Spike's "attempted rape" of Buffy in Seeing Red

[The Arcane]

Buffy successfully threw Spike off, in any case, if the woman showed greater physical presence the man would think twice. This is the time that gave Spike time to have is Epiphany...he didnt have it becauseBuffy fought him off,he had because he saw that if he carried on, Buffy could have bested him.

I'm sorry but there is no proof of that. Buffy got in a lucky kick and temporarily set him back but she was clearly wounded and, at the best of times, Spike was a match for her. It was obvious to anyone that if he had continued Buffy would have had a very hard time in defending herself.

Had he wanted to he could (and would) have continued. He chose not to, not because it wasn't possible, but because it wasn't what he wanted.

Again this is one of the worser arguments.
MOST rapes are because the man 'truly believed' the woman wanted it..........

And, again, you are talking about men, this is a discussion about a vampire. The men that supposedly believed the woman wanted are are either lying or sick in the head. A vampire, especially in the circumstances of the relationship he had with Buffy, cannot be judges using those criteria.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm sorry but i'm a little lost as to the point you are trying to make. You can't really put forward that Spike is a different species and then use that to judge him by the laws of our species, which don't apply to him anyway.

My point is that because its inherently wrong for inter-species, its the 'residual' humanity within him that goes for the rape, and as its the human part that is doing it, thats why Spike can be held accountable, and why it IS attempted rape.

Like i stated, had it been him feeding then it was his Vampiric nature, but it wasn't, it was something fundementally wrong.

Vampires are a different species by nature. What exists inside is very different to human. But physically they are the same as when they were still alive. Just because they cannot (usually) have children does not change that they have all the right parts. Vampires still have the sexual urges they had as human beings, the difference is in how they feel about the person they have sex with.

That doesnt change the fact that Spike, who believes himself a man to an extent because thats how Buffy treated him, used that human side, those human emotions to attempt this act.

If we are going to go this route then you have to assume Buffy and Angel were wrong to have sex together (he was a vampire too, after all) and that Buffy was wrong to have sex with Spike in the first place. This takes us into a whole other debate.

I never ever defended Angel and Buffy or Spike and Buffy, because it IS wrong on a basic level...only difference...Consensual.

Again, all that still doesn't alter the main point of the argument, that Spike did not set out to rape Buffy simply because of the nature of what he was inside.

No, he didnt set out to, BUT at the point in the Bathroom, he made the decision thats what he wanted, and to hell with her pleads of no.

I'm sorry but there is no proof of that. Buffy got in a lucky kick and temporarily set him back but she was clearly wounded and, at the best of times, Spike was a match for her. It was obvious to anyone that if he had continued Buffy would have had a very hard time in defending herself.

There is no proof that this 'epiphany' you mention came at that moment either, infact we see a Furious Spike leaving.......we don't know at what point he makes the decision to search for his soul, just that it comes after.
What we do know for fact is that Spike ISNT a match physically for Buffy. The very nature of the Slayer is to be better then a Vampire.

And, again, you are talking about men, this is a discussion about a vampire. The men that supposedly believed the woman wanted are are either lying or sick in the head. A vampire, especially in the circumstances of the relationship he had with Buffy, cannot be judges using those criteria.

A Vampire whose boundries of Humanity/Vampire are so blurred, the creator of the show has stated his feelings are based in the human world due to him being abnormal.
Using the 'Spikes' a vampire argument only works IF he is simply a Vampire, with no obvious signs of emotional levels....BUT Spike shows these, he shows human tendancies, he shows human qualities......thus he is accountable for his 'human' acts. And attempted Rape, in this case, is a human act.

 

[The Arcane]

Okay, i'm beginning to understand the point you are trying to make. We are debating this from two different standpoints because of how we view the vampire differently.

I do not believe that the vampire demon inside the human host has any intelligence of it's own. The demon is pure demonic nature with no personality or independant thought. When a human becomes a vampire you are not talking about a total switch in personality, just a change of viewpoint.

