Spike's "attempted rape" of Buffy in Seeing Red

[THE BLUE]

Finally, Spike should be held accountable for what he did that night, same as every other thing he did. He should be held accountable for hurting Buffy but he should not be held accountable for rape. That involves intent to violate another human against their will. Spike truly believed Buffy wanted him. He was wrong and when he realised this he stopped and left. That is not the act of a rapist.

"Spike truly believed Buffy wanted him." That's what I meant. This is a very general statement given by all the rapists. "He wanted me, she wanted me". So, what happens, the raped one should prove that s/he is virtous enough. She becomes the suspected one; "was it her will", "did she stop him", "why not put a harder fight", it doesn't end. He hurt her, he raped her, the trauma is the same, the only thing hindered him from (let me quote it)

if he didn't get anything inserted.

was because she was lucky. That's all.

 

[Tucker's Cousin]

I think vampires are capable of telling right from wrong but they just don't care about it. Or perhaps, due to their demonicity (demonicness?), they prefer to revel in doing the wrong thing.

The problem for a re-ensouled vampire is that they remember the acts they committed as a vampire as if it was them doing them. This leads to a huge amount of guilt and the need to seek redemption. They, Angel and to a lesser extent Spike, take it upon themselves to atone for their crimes even though it's probably not necessary from an external standpoint. Vampires are accountable for their crimes, that's why there is a slayer. But the person who was once a vampire or the vampire given back their soul, is a different being, and not accountable. But how do you live a "normal" life remembering killing and torturing hundreds of people? You have to take some action to atone just to get a little peace from your conscience. It's like a drunk driver killing someone on the road or an industrial accident where one employee makes a mistake or is otherwise negligent and it results in the death of a workmate. In neither case did the person mean to kill anybody, but they did all the same, and that leads to them carrying a huge burden of guilt if they're a decent person. It effects the rest of their lives.

Souless vampire Spike is a bit unusual in that he does try to do the right thing when he cares about the being that may be effected by his actions. Interestingly, this is from the same ep, Entropy, in which he attempts to rape Buffy:

We see that we're in Spike's crypt. Spike is holding the camera up to look at it as Buffy stands confronting him.
BUFFY: It's a camera.
SPIKE: Yeah, I got that part. Why am I holding it?
BUFFY: Someone was using it to spy on me. On my house. (Spike frowning) Xander thinks it's you.
SPIKE: Oh, the great Xander thinks so! Shudder gasp! It must be true!
BUFFY: Spike-
SPIKE: That ponce has always had it for me. Every chance he gets, he sticks it-
He pauses, looking at Buffy.
SPIKE: (outraged) You believe him, don't you? You think I was spying on you.
Buffy doesn't answer.
SPIKE: You think I could do that?
BUFFY: Because you don't lie or cheat or steal or manipulate...
Spike gives her back the camera.
SPIKE: (quietly) I don't hurt you.

So Spike is doubly accountable for his actions later in the episode. Not only because vampires are accountable for all the wrong they do, but he is also going against his own set of morals. As I stated in my earlier post, he was confused and desperate when he did it, so maybe some leniency could be granted, but he's still guilty of attempted rape and should be punished appropriately. After he gets his soul back... well that's another kettle of fish.

 

[Caritas]

To THE BLUE:

I say attempted rape only because he never got around to forcing any actual sexual act on her. Attempted rape is no morally better than rape, it is morally the same thing, but considering that he was not actually able to overpower her and force her to do anything it was technically attempted rape. I'm just going by the real definitions of words, I don't see why you have to screw with my karma for it. I mean it's not as if I said it was excuseable or anything. It was attempted rape like trying to kill someone and not succeding is attempted murder... it may be legally different, but I'm not saying it's morally diferent. It is still just as deplorable an act and Spike is still responisble because though he lacked a soul he did not lack free will or reason.

Seriously, why screw with my karma when I'm just stating a fact? I agree it's a technicality. He intended to rape her therefore it was a horrible act.

Rape and attempted rape are the same thing morally in my opinion, so maybe this is where our understanding of each other breaks down... I just like to be as clear as possible and so to say he actually raped her might be missleading to someone who hasn't seen the episode in a while. The trauma, I agree is the same, as well as the moral implications on Spikes part.

