Spike-less Season 7

[white avenger]

How do you think that Season 7 would have played out if Spike had simply left the season before and never returned? Assuming that the rest of the season pretty much followed along the way that it actually did, would Faith have been the one to insist on wearing the amulet in the final battle? Would Buffy have been more likely to have accepted Angel's offer to stay and help? Would Robin Wood's part have been pretty much the same, or would he even have had any real reason for being there?

Or, do you think that Spike was so integral to the general story line of the season that anything without him would have had to be a total rewrite of the season?

(And, please, this isn't just an opportunity for Spike bashing. If you think that the season would have been better without him there, that's fine, only give a better reason that just that too much time was spent on the character or that Buffy's attempted rapist from the previous year should have been staked before Season 6 was concluded)

Personally, I would go with Faith returning to Sunnydale earlier in the year, ignoring her part in that season of "Angel." (Gwen the Electric Girl could have taken her place there) It could have even worked out that she would have been the one who Buffy defended against everyone else, who could have been the one to "risk everything to become a better Slayer," and even who defended Buffy after the others mutinied and threw her out. (We'll just skip the sleeping together at the end of the season.) She could have even been the one to end up as the ghost in Season 5 of "Angel."

 

[Robb Stark]

Well, if for some reason James Marsters was lost to the series and they had to proceed without him, I think they could have, but it would have been wildly different. If we're going from a writing perspective and not so much just story, I think that Angel would have been brought back much sooner.

Not only from how the story is told but also from how it is constructed, Spike was very important in S7. He's the central male character in a show that by that point didn't have a strong male presence on the whole (that isn't to say Xander isn't a great character, but he's one character). The network wouldn't have allowed Xander to be the only main male character. So if Spike is gone I think they would have done everything possible to have Angel show up as much as possible, and he would have played a much larger role in interacting with the rest of the cast and the final battle. Good call on Robin Wood's role being expanded as well. And on Faith. I loved her in S4 of Angel though, I wouldn't want to mess with that if it could have been avoided.

 

[ladydorotea]

I know I am biased, but for one reason or another I think that without Spike in the mix S7 might have actually been all about Buffy and her reconnecting with her friends and family; as in what the 'going back to the roots' season was supposed to be about. I even dare to suggest that it would have been a much better conclusion to the series and a message that would have been delivered would have been - on a larger scale - much more healthy and optimistic. Not to mention that the whole mess of the sexual assault followed by utter forgiveness/friendly reconciliation by the victim story would have been avoided. As it was , the season's message of going back to the roots and reconnecting with loved ones was instantly lost, the moment the trigger plot was introduced and the center of attention shifted from Buffy and her family to Spike - who then proceeded to cheerfully steal the season as his personal redemption story. While in itself Spike's character and his fans benefited the most from this turn of events, the rest of the audience was left to watch infinite amount of Spike being drowned, Spike being beaten, Spike singing, Spike dancing, Spike prancing about killing people while under influence - and being instantly forgiven and defended, Spike being rescued, Spike being pampered and prepped for the 'ultimate sacrifice/victimhood', and finally Spike cheerfully burning alive as Spike-Superstar, only to be soon resurrected again, etc.
I daresay I would have preferred equal amount of Giles/Willow/Xander and maybe Angel returning a bit earlier to join the gang and be at the series finale. As is, the season happens to have a giant hole in the middle - where virtually nothing but Spike happens at all, and it was entirely not fair to the rest of the series' crew.

 

[iShower4free]

I personally think season 7 would have been fine without Spike, they would have just needed to find a new way of defeating the ubervamps. They probably would have brought Angel back to where the amulet then found a way to bring him back to life in his own show.

