Spike or Angel?

[postmortem]

umm... Angelus was a man!slut... Darla was a whore.

Darla's profession was prostitution.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Darla's profession was prostitution.

yes... correct... I was just stating out of all four she's the only one you could refer to as one, not that I normally do.

 

[Schillaci]

Actually I call the a fact from the text:

Becoming Pt1

My apologies.

And if you believe that you spend 100 years killing people and can get over it in a few months, there is no hope for you!

Who said Spike was over it? Have you actually read my posts? Spike wasn't going to let his past deeds define who he was now. I can't believe someone is actually arguing that spending one-****ing-hundred years moping like a spastic is better than actually using your power for good.

I didn't say because Lindsey said it, it was right, but there was truth in what he said, Spike did all his good deeds to impress Buffy

Angels good deeds were to impress the powers that be..

Angel moved away from Buffy, because he was able to see that they could never have a normal life together, something Spike could not, He did it for Buffy. Then in LA he started helping people, and later found out about a prophecy that would make him human but he set up Angel Investigations before that information!

He did it for Buffy?!? You're a funny guy.

Yes, Yes he did, By killing Connor he gave him everything Angel could not. That should not have even been brought up!

To show that love often isn't logical.

I say because that's how you described a whore. You said: "A whore is a person that is sexually promiscuous." Spike and Angelus were sexually promiscuous too. Spike is still sexually promiscuous. Is he a whore? Was Angelus a whore?

Really? Show me where Spike was sexually promiscuous.

 

[Wicked]

Uhm, ok so I didn't say she has slept with other people while she was with Spike. THE SHOW DID.

Well I guess I have a bad memory then. When?

 

[postmortem]

Really? Show me where Spike was sexually promiscuous.

Why? BTVS Season 6 isn't enough for you? Or the casual sexes with Harmony in ATS Season 5?

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Why? BTVS Season 6 isn't enough for you? Or the casual sexes with Harmony in ATS Season 5?

that was while he was IN a relationship... of sorts... with them.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Who said Spike was over it? Have you actually read my posts? Spike wasn't going to let his past deeds define who he was now. I can't believe someone is actually arguing that spending one-****ing-hundred years moping like a spastic is better than actually using your power for good

Yes using your power for good is..."Good", But also showing remorse for the things you have done. Spike did good when he had a chip, But he did not show remorse!

Angels good deeds were to impress the powers that be..

He was not trying to impress the PtB's! They showed him who needed help he helped them, there was no impressing the PtB's. It's also different with Spike, he was doing it for another Human being, with hopes of getting recognition he return.

He did it for Buffy?!? You're a funny guy.

Well I try 😉 No but he did do it for Buffy, Buffy's mom came to him asked him what type of life he could offer Buffy, he realised she was right, and told her they had to break up. Then 2 episodes later he left!

 

[PrincessZombie]

Yes using your power for good is..."Good", But also showing remorse for the things you have done. Spike did good when he had a chip, But he did not show remorse!

Umm...why would Spike be remorseful when he had a chip? And guilt isn't necessarily a good thing. Angel, as much as I love him, often let his guilt cloud his actions. He spent who knows how many years eating rats in an alley, because he felt so guilty. How unproductive is that?

He was not trying to impress the PtB's! They showed him who needed help he helped them, there was no impressing the PtB's. It's also different with Spike, he was doing it for another Human being, with hopes of getting recognition he return.

Okay, well then, Angel was trying to impress the PTBs. And you keep on saying that Spike was trying to impress Buffy. Where are you getting this from?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Umm...why would Spike be remorseful when he had a chip? And guilt isn't necessarily a good thing. Angel, as much as I love him, often let his guilt cloud his actions. He spent who knows how many years eating rats in an alley, because he felt so guilty. How unproductive is that?

I was just pointing out that Spike did good things but did not have a humanness about him, he was still a demon, but he just could not kill people, But he still would have without the chip!

Okay, well then, Angel was trying to impress the PTBs. And you keep on saying that Spike was trying to impress Buffy. Where are you getting this from?

Spike said many times that he did all this for Buffy, Getting the soul, fighting Evil, all for Buffy!

 

[Angel's vision]

Huh? So if she cheated on Spike with one hundred guys she wouldn't be a whore, just a cheater?
A whore is a person that is sexually promiscuous.



I view that as a radical interpretation of the text.




Angel felt sorry for himself for 100 years. I'm sorry, but if thats your view of a good person, a hero, then there is no hope for you.



I think you should go back and watch the show. Spike never helped anyone? Anyone like, Cassie, Willow, Anya, scoobies, Buffy, the list goes on..