When a human is reborn as a vampire their human soul (their humanity) is replaced by the urges of the vampiric nature of the beast within. However the human personality remains intact, just under a different moral viewpoint.

They have become something new but they were still once human. The difference is now that they are morally ambiguous due to a lack of soul and the presence of a demonic nature within them.

Think of Anya and the other humans we know of that were turned into demons. They hold a similar moral ambiguity, once they have become demons, but we still accept that they are, at the centre, a continuation of the being they were in human form. Vampires are turned into demons in a different way but the nature of what they become is the same.

So, the psychology of a being, whilst a vampire, is still not going to be the same as that of a man, no matter how you cut it.

All i am trying to point out is that Spike was not able to think along the same lines as a human male would have under those exact same circumstances. He wasn't capable of that. He was a demon. Not a human being with a demon intelligence inside. A dead human that was now an evil entity, not governed by the laws and beliefs of mankind.

Just as a side note, even if slightly off topic, a slayer may be "meant" to be better than a vampire, but the very fact that they generally die so young proves without doubt that they aren't always going to be. They may be the equal of a vampire in power but even the best slayer can lose, given the right circumstance.

 

[THE BLUE]

It was a rape..............

 

[The Arcane]

It was a rape..............

Even if i didn't believe all the points that i've previously made in this thread (which i obviously do) the very fact that Spike didn't actually get to complete the act means that it could only ever have been considered attempted rape, even if you could fairly judge him by human law (which you can't).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't think Buffy was a match for Bufffy it was shown throughout the series that Buffy was better than Spike, she had no problem defeating him!

And I really disagree with you that Spike can't feel guilt, you can plainly see it on his face afterwards that he is feeling guilty.
And the just because Spike did not go for Buffy again, does not justify his actions if she had not kicked him off he would have continued. I believe that it was the realisation of what he was doing and the realisation of who Buffy was,The Slayer, who is stronger then him that made Spike stop!

 

[The Arcane]

I don't think Buffy was a match for Bufffy it was shown throughout the series that Buffy was better than Spike, she had no problem defeating him!

And I really disagree with you that Spike can't feel guilt, you can plainly see it on his face afterwards that he is feeling guilty.
And the just because Spike did not go for Buffy again, does not justify his actions if she had not kicked him off he would have continued. I believe that it was the realisation of what he was doing and the realisation of who Buffy was,The Slayer, who is stronger then him that made Spike stop!

No slayer is, by default, better than any vampire. Their training helps them to succeed in most cases but ultimately it's going to be an even match. Otherwise slayers would live to ripe old ages, rather than being killed off whilst still young. Buffy has been defeated by vamps with much less skill and ability than Spike, a vampire than has previously bested two slayers already. He beat Buffy the first time they fought and could possibly have killed her has her mum not stepped into help.

Buffy was already injured that night, this was made very clear, giving Spike a huge advantage. He could have continued to fight her and eventually gained the upper hand. He chose not to.

And yes, immediately after the act and after understanding that what he was doing was wrong, that Buffy was not going to give in, he appeared confused and almost guilty for what he had done. I conceded that right from the start. This was his true turning point. The act that caused him to regain his soul. Not because he realised Buffy was stronger, that night she clearly wasn't, but because something inside him awoke and he realised what he had become.

 

[THE BLUE]

the very fact that Spike didn't actually get to complete the act means that it could only ever have been considered attempted rape, even if you could fairly judge him by human law (which you can't).

The very fact that Spike didn't actually get to complete the act means that he was planning/intending/meaning/aiming to rape her. Just because he didn't succeed, doesn't caese the fact that it was his plan or intend. And if you plan an act, as you put it, it is 1st degree crime (like 1st degree murder) and it is punished with the maximum punishment. And I can fairly judge him by human law, because I'm human. And don't forget that vampires in Buffyverse is judged by human law, that's why Angel is repenting, otherwise, why would he?