But Whedon's never been about the legal recourse for things. I mean by all rights Angel should be in prison for life as well as Faith, but in Whedon mythology it's more about redemtion.

Is Spike, the newly-ensouled Spike responsible for the rape or attempted rape or whatever we want to call it (I'm sick of splitting hairs and that's all that rape/attempted rape argument is doing)? The short answer is yes... Angel takes responisbility for the actions of Angelus because they, in a sense, are the same person. Of course, it's impossible to really debate what these people are or aren't responsible for, because we also see the soul with a whole person sometimes in Whedon mytholgy. The truth is, though it pains me to say it, that Joss and the writters screw with just what a soul is a lot in the series. I tend to think that Angel and Spike feel responsible for the evil they did when they didn't have a soul because they know that deep down they are. Let's say that a vampire is a person who's soul has been replaced by a demon... they still have the same body, and more importantly the same brain. Now obviously in reality, as far as we know, a persons concience is part of their brain, but it seems in Whedon mythology that it's part of their soul. An ensouled vampire seems to be that same demon-human hybrid, with the soul returned. The demon is still there aparently, though this is contradicted sometimes by the writters (if we are being honest, not that its so important to thias discussion). So the human, the vamprie, and the ensouled vamprie share in common the biological brain and therefore, in that sense, are the same person. The whole person comits an act, brain and soul (as human), brain and demon (as vampire), brain and demon and soul (as ensouled vampire). The person in whatever mix, retains the guilt or innocence of actions taken.

Remember also, Spike, when he's fading as a 'ghost' at W&H is visitng a hell demension... he retains the guilt of his vampire self and does not get a champion's reward (that higher plain where Buffy was at peace and Cordelia was bored).

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Spike tried to rape buffy but he didn't. end. he tried and failed...

 

[Caritas]

Goddamnit BLUE did you even read my post? Please tell me what the hell you disagree with. I said it's the same thing. I said it's no better. I said he is responsible for it. What the hell do you disagree with?

 

[Caritas]

There is no question in my mind that it was attempted rape! It was, there is no other way to put it, from the moment he started in the bathroom until Buffy kicked him off his intention was to have sex with Buffy, it is clear in his eyes what he is attempting, and you can see the determination on his face! And since it was against her will that makes it attempted rape!

@THE BLUE

LOOK! You agreed with this post which is 110% in agreement with what I said and yet you disagree with me on the grounds that I say attempted rape. This post said it TWICE and you agreed. I said at least three times in my second post that it's the same crime... I agreed with you that raping her and trying to rape her were exactly the same thing. I agreed that's he's 100% responsible for it. Why do you keep disagreing with me?

 

[doppelgänger2]

Geeze Louise people! This is obviously a thread that angers a lot of people (including me) but couldn't we all just discuss matters in a more civilized, and might I add FRIENDLY, manner?

This discussion is going absolutely nowhere. It's just namecalling and throwing dirt in each others faces and stuff that kids do.

 

[eponinethen]

Geeze Louise people! This is obviously a thread that angers a lot of people (including me) but couldn't we all just discuss matters in a more civilized, and might I add FRIENDLY, manner?

This discussion is going absolutely nowhere. It's just namecalling and throwing dirt in each others faces and stuff that kids do.

😉
I know you think I'm a total a** cause of my opinions on this.. But as I was trying to say earlier, few people in this thread actually discuss the real issue.. Most people just point out details and misunderstand eachother, let's try and not misunderstand eachother on purpose at least alright..?
And like Fran (doppelgänger) said, trying to be a bit more friendly wouldn't hurt.. especially since I think the biggest reason why we all disagree, is because of misunderstandings, and rape is a topic many people react on.. and aren't really capable of discussing..

 

[jasmyne]

I dont think it was rape because when spike tryed to rape buffy she kicked him away

 

[doppelgänger2]

That is an already established fact 🙂

 

[Caritas]

Okay BLUE I'll bite... please explain what I said wrong. And don't do it in a reputation comment because I haven't made any point to disagree with in this post. Tell me exactly how I said things inccorectly or badly and if what you say makes sense I promise you will change my mind.