Riiiight. If Lindsey says it, then it MUST be true. D'you wan't to talk selfish reasons?
Angel was only helping people so he could get shanshued. So he could be human and live his life with Buffy. After TGIQ he realised he wasn't going to end up with Buffy, so he signed away the crummy prophecy and emotionally blackmailed his friends into commiting suicide with him. Which, is so consistant with his mopey, dopey, the world is woe character.




Angel murdered his own son. Purely from love.

Erm excuse me but Angel DID not emotionally blackmail his friends into helping him ,he GAVE them a choice either your in or out, they did it voluntarily.

Angel did help people to get shanshued true but he learnt that he needed to help people because it WAS the right thing, back in season two.Angel did not want to get shanshued so he could live his life with Buffy, he only went out to Italy to get back in Buffy's good books.
I think Lindsay had a piont though, he was making Spike realise he had to do things alittle different from how he was doing them, i mean calling that woman a retard? Angel was rude in the beggining true but Spike was ruder.
Both Angel and Spike had the idea of helping people from Buffy !

They both started helping people because of Buffy, Angel never concidered the notion till he met her! Niether did Spike.
Lastly Angel signed away the shanshu not because he couldn't be with Buffy but becuaes he realised that the fight against evil is a forever thing it goes on Angel chose to be immortal permanantly so he could continue ,he can't do the hero bit human.

 

[Schillaci]

I was just pointing out that Spike did good things but did not have a humanness about him, he was still a demon, but he just could not kill people, But he still would have without the chip!

I'm sorry, but THAT is one of the dumbest things I have EVER seen written about Spike. The very fact that as a vampire he still had a HUMANITY about him is what DEFINES him. You have little or no understanding of the character.

Spike said many times that he did all this for Buffy, Getting the soul, fighting Evil, all for Buffy!

You're just not getting it. Angel only started fighting evil, BECAUSE OF BUFFY. So how the hell is he any better, or different for that matter, from Spike? They both started fighting evil for the same reasons. Angel season5 shows Spike continues to fight evil without the presense of Buffy.

Erm excuse me but Angel DID not emotionally blackmail his friends into helping him ,he GAVE them a choice either your in or out, they did it voluntarily.

Angel told them he COULDN'T do the plan without them. Don't give me that nonsense about a choice.

Angel did help people to get shanshued true but he learnt that he needed to help people because it WAS the right thing, back in season two.Angel did not want to get shanshued so he could live his life with Buffy, he only went out to Italy to get back in Buffy's good books.

He went to Italy because ultimately, Angel wants to life a live with Buffy. He came back from Italy believing that won't happen.

I think Lindsay had a piont though, he was making Spike realise he had to do things alittle different from how he was doing them, i mean calling that woman a retard? Angel was rude in the beggining true but Spike was ruder.

That woman was a retard. Everything Spike told her was true.

Both Angel and Spike had the idea of helping people from Buffy !

They both started helping people because of Buffy, Angel never concidered the notion till he met her! Niether did Spike.

Exactly.

Lastly Angel signed away the shanshu not because he couldn't be with Buffy but becuaes he realised that the fight against evil is a forever thing it goes on Angel chose to be immortal permanantly so he could continue ,he can't do the hero bit human.

Its a forever thing, eh? Funny how Angel BELIEVES he will die after taking out the Black Thorn. Totally forever..

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm sorry, but THAT is one of the dumbest things I have EVER seen written about Spike. The very fact that as a vampire he still had a HUMANITY about him is what DEFINES him. You have little or no understanding of the character.

Sorry Humanness was the wrong word to use, Spike was still a demon and he showed this, When he hit Buffy and the chip did not go off he thought he could kill again and that's what he went to try and do, he tried to bite a women. While spike does have human like qualities he did not have emotions like guilt or a conscience.

You're just not getting it. Angel only started fighting evil, BECAUSE OF BUFFY. So how the hell is he any better, or different for that matter, from Spike? They both started fighting evil for the same reasons. Angel season5 shows Spike continues to fight evil without the presense of Buffy.

What I said was in answer to this:

And you keep on saying that Spike was trying to impress Buffy. Where are you getting this from?

Angel told them he COULDN'T do the plan without them. Don't give me that nonsense about a choice.

That is absolutely ridicules! They had a choice they've always had a choice. That's what makes them Heroes, a Hero choices to do good things, not because they have to but because they can. And those guys chose to fight, I doubt that they actually thought of it as a choice because they have always made that choice, but still they chose! And if you say that they didn't have a choice and that angel forced them to do it, you are ignorant to everything both series have stood for, and you take away from the whole point of NFA, and Wesleys death
! Angel gave his team a choice in the same way Buffy gave the potentials a choice, and they are Hero's they made the right choice!