 

[EffyStonem]

I know I am biased, but for one reason or another I think that without Spike in the mix S7 might have actually been all about Buffy and her reconnecting with her friends and family; as in what the 'going back to the roots' season was supposed to be about. I even dare to suggest that it would have been a much better conclusion to the series and a message that would have been delivered would have been - on a larger scale - much more healthy and optimistic. Not to mention that the whole mess of the sexual assault followed by utter forgiveness/friendly reconciliation by the victim story would have been avoided. As it was , the season's message of going back to the roots and reconnecting with loved ones was instantly lost, the moment the trigger plot was introduced and the center of attention shifted from Buffy and her family to Spike - who then proceeded to cheerfully steal the season as his personal redemption story. While in itself Spike's character and his fans benefited the most from this turn of events, the rest of the audience was left to watch infinite amount of Spike being drowned, Spike being beaten, Spike singing, Spike dancing, Spike prancing about killing people while under influence - and being instantly forgiven and defended, Spike being rescued, Spike being pampered and prepped for the 'ultimate sacrifice/victimhood', and finally Spike cheerfully burning alive as Spike-Superstar, only to be soon resurrected again, etc.
I daresay I would have preferred equal amount of Giles/Willow/Xander and maybe Angel returning a bit earlier to join the gang and be at the series finale. As is, the season happens to have a giant hole in the middle - where virtually nothing but Spike happens at all, and it was entirely not fair to the rest of the series' crew.

I agree with this one hundred per cent. I wanted to give rep but apparently I can't right now.

 

[TotallySpiked]

Hmm, tough one. Being a Spike fan and a Spuffy, I have no problem with how Spike-centric season 7 was, however, I can see how someone who doesn't share my thoughts could have been annoyed by it.
If we removed Spike from the equation - he could possibly have returned for a couple of episodes of season 7 - told Buffy he has a soul, that he loves her and is going to go find purpose - elsewhere. Not too sure on the fundamentals, but at least it would have given me some form of closure (as opposed to just being staked).
That being said 'Beneath You' could have been his last appearance just with a few minor tweaks.
His departure could have then shifted focus back onto the core-four- getting back to the feel of the earlier seasons. That their bonds were unbreakable and that they'd do anything for each other without a moments hesitation. I definately would have wanted to see more unity and definately some more laughs from these guys - just enjoying each others company.
Whilst I did like Andrew, we could have done without him as well as his most comedic interactions were with Spike.
I think bringing Faith in a lot earlier would have been awesome and she could have had a bigger role in training the potentials (maybe even take charge of it). I would have liked to have seen the potentials not living in Buffy's house - maybe Faith could find out that the mayor left her a massive house in his Will or something to that effect and they could have all stayed there. Buffy would have her input and give her expertise but her focus should remain on the scoobies - a lot more reading of books and general camaraderie like earlier in the series. Faith would be proving that she can lead and can be a good slayer. Kind of a mini redemption ark for the Buffy series. Thus removing the need for everyone to kick Buffy out of her own house (for no reason) and then eliminating the need for Spike to give her a pep talk and therefore removing the need for 'Touched'. More prep time for the final battle (I felt it was too rushed and could have been either a two-part or 3-part finale).
Caleb should have been brought in earlier too and should have been the Big Bad for the entire season - he was much more threatening than The First and I genuinely found him creepy. (My second favourite villain behind The Mayor.) Maybe have Caleb and The First merge a lot sooner that way Caleb was 'unstoppable' for a lot longer.
Bring Angel back in the 3rd last episode just as they're preparing for battle - have him offer to wear the amulet but Buffy declines- cookie-dough speech still occurs minus the stuff about Spike.
Two possible ways this could end; Faith could wear the amulet and therefore end her redemption arc (like stated above- could then transition onto Angel just like Spike did and become a main character for their 5th season) OR Buffy could have worn it - Saving the entire Slayer-line from becoming extinct, saving her friends, her family and being at peace knowing she did everything to protect everyone for the future. Personally, I like the Faith wearing the amulet idea better...guess it depends on what message you want season 7 to end with.
Also think Anya should have left after Selfless...never really saw her purpose and since there was no Andrew, no chance for the uplifting 'I love humans' speech.

