Spike Vs Wood - who were you rooting for?

[Taake]

Of course Spike I'd say. I mean I got where Wood was coming from, I just kind of didn't give a rat's tush about him or his pain. I didn't have any particular opinions or feelings for the character at that point and I kind of agreed with Spike. She was a Slayer, Slayer's die. I mean it's harsh but it's true.
Seek vengeance all ya want but it might just come bite ya in the ass. And so it did.
I side with both Buffy and Spike in the matter. Wood was too focused on his own personal vendetta.

 

[Vengeance]

I'm all for vengeance but Wood was revenging himself on a guy that no longer existed. I'm glad Wood got some good shots in (certainly he deserved to knock him around a little) but I'm more glad that Spike won.

edit: thanks to Lyri, she did an amazing job 🙂

 

[Professor Walsh]

To be honest I feel a bit the same about this episode and "Destiny" - they get so pathetically much like a cockfight that I have a hard time rooting for either of the fighting parts. I didn't want either to die, apart from that I was pretty much thinking "How pathetic are you?!?"

 

[TheChosenTwo]

I love Spike, and I never wanted him to be killed, but I can understand Wood. Spike had killed his mom. I'd be just as mad and I wouldn't give a $%!@ if the guy had a soul or not. I was kinda annoyed by Buffy too. "He has a soul now..." Like you care when someone killed your mom.
Okay, maybe Spike couldn't help it, not having a soul and all, but I think it's understandable.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Absolutely rooted for Spike. I have no sympathy for vengeance, at all, especially if it involves carefully laid out ambush plans and cold-blooded murder.

Spike more than made up for anything he "owed" Wood (which I don't think he did in the first place - Slayer, vampire, that's the game; I 100% back Spike's logic there) by allowing him to live after attempting to murder him, "on account of I killed his mum". IMO that's a mighty decent thing to do. Wood owes him his life now, and he should be grateful he was allowed to walk away alive, once. Spike would have had no complaint coming from me for just snapping his neck and be done with it if Wood ever tried it again, so I always give Buffy a "Go, Girl!" at the "More importantly, I will let him" part.

I guess Wood's anger is subconsciously at Nikki for leaving him, not at Spike... and in his usual bluntly in-your-face way, Spike told him where to stick the attitude. Cool guy. 😎

 

[pieceofgosa]

I've always disliked the character of Robin Wood, so the answer to the question posed in the thread title is a resounding Spike. The reason I could never get with Wood is that his sudden appearance makes me ask questions I don't like to think about too much. How did Nikki manage to have a kid while being the Slayer? Did she have the kid before she was called? Is there an age limit that a potential will hit after which they will no longer be called? How long was she the Slayer? I don't really care about any of those things but characters like Wood make me think about them. As for the whole trying to whack Spike thing, I get why he would want to. I think we can all get that, but time & a place bro, world ending, need Spike, suck it up.

 

[dan k]

Spike all the way for me. We didn't really have a lot of time to warm to Wood as a character whereas in the case of Spike i'd loved his wit and evilness from the start. Spike also had a lot more depth and his relationship with Buffy interested me a whole lot more then Wood's romance with Faith.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

ANGEL (re: Holtz to Aubrey): You're right to protect him. Holtz is one of the good guys. He has every right to hate me. And if he ever - comes close to one of my people ever again, or tries to touch a hair on my son's head - I'll kill him - and anyone who gets in the way. You might wanna mention that.


**


Spike (to Wood, dialogue we're obviously familiar with): I know slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the chosen one. The rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.

Robin: No, she loved me.

Spike:
But not enough to quit, though, was it? Not enough to walk away... for you. I'll tell you a story about a mother and son. See, like you, I loved my mother. So much so I turned her into a vampire... so we could be together forever. She said some nasty bits to me after I did that. Been weighing on me for quite some time. But you helped me figure something out. You see, unlike you, I had a mother who loved me back. When I sired her, I set loose a demon, and it tore into me, but it was the demon talking, not her. I realize that now. My mother loved me with all her heart. I was her world.
**


I'm not sure how anyone who has seen Angel season 3 can say Angel gets a free pass then can watch Buffy season 7 and not say that about Spike, especially after Lies My Parents Told Me. Both of them had the right to defend themselves, but at least Angel didn't pussy out, deny responsibility, and blame his victims.