 

[Kiss The Librarian]

It was horrible what he did to her, but he was soulless, he was a vampire, he doens't have control, it's the same with Angelus, we didn't like what he did but we don't blame Angel, the one that has a soul because of what Angelus did.
And the important thing it's not he almost raped her but that without a soul then later he regretted!!!
That made him human for me, that med him good for me.

 

[The Arcane]

Geeze Louise people! This is obviously a thread that angers a lot of people (including me) but couldn't we all just discuss matters in a more civilized, and might I add FRIENDLY, manner?

This discussion is going absolutely nowhere. It's just namecalling and throwing dirt in each others faces and stuff that kids do.

Couldn't agree more! The reason i started this thread wasn't to have posters jumping down each others throats concerning minor details and semantics. This isn't even (technically) about whether what Spike did was rape or attempted rape.

The topic is about whether a soulless demon can be held accountable to our human laws and, if so, how can that be judged fairly when the vampire itself has no moral compass to truly understand right and wrong.

Fair enough, there are people here who obviously have extremely powerful opinions on this topic, which is understandable if they have experienced something like this in real life, but the actual topic isn't about real life. It's about a fictional reality where vampires and demons attack and kill humans on a regular basis. It's about whether it would really matter to a demon whether he was attacking someone for food or for sexual pleasure. Would a vampire or demon really see the difference?

I do think that 99% of the people who have discussed this get that point. They get the fact that nobody is suggesting for one second that real life rape is acceptable when they defend Spike on this one occasion. A real guy attempting a real rape in real life is never defendable. This isn't what we are discussin here however and it's a pity that the 1% of people who have turned this into a personal attack cannot understand that.

 

[+ Matt +]

As we have seen earlier, Spike has always seemed to take what he wants and as a vampire, like The Watcher said, has had no moral compass as to understanding what is right and what is wrong. However in his relationship with Buffy, she seemes to 'wear the pants' so to speak. He does what she wants and when she wants - he seems to play a very inferior role to her.

I think Spike's actions were wrong, however he is soulless creature of the night and Buffy was leading him on, so therefore her actions taken earlier were wrong also.

In my opinion, the scene was there to show the the emotional effects the last year had taken on Buffy and to show Spike's confusion with his inner fight between his newly found emotions and his 'demon' side which was heartless and showed no remorse. I suppose it was to promote their relationship also, but in a way the scene was an individual event for both...If that makes sense.

 

[Ethereal Warrior]

I agree that, being a vampire does not mean that he should be tried by human laws. But I do think that it was an attempted rape simply because he tried to force her to do something she didn't want.

I'm a huge fan of Spike and that scene was always difficult to watch. I think he was in a moment of pain and blind rage and that's why he attacked Buffy in that way. But I can't hold him accountable for long, though, because after the incident he feels such remorse and torment for what he tried to do to her. I think he wasn't acting in his right mind and was at the end of his rope at that moment. That's why it happened.

This can't justify saying that it was okay for him to do what he did but he was sorry for it and attempted to make up for it.

 

[Nighthawk]

First I think I'll clearly state which side of the argument I'm on. IT WAS ATTEMPTED RAPE! And I think we should all keep in mind that this is a very complicated argument with many blurry lines.

Now, The Watcher, you bring up some really good points and an interesting perspective on the debate, but I think where you fall short is that you think just because Spike is a vampire/demon his crimes don't have a name. Murder, Rape, and Torture all exist to demons. Whether or not the views on such crimes are interpreted differently by each species (human/demon) and a demon is inclined to do evil doesn't strip a crime of its name and it doesn't mean that what Spike did wasn't attempted rape. I don't think I can state that more clearly. lol.

That being said, no he cannot, and isn't, governed by human laws. He is a demon. Different rules do apply. That's where the slayer and the council come in. They handle the crimes of demons with their own laws. But this is where one of those blurry lines creeps in. Buffy should have slayed (a long time ago) him but she had her reasons for not doing so. Doesn't change the fact that it was attempted rape.

You also say Spike had little or no moral compass to guide him while he was forcing himself, so then what drove him to do all the good he did previously? He wanted to change himself for the better. He wanted to be the man he thought Buffy deserved, and he had these feelings long before he went to get his soul back since he went against what he as a demon is predisposed to do and fought the good fight along with the scoobies. That takes a lot of moral compass, he clearly new the difference between right/good and wrong/evil. But I won't forget he's a demon, he is predisposed to do evil, but he fought against that. How could he do that if he did not know the difference? You could say the chip, but all the chip did was prevent him from harming humans it did NOT force him to do the good he did, he CHOSE to do that. Just like he CHOSE to force himself on Buffy. Whether or not he knew at the time what he was doing (and most rapist don't) DOESN'T change the fact that it was attempted rape.