Wow. Turns out I wrote a lot more than what I thought I would have...I kind of like my idea of a Spike-less season 7. I'd almost prefer to see it😉

 

[itssmiletime]

Buffy would've definitely been more pleasant, I know that for sure. Her ''this is war'' attitude really got old quickly.I got the impression that Spike often stopped Buffy from seeing the wider, more realistic, and importantly, humane picture. Remember how they defeated Adam? It wasn't just Buffy; it was Xander, Willow and Giles also. I felt that Xander and Giles, in particular had smaller significance. Xander had moments in ''Potential'' but say if Spike was out of the picture, the more screentime- so say in Empty Places, it would be more devestating having Xander lose his eyes, or metaphorically, his ability to see.

If Spike was out of the picture, there is a high chance Caleb would be introduced earlier- a tweak in the story would be along the lines of Caleb getting power out of the Hellmouth / The First. Caleb does kinda remind me of The Mayor- human, but not really, and really intriguing and completely evil character to watch.

As for Wood, probably not be in the season. Spike was so ghastly to him in Lies My Parents Told Me, that episode really twitches me inside. Shame though about Wood, because one of my favourite episodes in season 7 is Help which is linked to Wood.

Also, with Spike out of the picture, Angel's appearance in the last two episodes, would have been more meaningful. He spent so much of that time talking about Spike's soul, which I felt was a waste.

Also... with the more ''screentime'' we would actually get to see more magic. Magic got an unfairly bad reputation, with Willow's season 6 addiction and that god awful Amy scenes in The Killer In Me. I'm not talking magic necessarily by Willow. One of the members of the Circle Of Black Thorn is a wizard, and he was extremely powerful. Seeing as Whedon wanted to go all epicy on us, perhaps to go further into the supernatural realms, perhaps even with demon mythology.

Spike not being there would have been better for the show. The only episode that seemed to have more than a shred of season 6 is Selfless. I do blame Spike for clogging up space: the beautiful family themes of season 5, the emotional impact of season 2, the darkness of season 3 & 6 are undone and treated as if they never happen. I know you asked for not replies to turn into anti-Spike rants, but I do blame Spike for the stupid changes in Buffy's character, and for me, that changes everything. In Lies My Parents Told Me, Buffy told giles that she'd sacrifice Dawn if it meant to save the world. I love The Gift so much, the sacrifice Buffy made was simply amazing. And when she sent Angel to hell, it kinda destroyed a part of her.But he was a vampire who could survive a hell dimension. Not only did Buffy loose her character, she lost her humanity. Okay I'll calm down now.

 

[iShower4free]

Is Faith really a "hero" yet though? Would the amulet work with her.

 

[TotallySpiked]

Hmm. I'm not too sure. I think if she had spent the entirety of season 7 training and guiding the potentials and being the slayer she always could have been, I'm sure she could have been considered a hero.

 

[Robb Stark]

Huh. It's interesting reading the above responses because I seem to be one of the few who believes that the show wouldn't have worked nearly as well if Spike hadn't been around in S7.

I think with the way S6 ended for him, you had to bring him back. He'd been a huge, huge part of the series for a long time, and in a few instances, really carried it (S4 in particular. He saved more than a few episodes that season). It is also important to remember that Anthony Head wasn't interested in being a regular anymore at that point, so it's difficult to say that Giles should have had more screen time when the actor literally didn't want to be there. Xander's role could have been upped, absolutely, but even bringing Angel in would have been tough. Network entanglements aside, having Angel be a regular on two weekly series at the same time would have proven incredibly difficult. So with Angel and Giles' roles limited, even if they increased them from what they were, that leaves only Xander, really, to carry the male lead on the show, and that was never really his capacity, or at least, not since S1.

I like Spike, so I didn't have issue with his presence in S7. I felt like his arc with The First was dragged out and could have been resolved in two or three episodes, but that's more an issue a season sagging in the middle because the writers were out of ideas.

But structurally, I think Spike needed to be there, and I was fine with him. I know his redemption angle bothers people, which I understand, but as a fan, I have always said to myself that you can't fault Spike, or Angel, for the things they did without a soul. Primarily because it makes sense, but also because otherwise we'd be cheering for serial killers. So even though I despised the sexual assault arc and thought it was botched horribly, I thought Spike's ensouled redemption made sense. If you're going to blame Spike the character for that when he has a soul, then you have to do the same with Angel. I just don't like that any way you slice it.