 

[InsaneMystic]

It's really different, though. Angelus "artfully" slaughtered Holtz' family, who were innocent bystanders. If he had just killed Holtz, himself (the guy was a vamp hunter back then already, right? I'm a bit fuzzy on the timeline, been a while since I last saw AtS S3), he'd have no complaint coming from me either.

The sitch would only be parallel if Spike back in the 70s had killed kid Robin, and it would have been Nikki (or, arguably, her watcher) coming back for avenging the boy's death. I very much doubt Spike would've given a "I don't care piss about the kid" line, then.

 

[Kana]

It's really different, though. Angelus "artfully" slaughtered Holtz' family, who were innocent bystanders. If he had just killed Holtz, himself (the guy was a vamp hunter back then already, right? I'm a bit fuzzy on the timeline, been a while since I last saw AtS S3), he'd have no complaint coming from me either.

The sitch would only be parallel if Spike back in the 70s had killed kid Robin, and it would have been Nikki (or, arguably, her watcher) coming back for avenging the boy's death. I very much doubt Spike would've given a "I don't care piss about the kid" line, then.

Interesting actually...

With Wood, the two of them have a simple one on one fight, much like the fight between Spike and Nikki. Like Holtz, Wood finds that the person from whom he seeks revenge to be different from the former persona. Wood does attempt to seperate the demon from the man.

Holtz again sees that Angel is a person who is able to feel remorse and emotion however he uses it to his advantage. Like Angelus he goes for the hurt rather than the kill.

While I do not condone what either of them did, to me Holtz is a greater liability to cause than Wood. Wood isn't looking to directly harm anyone else and able to give a reasonable (if somewhat flawed) Ulititarian argument. Although killing Spike was extreme, sticking one's fingers in one's ears wasn't going to help matters.

Holtz greatest argument would be to protect Connor. However he was still willing to kill and sacrifice others for his vengeance. So yes, you are right it's different but in more than one sense.

Also I tend to side a little with Angel in terms of how he deals with it. He does show at least some understanding towards Holtz because whether he's responsible or not he show compassion through identification. In short because he was now a father he understood.

This where Spike initially surprises me because, like Angel, he should be able to understand how Wood feels and he does but uses it against him in the worst possible way. Both mothers loved their sons but because of circumstances, the relationship was cut short. We cannot blame Anne because it's difficult to judge the subsequent vampire against the preceeding human and Nikki was a good person trying to protect others, soulledSpike had no right to judge her as a Slayer or a mother.

Also I can't understand why Spike still wore the jacket!!! Actually I can: From the outside the show perspective, it was all about the look and image but from the inside the show perspective, well initially Spike does ditch the jacket but more because he didn't want to associate himself with his demon side, more or less for Buffy's benefit (he more or less said so himself) but he wears it again to be the badass demon he believes he needs to be again more or less because Buffy told him to. I started respecting soulledSpike more when he got more of a sense of himself.

What made me respect Spike at the end of the ep though is when he said he gave Wood a pass on account of what he did to his mother. To me this is tactile proof that both Angel and Spike felt guilty about the past but deal with it in different ways.

 

[crazysoulless]

I understood Holtz need for vengeance more. He lost his family as an adult. To go out into the world, suffer hardships, fight the good fight, but then fall in love, marry, have children, to have something innocent and warm that gave him a reason to know being a demon hunter was worth it and to have a safe haven from the violence, only for it all to be taken away and being left with nothing. He had no reason to live and became a shell of his former self. Angel raped Holtz's wife, murdered her, and turned his daughter into a soulless demon and forced Holtz to have to kill her, and then he bragged to Holtz about how tasty their blood was ("especially the little one") and about how he raped Holtz's wife ("You're wife, she kept repeating *saying Bible verses* on us, of course, I repeated on her *raped* a few times myself"). It was made so much worse by the fact that it seemed like Angel and Darla (she happily assisted with the torture, massacre) were still a couple and that they got to have a child.

Wood was four years old when he lost his mother. I felt like he was more upset over losing the things he thought he would have had if she had lived. That he didn't sign on to be raised without a mother.