So yes I do think Spike is to blame for the attempted rape of Buffy. Whether he thought what he was doing was right or not, whether the demon in him tells him it's ok, the crime has a name and it is what it is.

I have a question for you Watcher. If it wasn't attempted rape, what was it? You say he was acting on his primal instincts. When you say primal instincts I think survival, but he wasn't trying to feed. Are you referring to the fact that he's evil and doing wrong comes natural to him? Ok, I'll give you that. But then what did he do? Give it a name. You also say vampires aren't held accountable for the murder/feeding (see what I did there? human version/demon version) of a human, but they are! Buffy, slayer of the vam-pires holds them accountable, she slays them! How much more accountable can they be held?

And now I'm gonna pick a bone with you Watcher, because you say you don't want to dwell too much on Buffy's part in the matter, but then you go on and ask how is Spike supposed to tell the difference between the "no" that night and all the "no's" he had heard Buffy say before. That's not fair! We all know Buffy had a HUGE roll in this (and I think we should open a thread on that because that would really be interesting) but it seems to me like you're looking for some leniency towards Spike as if he were the victim! He tried to rape Buffy. It's not so clear-cut but"¦it is!

ATTEMPTED RAPE, ATTEMPTED RAPE, 1000 TIMES ATTEMTED RAPE!

 

[The Arcane]

Ooooh, good argument! 🙂

Although i would agree that what he did was wrong, in it's own context, i cannot and probably will never be able to put the events of that evening into the same category as rape, simply because rape is a crime as defined by mankind. Spike was not a man that night, he was a demon.

It comes down to what he was capable of accepting in his mind. Whilst there was certainly always something different about Spike, in that he was clearly a much more ensouled (for want of a better term) vampire than what we normally see on Buffy, the fact remains that he did not possess a soul. As Angel explained right back in the first season that means that he was not capable of experiencing guilt, at least not in a human way.

As human as Spike tried to become in seasons five and six a hell of a lot of it was a pretence, even to himself. He was in a situation that no vampire had ever been in before. He still had all the desires and motivations of the killer he was but was incapable of acting on them. When he believed that his chip was inactive in Smashed he went straight back to trying to feed. Beyond a momentary internal conflict he had no thoughts of staying on the side of the good guys. He was a vampire and his prison door had just been opened so all pretence of being a hero, even to himself, could be forgotten.

That is what people sometimes forget. That Spike wasn't actually ever wanting to be good. Had the chip never entered his brain then he would have continued to try to kill Buffy, not sleep with her. It was the chip that caused him to confuse his obsession with Buffy as a target to one of false emotion. As Drusilla had told him, Buffy had become something of a goal for him, but once he was no longer able to kill her that target became an object of desire in his confused mind. I've no doubt that by the end of the fifth season that confusion had convinced even himself that it was love he felt for her but everything we saw over seasons five and six showed that it was obsession.

Then in season six Buffy confused matters even further in his mind by seeming to return those feelings. By letting Spike believe that she shared this "affection" it only added to the delusions in Spike's mind that these feelings he had were true. Then he discovered that he was able to hurt Buffy, of all people. The person that he had been convincing himself that he loved for the last year or more was the one human that he could attack. Was that enough for him to keep his demon nature in check? Nope!

The very first thing he does is attack Buffy again. Why? Because he is a demon! That is what he does and so his "feelings" for Buffy are pushed away and he goes out to find her and hurt her, possibly kill. It was only when Buffy turned the fight into sex that the confusion returned and his obsession with Buffy turned back into false affection.

After that you had occasion after occasion of Buffy pushing Spike away only for Spike to push back and for them to have sex. Every time it resulted in the same thing. Buffy would give in and they would end up either back at Spike's crypt or against the wall of the Doublemeat Palace. That was the only point of reference that Spike had to their relationship. That Buffy needed him to push in order to give in to what he believed she wanted.