 

[crazysoulless]

Faith didn't want to and couldn't handle leading the Potentials for 2 days. She said that it was the loneliest she has ever felt in her entire life and she finally got what Buffy must've felt every day for years. I can't see her training the Potentials all season. Or housing them since she told Spike within hours of meeting the girls that she needed time away from them and that training them was Buffy's thing.

The Potentials liked Faith because she was the cool aunt while Buffy was the mother that made them eat their veggies and go to bed.

In the graphic novels, Faith did not want to be in charge of a squad or be part of one. She was a loner by choice and didn't think she had Slayer wisdom to pass on. Faith was barely learning how to be a part of a group so I can't see her leading a group.

I can see Buffy defending Faith since Buffy defends everybody that has done wrong, betrayed her, etc. But I can't see her giving a speech about Faith like the one Xander gave about Buffy. She has forgiven Faith and can be allies with her but I don't think she will ever be completely comfortable around her or be able to let go of what Faith did to her. It was one of the only times in Buffy's entire life that she felt like a victim and not a survivor. In fact, that was the very first time she felt like a victim. Buffy was already showing enough forgiveness by not getting mad that Faith had sex in her bed (she really doesn't know sex boundaries when it comes to B) and letting her stay in the room that used to be Joyce's (the last time Faith saw her she punched her unconscious and was going to stab her to death).

 

[TotallySpiked]

Huh. It's interesting reading the above responses because I seem to be one of the few who believes that the show wouldn't have worked nearly as well if Spike hadn't been around in S7.

I very much enjoyed Spike's inclusion in the show and some of my favourite episodes of the entire series centre around him; LMPTM and Touched. Season 7 is one of my favourite seasons behind the first 3. I do believe he made the show what it was in some respects, that being said though - I do think season 7 would have been workable without him and it would have been interesting to see how it would have played out. But I do agree with his redemption arc; I very much enjoyed it and seeing Spike become a wonderful man (which I saw the potential for the whole time) was worth it. He'll always be my favourite character🙂

I have always said to myself that you can't fault Spike, or Angel, for the things they did without a soul.

I very much agree with this. I'm sure anyone without a soul would act the exact same way as they did. You don't have a conscience, you have a blood-lust, you would enjoy someone else's pain - it all goes with the territory. Restore a soul and you have the humanity back. Simple as that. Someone with a soul cannot be blamed for the actions of someone who has no ability to care about anything that involves feelings or morals. Obviously that is just my opinion, but it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Icarium]

As much as I loathe "only Spike" is S7, the overall level of writing was so amateurish that his absence would only have made the season a little better but still a trainwreck of epic proportions. We probably would just have had Buffy speechifying some more.

 

[JReed1985]

Gone off Spike?

Making one thing totally clear I love Spike as a character but I preferred him as a villain, he was the perfect nemesis for Buffy.
You might have read that part of me cannot forgive Spike for raping Buffy and there's a part of that thought Robin should have beaten Spike but decided not to kill him.
R.I.P. Evil Spike who I don't think I'll ever see again because there's so many Spuffy fans.

 

[Himiko]

I really need to rewatch series 7 to get a more solid idea, because it has been a long time since I last watched it (not a favorite of mine), but a few thoughts. Firstly, though, a disclaimer - I'm not a Spuffy fan, at all (or a Bangel, Buffy's relationships tend to make me facepalm a bit), so, whilst I do enjoy Spike as a character, I may be a bit biased with regards to this series.

- More time to develop other characters. Whether that means a few more episodes centering on the other major characters (Willow, Giles, Xander, Anya, Dawn), or a bit more time spent developing the Potentials, so they seemed a little less like... well, like cannon fodder, I guess... would have been nice. Given that this was the final season, and the last time we would see them on screen, more time on the other main characters would have been nice- Giles finding his "place" in the group again, and perhaps a bit more detail into the loss of the Watcher's Council, in particular.

- Buffy... this is what really annoys me about Season 7, much more so than Spuffy.