That woman was a retard. Everything Spike told her was true

That is true but after someone has just learned that everything you have ever feared could be real, the things that go bump in the night are real, you do not respond to someone in that manner!

 

[Angel's vision]

I think that pj you are being really biased here, granted you are entitled to your opinion but yes Angel did say thet he could not do it without them, but he did give them a choice nonetheless it was an oxymoron statement! He he he he.The only thing i really did not like was the fact that you said he emotionally blackmailed his friends into helping them Angel has never done that ever.

I think that you are being mean ragarding that woman i agree with what beg has said.She had just stumbled onto a world that is scary and you do not talk to people like that!Ok Spike was only starting out, but he could of used some manners, would you like to be spoken to like that if it was you?
Not being nasty just pionting out something, please state your case but don't get testy ok? It offends me that you made that emotional blackmail remark.

As for forever i was going by the commentators,plus Angel said they might not make it so it is possible they may have survived, he just didn't know wether they would.

 

[PrincessZombie]

I think that the things Spike said to that woman weren't that big of a deal. She was walking in a dark alley/street/whatever alone in the middle of the night. That's stupid even if you don't know that vampires and demons exist. She probably won't do anything like that again...😉

 

[postmortem]

that was while he was IN a relationship... of sorts... with them.

It wasn't a relationship that he was in with Harmony in ATS Season 5, it was casual sex. With Buffy, it was only a one-night stand which spreaded to many one-night stands for he blackmailed her.

 

[Schillaci]

Sorry Humanness was the wrong word to use, Spike was still a demon and he showed this, When he hit Buffy and the chip did not go off he thought he could kill again and that's what he went to try and do, he tried to bite a women. While spike does have human like qualities he did not have emotions like guilt or a conscience.

The young woman walks along, still hugging herself, looking nervous. Suddenly Spike steps out in front of her. She screams.

SPIKE: That's right, you should scream.

She tries to get away but he moves to intercept her. She looks scared.

SPIKE: Creature of the night here, yeah? (indicating himself) Some people forget that.

He advances on the woman. She backs away, shaking her head fearfully, backs up against a wall.

WOMAN: Please.
SPIKE: She thinks I'm housebroken. She forgot who she's dealing with.
WOMAN: Anything you want, please-
SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her) That's what I do. I kill. And, yeah, maybe it's been a long time, but ... it's not like you forget how.

He gets up very close to the woman, who is panting fearfully.

SPIKE: You just ... do it. (nervously) And now I can, again, all right? So here goes.

He morphs into vamp face. The woman screams.

SPIKE: This might hurt a little.

It is clear to see from this one scene, that Spike is conflicted. He has to pysche himself up, convince himself to bite her. His humanity is fighting with his vampire instinct. He is fighting the very nature of what he is. Sure, the vampire instinct won out, THIS TIME, but in the end Spike beat it. That, my friend, regardless of whatever reasons you can come up with about him doing so, makes Spike a better man than Angel.

BUFFY Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

And if you want to continue saying Spike only did what he did for Buffy. What of it? What better reason is there to do something than for love?

That is absolutely ridicules! They had a choice they've always had a choice. That's what makes them Heroes, a Hero choices to do good things, not because they have to but because they can. And those guys chose to fight, I doubt that they actually thought of it as a choice because they have always made that choice, but still they chose! And if you say that they didn't have a choice and that angel forced them to do it, you are ignorant to everything both series have stood for, and you take away from the whole point of NFA, and Wesleys death
! Angel gave his team a choice in the same way Buffy gave the potentials a choice, and they are Hero's they made the right choice!

I think that pj you are being really biased here, granted you are entitled to your opinion but yes Angel did say thet he could not do it without them, but he did give them a choice nonetheless it was an oxymoron statement! He he he he.The only thing i really did not like was the fact that you said he emotionally blackmailed his friends into helping them Angel has never done that ever.

Firstly, what choice did Buffy give the potentials? Willows spell activated every single potential around the world.

On Angel, I'm not posting the whole scene, because its quite long, but here is the link to it.
http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/angel_tran_109.shtml

He tells them a long tale about Cordy and Fred, power and choice. He tells them he started this plan two months ago with Cordelia's death. He didn't let Fred'd death be in vain.. he used it to become initiated with the Black Thorn. Now, the point is, while the group were never going to refuse him, I don't believe he should have even come up with this plan in the first place. Its Angels fight. Doyle and Cordelia already died helping Angel, and now he is dragging his only remaining friends to their deaths(and until Whedon shows us otherwise, I believe they all died in the alley). And for what reason?