I did have a lot of sympathy for Robin until he found out it was Spike that killed his mother. You could tell that it changed the way he saw Buffy and when the seal brought out his rage he called her a filthy whore for having been involved with Spike. He tried to undermine her position as the leader/General that can make tough decisions and think of the mission first. I loved when she said "it's the mission that matters" since he got Giles to help him with his personal vendetta by acting as if it were all about the mission when it wasn't and because that statement is something that Niki would say. Buffy didn't just go into the Room With Wall to Wall Crosses and threaten to let Spike kill him if he ever attempted to murder Spike again. She first told him about how she lost her own mother, said she understood why he did what he did, reminded him of the war with the FE (remember she did have a vision of thousands of Turak-Hans in Hell on their way up to slaughter them all) and that they would need Spike (the second best fighter) if they were going to survive, etc.

No, Buffy should NOT have more time for personal vendettas. She forgave Willow, Spike, Andrew, Faith, and Anya for their crimes and would not have let someone plot to murder them while they were under her roof and "reformed". The morale in that house was really bad already with Annabelle taking off and getting killed, Chloe hanging herself in one of the bedrooms, the FE posing as a slain Potential "Eve" and trying to get them to not trust Buffy, posing as Joyce to get Dawn to not trust Buffy, Willow afraid all year to do serious magicks thinking it'll turn her into a homicidal killer (its why Buffy said that she was the most powerful one in the room because Will wasn't using the power that she had), Spike not wanting to even kill demons until what Buffy said to him in GID, etc.

 

[pieceofgosa]

cs, as usual a well-written & intelligent post. The thing with Wood & Holtz is that neither of them is really angry with the people/demons they claim to want vengeance on. Wood, as has been pointed out, is mad at his Mom for choosing her sacred duty over him. Holtz is mad at himself, for choosing his sacred duty over his family. In Holtz case I think this is borne out by his choice not to kill Angel but to kidnap Connor, in his mind this time he chooses family over duty. There is further evidence for this in his final act. Yes he makes it look as if Angel attacked & killed him, but he effectively commits suicide. This final act of contrition demonstrates his desire to punish himself & Angel, the two people he holds responsible for the death of his family. By the end Holtz not only hates Angel for what he did, but he hates himself for what he allowed to happen & what he's allowed himself to become.

 

[Kana]

I understood Holtz need for vengeance more. He lost his family as an adult. To go out into the world, suffer hardships, fight the good fight, but then fall in love, marry, have children, to have something innocent and warm that gave him a reason to know being a demon hunter was worth it and to have a safe haven from the violence, only for it all to be taken away and being left with nothing. He had no reason to live and became a shell of his former self. Angel raped Holtz's wife, murdered her, and turned his daughter into a soulless demon and forced Holtz to have to kill her, and then he bragged to Holtz about how tasty their blood was ("especially the little one") and about how he raped Holtz's wife ("You're wife, she kept repeating *saying Bible verses* on us, of course, I repeated on her *raped* a few times myself"). It was made so much worse by the fact that it seemed like Angel and Darla (she happily assisted with the torture, massacre) were still a couple and that they got to have a child.

Wood was four years old when he lost his mother. I felt like he was more upset over losing the things he thought he would have had if she had lived. That he didn't sign on to be raised without a mother.

I did have a lot of sympathy for Robin until he found out it was Spike that killed his mother. You could tell that it changed the way he saw Buffy and when the seal brought out his rage he called her a filthy whore for having been involved with Spike. He tried to undermine her position as the leader/General that can make tough decisions and think of the mission first. I loved when she said "it's the mission that matters" since he got Giles to help him with his personal vendetta by acting as if it were all about the mission when it wasn't and because that statement is something that Niki would say. Buffy didn't just go into the Room With Wall to Wall Crosses and threaten to let Spike kill him if he ever attempted to murder Spike again. She first told him about how she lost her own mother, said she understood why he did what he did, reminded him of the war with the FE (remember she did have a vision of thousands of Turak-Hans in Hell on their way up to slaughter them all) and that they would need Spike (the second best fighter) if they were going to survive, etc.

No, Buffy should NOT have more time for personal vendettas. She forgave Willow, Spike, Andrew, Faith, and Anya for their crimes and would not have let someone plot to murder them while they were under her roof and "reformed". The morale in that house was really bad already with Annabelle taking off and getting killed, Chloe hanging herself in one of the bedrooms, the FE posing as a slain Potential "Eve" and trying to get them to not trust Buffy, posing as Joyce to get Dawn to not trust Buffy, Willow afraid all year to do serious magicks thinking it'll turn her into a homicidal killer (its why Buffy said that she was the most powerful one in the room because Will wasn't using the power that she had), Spike not wanting to even kill demons until what Buffy said to him in GID, etc.