So we come to that night in the bathroom. Exact same circumstances arise. Spike turns up and fully expects Buffy to simply tell him to get lost, same as all the times before. Spike starts to get physical, same as all the times before. Sooner or later Buffy gives in and they end up on the bathroom floor together, same as all the times before. Except this time she resists more, not giving in so easily. How is Spike, an emotionally confused demon, expected to deal with that in his mind? Would you imagine that his first thought is to back away and leave?

Of course not! As a demon his first thought is to continue to push for what he wants. Every single time before this is what Buffy has wanted him to do so why not now?

It is only once Buffy has kicked him away that he is able to gain control of his demonic side and see the terror on Buffy's face. As i've said in this thread before, i truly believe that it was that exact moment that led Spike to question the anomoly that he had become and seek out the answers that only his soul could provide.

But, all of that said, the only way that you can describe the actions of that night as rape is if you describe every time they had sex prior to that as rape too, because to Spike his actions were no different.

 

[Nighthawk]

Well like I said the crime needs a name. If not attempted rape then what? I don't think it matters who defined the term. It just is what it is.

As for Spike going back to his usual ways in Smashed, I never denied he was a demon and I think the only reason why he tried to go back to who he was before the chip was because Buffy had just rejected him. Had Buffy returned those feelings and never denied him I think he still would have tried to be a good man. And no, Spike never wanted to be good. It was a choice that just presented itself I know that. And I do think that the love/lust he felt for Buffy was enough to keep his demon nature in check, again it's just that Buffy had recently rejected him. After all he was still very much a demon when he decided to get his soul. And yes I know that Buffy would push him away before she gave in but did she ever plead and beg him to stop the way she did in the bathroom? And again I'm not denying his demon nature no I don't expect him to just leave it still doesn't make it right it still does not make it attempted rape. As for the answers only his soul could provide, I don't think it was about answers at all. I think it was about pleasing Buffy. He said it. Make me a man so Buffy can get what she deserves"¦I paraphrase, but it's pretty much what he says. Spike probably thought that's since she was with Angel and Angel had a soul that he should have a soul, that's the only way he could compete with Angel.

And no none of their previous encounters were rape because Buffy gave in those other times and agreed. It doesn't matter if Spike's actions were no different then before. At that moment Buffy really meant no and NO MEANS NO!

 

[The Arcane]

And no none of their previous encounters were rape because Buffy gave in those other times and agreed. It doesn't matter if Spike's actions were no different then before. At that moment Buffy really meant no and NO MEANS NO!

See, this is were the lines begin to blur. Rape, like any other crime, is about intent. To convict someone in the human world of rape you have to prove that the other party did not want the act to go ahead. How could Spike honestly have known that Buffy wasn't going to suddenly jump his bones that night? She had done every single other time in those exact circumstances.

In all the previous occasions, Buffy gave in eventually. To begin with she would resist and push him away but sooner or later she would give in and they would end up having sex.

The only difference that night was that she didn't eventually change her mind. Spike was only doing what he assumed Buffy expected of him, because that was their own version of foreplay, or at least it had always been before. A little bit of violence before they had sex was the norm.

Even for a human you would have to agree that this situation would have been confusing but for a soulless demon it would be impossible to understand that Buffy's "no" that night was any different to her "no's" all the times before.

So i go back to what i said previously. Spike was doing the same thing he always did during their sexual encounters. Rightly or wrongly, that is how their physical relationship was born. Unless you class every single time that Spike had pushed Buffy into sex as rape then you cannot class his exact same actions that night as rape either, because to Spike there was no way of telling the difference.

 

[Nighthawk]

I did say that there were many blurry lines to this argument and yes Buffy's Hot/Cold attitude is one of those lines.

I get that their foreplay did involve Buffy rejecting him and pushing him away I'll give you that. But the way you say that the ONLY difference is she didn't change her mind baffles me as if it were an insignificant detail. IT IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DETAIL. It is why it's attempted race. It is what makes this incident different from the others.

And whether Spike thought what he was doing was ok AT THE MOMENT doesn't mean that everything is ok. When Buffy kicks him off he says:

Spike: Buffy, my god, I didn't-

He knew what just happened and he knew it was wrong. Doesn't matter if he realised it during or after, it was attempted rape!