The earlier seasons of Buffy are interesting, not just because it flips the idea of "Pretty blonde girl as the horror victim" on it's head, but also the way it looks at the life of a "superhero"- and it's not great. As a teenager- still a child-you are used as a soldier in a war against monsters, that could kill you any time that you go out to fight. You were chosen by some mystical force, you get no choice in the matter. There's a big organisation telling you what to do, basically treating you as cannon fodder. It's horribly lonely. And over the first few seasons, we see Buffy's strength grow from the fact that she doesn't go along with this. She questions authority regularly, she rails against the fact that she's being basically told to die, and then later is almost killed because the Watcher's Council decree that Slayers need to be tested. She has moments of weakness, of hating her fate, but she has friends and family around her who know her secret, who help her through, who support her.

Then, in series 7, the Watcher's Council is no more. A bunch of potentials turn up, and Buffy basically becomes the Watchers Council towards them. She treats them like soldiers, she trains this bunch of children to fight, and whilst she doesn't want them to die, they are put in positions where this is more than likely, and Buffy's approach to them is pretty much "fall in line". Whilst keeping Spike- who by this point is a giant liability- around. Hell, when the Potentials question her, mostly it seems like they get written off as ungrateful brats.

I would hope that without Spike, with less support, Buffy might have accepted that there were flaws in her approach. Or, better yet, with the screen time freed up by a lack of Spike, we might actually get some scenes where someone- maybe Giles, maybe Willow, maybe Xander- actually points out the parallels between her S7 behaviour, and the Watcher's Council in earlier seasons, and have her react to it. Have her question herself, maybe even have a few scenes where we get some thoughts from her on how it feels to be on the other side of that relationship, some reflecting back onto how she used to be compared to how she is now.

Some more scenes regarding this might actually have made it quite interesting to watch, rather than confusing and a bit irritating- as it is, S7 can't seem to make up it's mind whether Buffy actually does need questioning sometimes on some of her decisions, or whether she needs to be obeyed without question, and anyone who doesn't do so deserves to be punished for not listening to her. And it never seems to address the parallels between her behaviour and that of the Watcher's Council, unless I'm misremembering, in which case, please feel free to correct me.

So, yeah, basically it's mostly a question of having extra time to develop other characters, and to develop other aspects of Buffy's character.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Oh can you imagine, it would have been wonderful.

Well first the First probably wouldn't have bothered attacking the gang, cuz he would been all like "well this group isn't nearly as sucky without the blonde loser here, their alright, let them do what they need to do"

In all seriousness the season would have been so much better.

More time would have been given to other characters (im sorry but that is a valid reason)
All the Spike melodrama would have been given over to core scoobies interacting, as there wouldn't have been time to bring in a new love interest.

I think everything would have played out exactly the same except all the main problems people mention in regards to season 7 would be sorted. The Potentials were underdeveloped and the core gang didn't interact. Without the Spike crap, the Potentials could have been fleshed out more, making us care about them more and it would have given screen time for the gang to interact instead of all the Spike/Buffy stuff that took up so many episodes.

I think Angel would have been brought in at the same time, but he would have stayed and he would have been tied to the Wolfram and Hart building in Angel season 5, and in Angel his gang would have rejected the Wolfram and Hart offer, but then would have been forced to take it in season 5 when Angel was bound to the building.

Buffy would have given him the same cookie speech, the reason I dont think anything else would have changed is Spike had no part in the overall story, his story was very self contained and easily moved around (had he not worn the amulet anyone else could have), so by removing Spike you just give room for all other stories to expand.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy would have given him the same cookie speech

I'm not so sure. The whole thing was brought about by, "I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide, here." That speech was as much to assure Angel that she is still hopeful for a happily ever after, someday, with someone, maybe him. Without Angel feeling that he was getting that brush off, Buffy would have had no reason to say any of that...stuff.

And, let's face it, without that scene, cookie dough speech and all, there wouldn't have been any real reason for Angel to be there in the first place. The amulet was both lame and unnecessary. Willow's Scythe spell could just as easily have been the sole reason for Buffy and her army winning the battle.