 

[The Arcane]

The very fact that Spike didn't actually get to complete the act means that he was planning/intending/meaning/aiming to rape her. Just because he didn't succeed, doesn't caese the fact that it was his plan or intend. And if you plan an act, as you put it, it is 1st degree crime (like 1st degree murder) and it is punished with the maximum punishment. And I can fairly judge him by human law, because I'm human. And don't forget that vampires in Buffyverse is judged by human law, that's why Angel is repenting, otherwise, why would he?

No, i'm sorry but you edited my post there to change what i meant. If you read what i put myself you will see i said "Even if i didn't believe all the points i previously made in this thread ...".

The fact is that i disagree with what you claimed entirely, it wasn't a rape attack at all, but even if i didn't believe that the fact is that he didn't complete it. Therefore it could only ever have been, at worst, attempted rape.

I still maintain that it wasn't even that, however.

 

[THE BLUE]

So, what was it? A show-me-your-love-because-I-love-you moment?


And I did not change your post, it is there.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

There is no question in my mind that it was attempted rape! It was, there is no other way to put it, from the moment he started in the bathroom until Buffy kicked him off his intention was to have sex with Buffy, it is clear in his eyes what he is attempting, and you can see the determination on his face! And since it was against her will that makes it attempted rape!

 

[The Arcane]

So, what was it? A show-me-your-love-because-I-love-you moment?


And I did not change your post, it is there.

No, i said you edited my post, as part of your own. If somebody had read that part rather than the whole of the original it would have given the wrong impression of what i was saying. That's all.

As for what i personally believe this event was really about, you need only read the rest of my comments in this thread to understand that. There is no point me posting it all again.

 

[The Arcane]

Actually i read every word of what everyone posts here, whether they agree with me or not. The point of debating a subject though is to have an opinion and stand by it until you see evidence you are incorrect.

Most of the arguments presented to me here have not convinced me to do so and as such i give the opposite side of the argument, as i see it to be true.

I'm more than willing to admit i'm wrong when someone proves me so. In my honest opinion, so far, nobody has.

Okay, let's add another dimension to the debate. If Spike had done this, under the exact same conditions, to Drusilla, given the fact that she holds the same lack of regard for humans that he does, would it still be rape? If Spike forced himself onto Drusilla, would anyone have made such a big deal about it?

 

[Tucker's Cousin]

It was attempted rape. There's no other way that it can be viewed.

Having said that, it wasn't about the sex or power or any of those things that rapists are usually in it for. Spike genuinely believed that if he could get Buffy to have sex with him again then she'd like it and they'd have some semblance of a relationship going again. That was what he was truly after. He loved her and wanted her back and thought that what he was doing was going to bring that about.

I don't think the fact that she may have beat him up was what stopped him either. The kick gave him a chance to pause and see the distress and pain she was suffering. That was not part of his plan, she was supposed to realise that she enjoyed it. The fact that the opposite was happening made him give up and leave in frustration. It's some time later that he realises that if he truly wanted her to love him, not just as a sexual partner, then he'd have to become a better 'man'. And so his quest to regain his soul ensued.

None of this excuses what he did. He was still trying to force a girl to have sex with him against her will. By any judgement, that's attempted rape. At best he might get some leniency because of his motives and remorse after the fact.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Well, I'd say it was attempted rape. Spike never fully raped Buffy. She pushed him away. And what did Buffy say, "He tried to rape me" Not exact words but close............key word: tried!!!!

 

[VisionGuy]

Yeah, I agree that it was ATTEMPTED rape. You can't go around saying he raped her physically if he didn't get anything inserted. If someone shoots you but you're still living, are you going to go around saying "Oh, he murdered me."

I see the points that everyone are making in their posts and they are all very good points but Spike didn't rape Buffy. He TRIED to rape her but failed when Buffy kicked him. So he didn't actually rape anybody.

 

[eponinethen]

None of this excuses what he did. He was still trying to force a girl to have sex with him against her will. By any judgement, that's attempted rape. At best he might get some leniency because of his motives and remorse after the fact.