Angel: We can't bring down the senior partners, but
for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own
us.

Pure arrogance.

That is true but after someone has just learned that everything you have ever feared could be real, the things that go bump in the night are real, you do not respond to someone in that manner!

I think that you are being mean ragarding that woman i agree with what beg has said.She had just stumbled onto a world that is scary and you do not talk to people like that!Ok Spike was only starting out, but he could of used some manners, would you like to be spoken to like that if it was you?
Not being nasty just pionting out something, please state your case but don't get testy ok? It offends me that you made that emotional blackmail remark.

I call my friends retarded all the time. Isnt having someone shout at you better than what Angel originally did. Saved them, and then walked away ignoring them.

As for forever i was going by the commentators,plus Angel said they might not make it so it is possible they may have survived, he just didn't know wether they would.

SPIKE
(walks up to Angel)
What do you think all this means for that Shanshu bugaboo? If we make
it through this, does one of us get to be a real boy?
ANGEL
(crosses his arms)
Who you kidding? We're not gonna make it through.


Joss Whedon said the message of Not Fade Away was "you never stop fighting". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you go into a fight believing you will be beaten, then you will be beaten. Angel doesn't believe for a second that they will survive. He says it several times. Which to me, completely discredits the message of you never stop fighting. Because when you commit suicide(which is pretty much what Angel does, taking his friends with him), you stop fighting.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

yes... correct... I was just stating out of all four she's the only one you could refer to as one, not that I normally do.

postmortem disagrees: "Love's bitch"

what exactly is the "loves bitch" comment in refrence to? Spike being a whore? because a bitch isn't a whore...

It wasn't a relationship that he was in with Harmony in ATS Season 5, it was casual sex. With Buffy, it was only a one-night stand which spreaded to many one-night stands for he blackmailed her.

My mistake, but they had been in a relationship previously. One instance doesn't make a whore.

 

[Angel's vision]

PJ you don't call people retarded and how else would Angel of defeated the black thorn? I could see no other way actually.You are right in saying if you go into fight beiving that you will be beaten you will be beaten, but Joss was saying that they go into the fight and fight wether the odds are against you or not.Like what the wb did to him the situation was hopeless but he went down fighting .That's what i'm saying the situation was hopless for the fang gang but they went out fighting cos the sp's would not of let them just walkaway after putting out the blackthorn which needed to be killed.How else could Angel of seen their faces?The vision didnot reveal to him who they were, so he had to go undercover to see the faces of the Black Thorn.

one bright shining moment we can show them that they don't own us

says to me he was giving W&H a message that they can't pull their strings anymore.
That does not sound like Arrogance to me.That says they are finally standing up for themselves

 

[Black Eye Guy]

He is fighting the very nature of what he is.

No he's not, he is questioning it, it's different

Sure, the vampire instinct won out, THIS TIME, but in the end Spike beat it.

Wrong! Spike got a soul and that's what changed, he had Williams soul. Spike never beat it The last act he did before getting the Soul was attempt to rape Buffy, Spike never beat it! Harmony was a stronger person then Spike, she managed to fight her vampire nature, without the aide of a soul, or being forced to by a chip!

That, my friend, regardless of whatever reasons you can come up with about him doing so, makes Spike a better man than Angel.
And if you want to continue saying Spike only did what he did for Buffy. What of it? What better reason is there to do something than for love?

Spike was in no way a better man, Spike knew the only chance he had with Buffy, as if he got a soul, he never thought of Buffy for a minuet, Angel knew he could not offer her a life and everything she should have because he was a vampire. Spike was so blind to this that he never thought of her for a moment. Spike even after he got his soul was not as good a man as Angel!

Firstly, what choice did Buffy give the potentials? Willows spell activated every single potential around the world.

Think to Buffy's speech she said "Here's the part where you make a choice" Then we see that all those potentials entered the Hellmouth, they chose to fight.

On Angel, I'm not posting the whole scene, because its quite long, but here is the link to it.
http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/angel_tran_109.shtml

Its Angels fight. Doyle and Cordelia already died helping Angel, and now he is dragging his only remaining friends to their deaths

Yes it is his fight, he made sure Fred's death was not in vain, He told then there was a high risk they would die, and they chose to fight!

Pure arrogance.

Eh how? This was not arrogance!

I call my friends retarded all the time.