As said, I don't condone what either Holtz or Wood did but although Holtz had arguably been caused more injury, the injury he caused or was willing to cause was a lot worse. I would go as far as to saying Holtz is a tragic hero turned villian but Wood (although not nearly as interesting as Holtz) was a misguided hero or a hero who lost his way. That could include Buffy, Angel or any of our heroes at any one time. The main difference is Holtz didn't simply lose his mission he made vegeance his sole mission and was willing to hurt or kill virtually anyone who got in his way, I'm not sure if the same can apply to Wood.

 

[crazysoulless]

It some ways I think that makes Holtz more sympathetic. He lost EVERYTHING when his family was tortured and killed. He didn't just lose the people he loved. He lost himself. His belief that there is good in the world. His ability to maintain a balance between demon hunting and being a human in the world. His morality. He became blinded and consumed by vengeance. There was no part of his life that didn't include heartbreak, bitterness, guilt, anger, and a numbing depression. Without his need for vengeance, he felt he might as well be dead. His anchor to life was gone.

Wood was still a person who made friends, went to school, had a good career, laughed, went on dates, had sex, and basically lived his life. Losing his mother didn't destroy him. And yet he still risked fracturing the Giles/Buffy relationship, taking away the second strongest fighter (Spike) when he knew what kind of demonic horde was on the way, undermining Buffy's position as leader despite saying she reminds him of his mother and knowing that she has been the Slayer for nearly a decade.

 

[Kana]

It some ways I think that makes Holtz more sympathetic. He lost EVERYTHING when his family was tortured and killed. He didn't just lose the people he loved. He lost himself. His belief that there is good in the world. His ability to maintain a balance between demon hunting and being a human in the world. His morality. He became blinded and consumed by vengeance. There was no part of his life that didn't include heartbreak, bitterness, guilt, anger, and a numbing depression. Without his need for vengeance, he felt he might as well be dead. His anchor to life was gone.

Oh he's definitely more tragic but part of the tragedy is the path he chose. It's not just what happens that defines us, it's the choices we make.

Wood was still a person who made friends, went to school, had a good career, laughed, went on dates, had sex, and basically lived his life. Losing his mother didn't destroy him. And yet he still risked fracturing the Giles/Buffy relationship, taking away the second strongest fighter (Spike) when he knew what kind of demonic horde was on the way, undermining Buffy's position as leader despite saying she reminds him of his mother and knowing that she has been the Slayer for nearly a decade

Yes and his crimes were somewhat proportionate to those things. I don't hold him responsible for what happened between Giles and Buffy as that was between the two of them. The issues between them actually existed before that episode but it brought them to light.

Wood did make a mistake but he didn't stay on the path of vengeance.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I can't imagine routing for anyone against Spike. Even in Angel in Destiny I was rooting for Spike, even though at the end all he "won" was a sip of Mountain Dew. So I was totally rooting for Spike (and already knew he lived so I wasn't worried - plus I never would've thought Wood could take Spike even if I didn't know he lived). I was glad Wood didn't die though. I hated him at first, because i didn't want anyone dating Buffy if Spike couldn't have her 😉 But I couldn't maintain it. I really like him as a character (and I love the actor - i remember him from 24). He was able to put his need for vengeance aside after that. He made a mistake and he moved on. I understand why he wanted to kill Spike. I respected him for wanting to fight the demon in him, not the good guy with a soul. He couldn't quite accept that Spike was a good guy, but the unsouled Spike did kill his mommy so it's understandable, all those years of needing vengeance only to find that the guy who did it is a good guy now. That has to be a let down in a way. I love, love, love Wood & Faith together. He's the only guy I ever saw really handle her (Angel aside -their relationship was platonic and that's different). I don't read the comics, so I go on pretending they kept things going after leaving Sunnydale.