True, it doesn't excuse what he did. Nothing is an excuse for rape (or attempting to rape someone, of course). What he did was wrong. But that is not the point of this arguement. The point is that since Spike wasn't human, he had no soul, we can't say that is was personally his fault, we can't blame the "person" he is in s7 for what the soulless demon did in season 6.. That is not in any way excusing what he did. It is not saying that rape can ever be ok.. It's just saying that unfortunately we can't really blame Spike, because he is a vampire without a soul (which sort of means we can never trust him, never count on him to act like a man would in this situation).

(Ok I'm just repeating myself. Seems like most people are in this thread..)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But to a certain degree Spike can be held accountable for what was done in season 6, I mean the Vampire is a mixture of the Demon and the Human it was, part of that person is still in the demon, if it wasn't Spike and Angel would not have felt guilty for all the thing their vampire selves had done (Not sure if that made sense), Like if the Vampire and the Human were totally separate then Angel and Spike would not feel guilty and seek redemption after they get souls!

And yeah everyone is repeating them selves, lol, cuz everyone is trying to change what another is thinking, but like so many questions we can't find an answer, because it is a matter of opinion!

 

[eponinethen]

But to a certain degree Spike can be held accountable for what was done in season 6, I mean the Vampire is a mixture of the Demon and the Human it was, part of that person is still in the demon, if it wasn't Spike and Angel would not have felt guilty for all the thing their vampire selves had done (Not sure if that made sense), Like if the Vampire and the Human were totally separate then Angel and Spike would not feel guilty and seek redemption after they get souls!

Well, I agree in a way, of course Spike (the vampire) is partly a person as well as a demon. But when you talk about Angel/Angelus.. In AtS, it is quite obvious that Angel has got nothing to do with what Angelus does. Even his friends tell him that they understand that Angelus is something completely different and that they can't blame that on Angel.
Now, I think Spike is a little bit different. But still, vampires have no soul, which is why they can do these things, and that moral thing that pops up in our heads telling us it's wrong.. that doesn't happen to vampires. If they think about it they know that it's wrong, but they're meant to do "wrong", and even though Spike at this point in BtVS is trying not to – he is a vampire, and can't get away from that..

And yeah everyone is repeating them selves, lol, cuz everyone is trying to change what another is thinking, but like so many questions we can't find an answer, because it is a matter of opinion!

I disagree actually, lol. I mean yeah, it's fine as long as it's a matter of opinion (like now), but in many parts of this thread it seems like we're discussing different things 😉

 

[Caritas]

What I think is missing from the logic of the argument against it being rape is a solid template for what a vampire is in the whole Whedon mythology. It looks to me, form what I've seen, that a vampire is a creature of reason like a human, but lacks a soul (which generally in Whedon mythology seems to be very similar to a concience, although it's more than that). A vampire is absolutely capable of doing good deeds (Spike did them, and Harmony does a few in season 5 of Angel) and knowing the diference, intelectually at least, between right and wrong . What seems to be the case is that they have a natural predisposition toward wrong because they have the essence of a demon governing their actions rather than a soul. But where did this idea that it EXCUSES them from wrong come from. Someone said that we naturally accept that vampries feed on people because they are food to them... I never saw anyone accept that in the entire series... it was awlays viewed as wrong even though vampires have no soul. The lack of a soul does not change the nature of the crime, because Spike was obviously capable of making the correct choice. He made correct choices time and again that had nothing to do with a chip in his head. We wouldn't say that a sociopath is incapable of rape because they don't see it the same way a normal person does. So why do we think a vampire wouldn't be raping someone when they force sex upon them against their will? A vampire in Whedon mythology seems to most closely realte to someone with an antisocial personality disorder. It's still rape. Just like if Spike killed her it would still be murder or if he stole something from her it would still be theft. The defenitions of these crimes don't have anything to do with the moral compass or lack thereof inherant in the person in question.

The definition of rape: The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

One definition of person: The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self

It was an attempted rape.