinion.

And in any event, attraction since S2 or not (an idea which I personally think is not supported in the text at all, just look at how annoyed Spike is when Angel decides to torment Buffy instead of trying to kill her ASAP), trying repeatedly to kill somebody and then "deciding" your in love with them is all kinds of ridiculous.
So is the concept of Bangel. On Buffy's side: knowing someone has killed god knows how many people for 200+ years and falling in love with them anyway. on Angel's side: randomly deciding to do something with your life and be someone also deciding you want to play protector and are in love with a girl you saw for a few minutes from a distance.

And Cander: hating someone for practically all your life, then falling for each other.

Xander's side of Xanya looks a lot like Buffy's in Bangel. Except it's kinda more ridiculous.

Bottom line: love is ridiculous.

---------- Post added at 01:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 AM ----------

I would also have to frown a little at this supposed subtlety of acting.

The "attraction" in season 2 is kind of overrated. What comes to mind is Spike seeing Buffy dance and circling like a predator he does seem attracted to her yes (as JM has admitted to playing it) but it feels more or less like a hunter/pray scenario for as Icarium pointed out he is more than willing to see her on her deathbed for the remainder of the season and a few years onwards.

Basically the attraction is him seeing a beautiful girl dancing... no big whoop there for me beause SMG is beautiful.

As for the love thing. For me it was an out of the blue decision of the writers, and in consequence an out of the blue decision for Spike. It felt like they needed a purpose for him in order to keep him on the show and since he was "de-fanged" they didn't have a lot of options (not to mention fan pressure)

I don't mind Spuffy in its entirety but the plot line does have a lot of problems for me.

I see more than just that one scene of him being attracted to her in season 2. I see it in pretty much every fight scene they have. Part of that, yes, is that Spike gets off on fighting... But part of it isn't.
 
No, he did not get 'lamer'. Spike was always an interesting character to me. He just added more layers in the last seasons. He's such a sympathic guy. 🙂 Nobody I watched the show with actually disliked him. He's always funny, and the kind of guy who just do anything for the person he loves. At first it was Dru, then later on, Buffy.

I might not be a Spuffy, but I appreciated how their relationship developed over the course of the show. And even though I really liked Riley with Buffy, I didn't see Spike falling in love with her as forced or an attempt to keep him longer in the show. I think he deserved to stay in the series, just because of how important he was to it! I couldn't imagine BtVS without him, just like I couldn't imagine Angel without Cordelia. 😉
 
M
Marisa
[No message]
So is the concept of Bangel. On Buffy's side: knowing someone has killed god knows how many people for 200+ years and falling in love with them anyway. on Angel's side: randomly deciding to do something with your life and be someone also deciding you want to play protector and are in love with a girl you saw for a few minutes from a distance.

And Cander: hating someone for practically all your life, then falling for each other.

Xander's side of Xanya looks a lot like Buffy's in Bangel. Except it's kinda more ridiculous.

Bottom line: love is ridiculous.

To be honest, I can't say that those relationships were set up all that well either. But except for Xanya none is as ludicrously implausible and so much of a retcon to what's established before as Spuffy is. There is a world of difference between disliking somebody like Cordelia and thinking (quite rightly) that Spike or Anya are monsters because of the simple fact of them being mass murderers. This "love is ridiculous" slogan for me is just an excuse for the writers to sell out and hook up characters in the most ridiculous of fashions. I mean, if someone was to make a movie about how Hitler is changed by his love for Mother Theresa, I doubt the argument love is blind would really fly. 🙂 As a Buffyverse example think about how you would have reacted if Willow decided that instead of killnig Warren, she should start dating him. Love is blind, right, so why not? How about Caleb/Buffy or The Master/Xander? Love is blind!

The supposed attraction from S2 (which if true for me only points what a terrible actor JM is, putting something into his character against the wishes of the directors and writers isn't subtle acting, it's called "not doing your job right") is quite irrelevant anyway. It's quite possible to be attracted to someone you hate, doesn't mean that if you later "decide" to fall in love with them people won't ask you "Er, dude? I thought you hated that woman?". Of course, we are talking about Spike, the vampire who decided to go for help to the woman that had almost killed him half a dozen times so brain damage is always a possible interpretation...
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
So it was a retcon. A good ol' Joss, never afraid to violate continuity in order to pander to certain fans...
 