That's nice, there your friends, they'll know your joking. If your not well then good friendships you've got there.

Isn't having someone shout at you better than what Angel originally did. Saved them, and then walked away ignoring them.

No

Joss Whedon said the message of Not Fade Away was "you never stop fighting". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you go into a fight believing you will be beaten, then you will be beaten. Angel doesn't believe for a second that they will survive. He says it several times. Which to me, completely discredits the message of you never stop fighting. Because when you commit suicide(which is pretty much what Angel does, taking his friends with him), you stop fighting.

You do realise that Angel was the winner of that battle, even if he died in the battle after, he took down the Black Thorn's. That was a victory. They helped Humanity and then had to die(And I'm only saying that because you think they did, I think they would have gotten out of it) as a consequence, That was a sacrifice(Not suicide) they were willing to take.

 

[Schillaci]

No he's not, he is questioning it, it's different
Wrong! Spike got a soul and that's what changed, he had Williams soul. Spike never beat it The last act he did before getting the Soul was attempt to rape Buffy, Spike never beat it! Harmony was a stronger person then Spike, she managed to fight her vampire nature, without the aide of a soul, or being forced to by a chip!

I think you will find the last act Spike did before getting his soul was, fighting to get his soul. Was he still questioning his nature when he travelled all the way to Africa?? Was he not making a conscious effort to be a better man??

Spike was in no way a better man, Spike knew the only chance he had with Buffy, as if he got a soul, he never thought of Buffy for a minuet, Angel knew he could not offer her a life and everything she should have because he was a vampire. Spike was so blind to this that he never thought of her for a moment. Spike even after he got his soul was not as good a man as Angel!

SPIKE
It, uh, it talked to the little boy. Said it wasn't time for me yet. I should
move out. Leave town before it is time for me.
BUFFY
No, you have to stay.
SPIKE
You've got another demon fighter now.
BUFFY
That's not why I need you here.
SPIKE
Is that right? Why's that then?
BUFFY
'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here.

Spike wanted to leave, Buffy told him not to, because SHE needed HIM.

BUFFY
Angel.
He half turns back to her.
BUFFY
I do"¦ sometimes think that far ahead.
ANGEL
Sometimes is something.
BUFFY
It'll be a long time coming. Years, if ever.
ANGEL
(smiles)
I ain't getting any older"¦

Angel is still a vampire in Chosen. He wants to be with Buffy. Exactly how does that fit into your theory?

Angel is a better man than Spike? Really? Tell me one thing Spike did(when he has both a soul and full control of his mind), that is even remotely comparable to Angel locking the lawyers in that room to be murdered?

Yes it is his fight, he made sure Fred's death was not in vain, He told then there was a high risk they would die, and they chose to fight!


Eh how? This was not arrogance!

Ok, this concept might be a bit hard for you to grasp........
Was Liam arrogant? We know Liam did not like being told what to do, he didn't like his father having power over him. So much so, that one of the first things he does as a vampire is to take that power from his father.

Darla: "This contest is ended, is it?"
Angel has his feet up on the table playing with his father's pipe. His family lies dead around him.
Angel: "Now I've won."
Darla: "You're sure?"
Angel puts his feet down and picks up a mug of ale: "Of course. I proved who had the power here."
Darla: "You think?"
Angel: "What?"
Darla: "You're victory over him took but moments."
Angel looks over at the body of his father and gets up: "Yes?"
Darla: "But his defeat of you will last life times."
Angel: "What are you talking about? He can't defeat me now."
Darla: "Nor can he ever approve of you "“ in this world or any other. - What we once were informs all that we have become. (Angel looks at his father's body) The same love will infect our hearts "“ even if they no longer beat. (Angel looks at his mother's and his sister's body) Simple death won't change that."

Was Angelus arrogant? We know Angelus does not like being told what to do. We saw that when Jasmine was in his head. We know Angelus likes to have the power, his relationship with Spike shows us that.

Is Angel arrogant? "What we once were informs all that we have become." Angel doesn't like the SP having power over him. Its very simple.

That's nice, there your friends, they'll know your joking. If your not well then good friendships you've got there.

They act retarded, I tell them. They're not as retarded as you, though.

You do realise that Angel was the winner of that battle, even if he died in the battle after, he took down the Black Thorn's. That was a victory. They helped Humanity and then had to die(And I'm only saying that because you think they did, I think they would have gotten out of it) as a consequence, That was a sacrifice(Not suicide) they were willing to take.

If the show hadn't ended we would have found out, that in fact he didn't help humanity. He brought forth an apocolypse with his arrogance.