 

[Blaze]

For me, I disagree that s7 sucked because there was too much Spike. I'm sorry but s2 was CRAZY Bangel oriented and it's one of the best season. Spike was crucial for most of s7. It's not because there was too much Spike that they decided not to focus on the relationship of the Scoobies. Actually, I think even without Spike, the Scoobies would not have grown back to being as close as s1-3. (Even though I would have liked for them to go back to the roots). Any annoyance with people and the character of Spike I blame on the writers because judging on s2, Buffy's love interest can be a huge part of the season while the group remaining important. As for me, well I'm not bothered by Spuffy so I was fine with the amount of Spike we got.

Also, even though it was the last season, I'm sure they would have brought another male lead to replace him. Most likely I can see Wood taking some of the roles, possibly even being a love interest for Buffy had Spike not been there (although I would have liked for Buffy to simply not have a love interest, but we all know that would have been unlikely).

Aside from that, Spike had such a big role that a lot of the season would have to be re-written. The would have to change Wood's storyline, the First's storyline, Buffy's storyline etc. The overall arc wouldn't change, but a lot of the details, which are to me most important, would be change. The results would be a very different story.

Maybe they could have gotten Faith to do most of the part instead. Get her in right at the beginning of the season and built back the relationship she had with Buffy earlier in s3. Hell, make Faith Buffy's love interest! Now I would have been even happier lol. Joking aside, maybe if they had introduced Faith earlier she would have been ready by the end to wear the amulet. But then, they would need to come up with a way to explain why B isn't wearing it, since if Faith is a "champion", then so is Buffy.

To me, s7 could have benefited from no Spike, but because so much would change, the writers would have needed to go in a much different way, so I can't really say whether that would have been a good thing or not. For now, I'm quite content with Spike being in that season. If it was me, I would have removed other characters before Spike. For example, as much as I like Andrew and Wood, if you remove them, you do have a lot more time to focus on the core four. Spike did take a lot of air time, but so did other characters that were just introduced. I'd rather watch Spike than them developing a whole new character in the final season.

 

[TotallySpiked]

For me Spike was actually a highlight of season 7. I can understand though how someone who doesn't really like him or ship Spuffy can find his inclusion pointless or unnecessary. I actually think the problem with season 7 was inclusion of all the potentials. If anyone came between the core scoobie group, it's them. Let's not forget that Spike has been a main character since season 4 and has had plenty of air time since then so it's unfair to say that his inclusion in season 7 was the reason for their downfall. It would have been there all along if that was the case.
I'm now imagining the 7th season without him and quite frankly, it would suck.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

To me, s7 could have benefited from no Spike, but because so much would change, the writers would have needed to go in a much different way, so I can't really say whether that would have been a good thing or not. For now, I'm quite content with Spike being in that season. If it was me, I would have removed other characters before Spike. For example, as much as I like Andrew and Wood, if you remove them, you do have a lot more time to focus on the core four. Spike did take a lot of air time, but so did other characters that were just introduced. I'd rather watch Spike than them developing a whole new character in the final season.

Wood and Andrew got no where near as much screen time as Spike, We got loads of scenes of a tortured Spike, and spike feeling bad for himself, a whole episode of him killing again, a whole episode of fixing his trigger - that didn't play into the overall season arc that was very underdeveloped, thats two episodes at least that we could have learned more about the potentials which was a story with great potential but kinda fizzled and is now regarded as one of the crappier parts of season 7

For me Spike was actually a highlight of season 7. I can understand though how someone who doesn't really like him or ship Spuffy can find his inclusion pointless or unnecessary. I actually think the problem with season 7 was inclusion of all the potentials. If anyone came between the core scoobie group, it's them. Let's not forget that Spike has been a main character since season 4 and has had plenty of air time since then so it's unfair to say that his inclusion in season 7 was the reason for their downfall. It would have been there all along if that was the case.
I'm now imagining the 7th season without him and quite frankly, it would suck.

He hadn't really been a main character though, in season 4 and 5 he was a background character who provided comedy, it wasn't till season 6 that he became a main proper leading man character. He got plenty of air time from then on, but thats also when people started to complain that the scoobies stopped interacting as much, and season 6 often tops polls we've done on here as the worst season.