I love Spike a lot. I think my problem with him in S6 and S7 is the same problem I have with Anya and Tara. Spike is all about Buffy. Anya is all about Xander. Tara is all about Willow. It's not a suprise that you see a lot of fans enjoying Spike's scenes with Dawn or Xander so much, Anya with Giles, Tara with Dawn and Buffy...

I wish Spike interacted more with Buffy's friends in S6 and S7. I would have liked to see him form a bond with someone other than Buffy. Here's hoping that he's gonna become friends with a Scooby other than Buffy in S9. I gotta nag Scott to include lots of Xander/Spike scenes. 😀
 
I love Spike a lot. I think my problem with him in S6 and S7 is the same problem I have with Anya and Tara. Spike is all about Buffy. Anya is all about Xander. Tara is all about Willow. It's not a suprise that you see a lot of fans enjoying Spike's scenes with Dawn or Xander so much, Anya with Giles, Tara with Dawn and Buffy...

I wish Spike interacted more with Buffy's friends in S6 and S7. I would have liked to see him form a bond with someone other than Buffy. Here's hoping that he's gonna become friends with a Scooby other than Buffy in S9. I gotta nag Scott to include lots of Xander/Spike scenes. 😀

You've got a point. Never thought of it this way before. I did feel before that Tara is all about Willow and they have their own tongue and jokes. Tara is nice, and they're nice together. But it's true that Tara - all about Willow and sometimes that annoys me.

So I guesss it's true about Spike too. Because I adore his scenes with Willow and Xander and Giles, etc. However, you must remember that most of the scoobies hated him for so long, for longer than Buffy. He was they're enemy and weren't so understanding as Buffy was. It's not easy bringing yourself in to a group of people who don't even like you. Tara was liked from the start. And I see no reason why she couldn't have more connection with the rest.

About Anya, well Anya is Anya. She doesn't usually like people. Human. She didn't like any of them from the start. She really wanted to go to the prom and found Xander as the best option. And he understood her all the way, accepted the ex demon in her and even wanted to marry her. It was only later on when she started liking the rest of the group. But still wouldn't have mind if they were gone. All except for Xander. She just didn't like humans. She wasn't around humans this way for such a long time.
 
Can I just say two things?
A) There is a difference between disliking character development in general, and disliking the way a certain character developed. No, I didn't want Spike in S7 to be the same Spike we saw in S2. But I didn't want the Spike we got in S7.
B) Please stop trying to argue against anti-Spuffers by comparing their story to Bangel and imply that they are being hypocrites. Despite what people tend to assume, the world is not divided into Spuffies and Bangelers. Some of us think both were bad.

I always wondered do people think Angel got more interesting when he left Buffy? It is weird Spike seems to be considered lamer at times and Angel cooler you could say. All of it over Buffy. I never thought about it seriously until now really thought about it.

I definitely think that Angel became a million times more interesting when he left Buffy. When he was with Buffy, he never matured or really grew into his own person, or seemed capable of cracking a smile. He became a much more well-rounded character once he got his own show.

This is the thing that bugs me the most about the whole Angel/Buffy/Spike thing. All three are really awesome characters that I love for the most part and have really great moments. But I find that every one of these characters becomes less interesting the more involved they are with each other. Angel and Spike for me shine brightest in scenes where Buffy isn't present. They both seem brighter, snarkier, friendlier, happier around other characters. And Buffy I love when she's interacting with Giles, Xander or Willow, where she's cute, spunky and fun-loving; when she's with a vampire she seems to be mopier, whinier, almost hollow. Even Angel and Spike, who are very entertaining together, are far better off when neither one of them is talking about Buffy. Episodes like Destiny and The Girl in Question grated on me for this very reason.

I wish Spike interacted more with Buffy's friends in S6 and S7. I would have liked to see him form a bond with someone other than Buffy.