 

[crazysoulless]

While he didn't start the rift between Giles & Buffy he did further it along and had he been able to kill Spike I'm not sure if Buffy would have been able to ever forgive Giles for his role in it. Wood went to Giles and tried to get him to question Buffy's leadership and her ability to think with her head instead of her heart. (it's funny that some fans that season think she was being an emotional codependent female while others saw her as a coldhearted bitca, I saw her as neither)

I could actually forgive him easier for trying to kill a souled Spike (there were only two souled vamps so it was hard for people to get the concept that they are and aren't the same person that existed pre-soul) than for holding a grudge against Buffy (he is noticably different towards her) for the second half of the series. The fact that he said "I believe Faith was talking" even though he knows she is an ex-killer that betrayed Buffy many times. He tried to kill Spike but wouldn't even let Buffy interrupt Faith? He sided with her and even got pissed off when Faith said she wished Buffy was still there to lead because she was better at it. The timig of his firing Buffy was shady. Yes, there were hardly students left but the fact that it happened her very first day back after the LMPTM incident makes it seem like part of it had to do with that. Not believing in any of Buffy's plans and being shocked when she turns out to have saved the day.

I didn't like Wood/Faith. He was calling her a good leader before she ever lead. He is clearly smarter and knows it and also spent the entire season intellectually flirting with Buffy. He didn't seem like the kind of guy that would jump into bed with someone. It took him months to ask Buffy out on a date and he took her to a fancy french restaraunt. I didn't see what he had in common with Faith.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

...than for holding a grudge against Buffy (he is noticably different towards her) for the second half of the series. The fact that he said "I believe Faith was talking" even though he knows she is an ex-killer that betrayed Buffy many times. He tried to kill Spike but wouldn't even let Buffy interrupt Faith? He sided with her and even got pissed off when Faith said she wished Buffy was still there to lead because she was better at it. The timig of his firing Buffy was shady.

So you wouldn't be angry at someone who said they would let you die because she thinks her super awesome boyfriend's soul is better than yours? (That's what it seemed like she was saying/implying in her dialogue. Frankly, I would think Willow was stronger than Spike.) 😕 I thought his anger was understandable. Also, he didn't have the same history with Faith so while he had the same information about her he couldn't have known exactly what it meant, if that makes sense.

 

[crazysoulless]

She wasn't saying she was picking Spike the person over him and thought Spike was better as a person. She was saying that Spike was needed if they were going to survive the attack made by the First Evil. Spike was the second best fighter in the group. By choosing Spike she was choosing "the mission" over "a need for revenge".

Willow didn't count as being strong because she didn't want to use magick anymore. That was her season long arc. She was afraid of doing spells and powerful magicks thinking it would turn her evil and that she would kill everyone. That is why in GID Buffy says that she is the most powerful in the group because she USES HER POWER. Having the kind of magickal reserve that Willow had but resorting to her S1 persona and thus being another person that needs to be protected by Buffy instead of a powerful ally.

 

[Kana]

While he didn't start the rift between Giles & Buffy he did further it along and had he been able to kill Spike I'm not sure if Buffy would have been able to ever forgive Giles for his role in it. Wood went to Giles and tried to get him to question Buffy's leadership and her ability to think with her head instead of her heart. (it's funny that some fans that season think she was being an emotional codependent female while others saw her as a coldhearted bitca, I saw her as neither)

If Giles wasn't questioning her leadership in the first place then Wood wouldn't have anything to work with. Not to get off topic but in terms of the problems with Buffy and the scoobies all the cracks were there already.

I could actually forgive him easier for trying to kill a souled Spike (there were only two souled vamps so it was hard for people to get the concept that they are and aren't the same person that existed pre-soul) than for holding a grudge against Buffy (he is noticably different towards her) for the second half of the series.

I noticed that too. I suppose it's hard when you've been carrying around something for years and someone just says "suck it up". I was definitely different but he still didn't let vegeance define him like Holtz did.

The fact that he said "I believe Faith was talking" even though he knows she is an ex-killer that betrayed Buffy many times. He tried to kill Spike but wouldn't even let Buffy interrupt Faith? He sided with her and even got pissed off when Faith said she wished Buffy was still there to lead because she was better at it. The timig of his firing Buffy was shady.

Again agreed about his attitude towards Buffy, he was clearly still reeling. I'm not so fussed about his firing Buffy. His argument was sound, Buffy needed to focus on her mission

I didn't like Wood/Faith. He was calling her a good leader before she ever lead. He is clearly smarter and knows it and also spent the entire season intellectually flirting with Buffy. He didn't seem like the kind of guy that would jump into bed with someone. It took him months to ask Buffy out on a date and he took her to a fancy french restaraunt. I didn't see what he had in common with Faith.

I too don't see Faith and Wood as long term but I don't think it's a coincidence that he was attracted to Slayers, Freud would be proud.