^This. The greatest problem with Spike in the later seasons to me was how intrinsicly and exclusively his story was wound up in Spuffy. There is nothing to Spike in the last two seasons that isn't about Buffy. Everything Spike did was motivated by his love for Buffy. I think I can count the amount of scenes he shared with people who weren't Buffy on one hand.

Again we can see the similarities to Angel. What Angel lacked in those early seasons was bonds with people who weren't Buffy. He was a static character, stuck in the same version of himself. It's not healthy to be that involved in one person and nobody else in the world, and it's boring for us to see the same kind of interaction over and over again. Mixing up the character interactions keeps things fresh and interesting.

This for me is why Spike (and certainly Spuffy) was possibly at his best in S5. Yeah, I thought that his sudden realisation about being in love with Buffy was rushed and a little unbelievable and contrived, and I hated the retcons centering around it (re: Crush). But his character was kept fresh by keeping him bouncing off many other characters. Then as Harmony left, Drusillla left, Joyce died and Spike stopped having scenes with Dawn and the Scoobies, we were left with repetitive, stale scenes between Spike and Buffy, and it gave the impression that Spike literally didn't exist outside of Buffy. Like Angel, moving to the spin-off gave his character a breath of fresh air as he started to have scenes and form bonds with a variety of characters.
 
I liked the retcon in Season 5, lol. 😀 Maybe I'm a little like Joss in that respect. I'm a fan of that scene with the drippy antlers guy. 😛

For me, when Spike fell in love with Buffy, it TOTALLY made sense. Because this is what Spike does. He's drawn to powerful women and important female figures and he remakes himself from their influence. From his mother, to Cecily, to Drusilla... and then we have Buffy. And she's powerful and strong, she doesn't take his BS and beats him up on a regular basis, she's gorgeous, she's got this kind of righteous fury thing going on... how could he not fall for that? 😀 It's just so Spike. I wouldn't say he got "lamer" when he fell in love with Buffy, but he definitely changed in a way that I thought was pretty in-character.
 
X
xaphania
Spike falling in love with Buffy definitely made sense to me, too.
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
Moscow Watcher
Moscow Watcher
Totally agree.
S
StarSlayer
Well said :)
I love Spuffy in later seasons. I love the desperation and angst of season 6, I love sweetness and hope of season 7. I think that Spike is the only Buffy's bopyfriend who has got his own story, his own journey no less interesting than Buffy's own journey - without getting his own show.

The most interesting moment in Spike's story revolve around Buffy. The most interesting scenes in Buffy's story in later seasons revolve around Spike.
 
S
StarSlayer
[No message]
I definitely think that Angel became a million times more interesting when he left Buffy. When he was with Buffy, he never matured or really grew into his own person, or seemed capable of cracking a smile. He became a much more well-rounded character once he got his own show.

This is the thing that bugs me the most about the whole Angel/Buffy/Spike thing. All three are really awesome characters that I love for the most part and have really great moments. But I find that every one of these characters becomes less interesting the more involved they are with each other. Angel and Spike for me shine brightest in scenes where Buffy isn't present. They both seem brighter, snarkier, friendlier, happier around other characters. And Buffy I love when she's interacting with Giles, Xander or Willow, where she's cute, spunky and fun-loving; when she's with a vampire she seems to be mopier, whinier, almost hollow. Even Angel and Spike, who are very entertaining together, are far better off when neither one of them is talking about Buffy. Episodes like Destiny and The Girl in Question grated on me for this very reason.
I agree with this 100%. I almost feel now when I really think about it, to me it is not Angel or Spike it is Buffy. You put them in a relationship with her and they are looked at as lame or they don't grow so it is a loose loose. I do love Spuffy but sometimes it seems like it is this way.
I love Spike in season five of Angel I think that is what makes season five of Angel so great. I think Spike on his own is an amazing character and when you look at him for him you see he is more than Spuffy. I can say that and I am a big Spuffy supporter.
Like you said Buffy is great on her own as well. Just in the pilot of with her and Willow she shined and was so happy.
Maybe the relationships with the vampires take a toll on everyone involved. Then again she didn't seem to want to be with Riley. It is all such a big complicated mess. 😕
 
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